SPare Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 OK- Canadian here stirring up the pot. Still, something's been nagging at me and I'm wondering if it's just me. This year George Bush is not an unassaible incumbent. By all rights, the Democrats should be wiping the floor with him. Instead, they pick up John Kerry, who to my mind is a terrible candidate. Let's drop all the partisan posturing for a minute- 1. John Kerry likes to play issues based on what's going to make him most popular at that moment. He'll be in favour of something, then against it, and then for it again. It seems to be hardwired into his brain to just say whatever people think he should say. It leads to the impression, and I don't think it's particularly wrong, that he just doesn't have a particular set of beliefs that won't be compromised in the pursuit of power. 2. John Kerry has not had a record of leadership. Yes, he's been a US senator for a long time, and before that was Dukakis' lieutenant governor, but really, before last year at this time, could you really have picked him out from a crowd, or identified a real accomplishment of his (other than having a name really similar to Senator Bob Kerrey- apparently even his staff has this problem...). There are lots of Senators that you just know about because they have initiative in public affairs. Pre 2003 Kerry was a face in the crowd (albeit a pretty select crowd) 3. Kerry's a pretty wooden speaker. Heck, Charlie McCarthy looks real and authentic next to Kerry. If you have an issue that you want to persuade people about, he's about the last guy you want to do it. I could go on, but I think that you can probably get my drift... End of the day, John Kerry is the Democratic candidate not so much because the party fell in love with him, but because the adults at the table decided that Angry Howard Dean wasn't going to have a chance to beat Bush (he'd put off too many moderate voters). So, people lined up for Kerry simply because he was anointed as the "electable" candidate. Compared to Dean, perhaps he is, but for the reasons I list above, I don't even think he's particularly good on these terms. It just illustrates the dangers of group think. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I ask you all to look into your hearts before you respond and really tell me why I'm wrong in stating the above. Also, I have no interest in hearing about Bush's weaknesses in responses. I know that he's no perfect candidate- I just want to know a reason why someone should vote FOR Kerry, as opposed to AGAINST Bush, or simply because Kerry has a D beside his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 If John Kerry didnt say another word or put out another commercial... He will win... Stop saluting, stop saying reporting for duty, stop saying lietenant Kerry.. Just talk about the future only... Talk about the raising taxes for 200k+ Talk about giving corps a tax break to bring jobs back to the U.S. Talk about bringing Germany/Russia/China/France into Iraq Talk about re-evaluating no child left behind to see if it can be funded as it should have been Talk about a womans right to chose Talk about the Israel/Palestine/Iran situation... I don't agree with some of the above but he'd be better off.. He's down 19 points to the veterans and needs to push through that and moveon.org to other issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Happy Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I totally agree with you. This election should have been a landslide for the Democrats. John Kerry is one of the worst possible candidates they could have had. To me, it shows that they assumed whoever they put up as a candidate would automatically win. They got greedy. That mistake could end up costing them the election. Are John Kerry and Howard Dean really the best candidates for President that party has to offer? If so, that is pretty sad, but I don't believe it. I have been trying for a long time to get people to say a reason to vote FOR Kerry. The only reason I have heard: He is a Vietnam War hero. I disagree with you about Kerry's beliefs. I think he does have a strong set of beliefs. He just won't publicly admit what they are because they are not very politically viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Duckus Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I support Kerry and would love to see him win the election. However, during the primaries he was IN NO WAY MY NUMBER ONE GUY. I really liked Edwards and I think he would have run a great campaign. I think Kerry has a lot of problems however I also think no matter who the Democrats had chosen Karl Rove (in my opinion the most evil man in politics - his record speaks for itself) would have destroyed in character assassinations any candidate chosen. However, I don’t think any democracy would argue that Kerry is running a good campaign. Right now it is pretty miserable to ok, I hope he can turn it around in the next few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I agree about John Kerry not necessarily being a "strong" candidate, but I doubt that a "stronger" candidate would be doing much better at this point. This race is very different than any in the past. Historically, at this point in presidential races about a third of likely voters are still undecided. However, right now there is only 4 percent who are undecided, and nine out of ten likely voters who are leaning one way or another have said that it is highly unlikely they will change there vote. Kerry's deficiencies aside, politically this country is very divided. This election will come down to which party gets out there base successfully, the direction independents swing in a few battleground states, and that's basically it. Some pundits may be talking trash about Kerry since he failed to gain a significant bounce following the convention, but if you look at some critical states (i.e. Florida, Ohio), Kerry has taken a lead that exceeds the margin of error (7 pts in Florida). Kerry is no Clinton, but in the current political climate, no candidate could possibly gain a huge lead at this stage in the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Duckus Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 "I have been trying for a long time to get people to say a reason to vote FOR Kerry. The only reason I have heard: He is a Vietnam War hero." I would say that the reasons I am voting for Kerry are based more on domestic issues than national ones. I believe both candidates understand what world we live in now post Sept. 11 and I cannot see either not doing their very best to insure our national security. Saying that the domestic issues that I support Kerry on are as follows: A woman’s right to chose Heath care for everyone Rolling back the tax cuts for the top 1% Cutting the outrages defect Improving the environment Supporting public education (not doing vouchers) There are others but those are th major ones I would say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I have always been a kerry supporter. I was worried for a time that he was going to lose to dean, but I was very happy to see that he came back strong. Two things I have always liked about kerry. He is smarter than anyone else in this election. Democrats who ran against him included. He sees that there are two sides to every issue. To many that makes him a flip flopper. I see it as a plus. But this stuff hasn't changed, and you're really saying all the things that everyone else has said, and so am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Originally posted by SPare Let's drop all the partisan posturing for a minute- When you are ready to follow that statement with something other then "partisan posturing" let me know. All you gave us is conservative thinking 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rafterman Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Kerry was DEAD in the water and managed to come back and get the nod. If he does well in the debates he could end up winning the Gen. big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsofwashington Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 When was the last time we had a president actually worth voting for? Nothing new this election. The most powerful country in the world and we can't even get a decent man to run it. Sheeeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLusby Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Duckus [b Heath care for everyone Rolling back the tax cuts for the top 1% Cutting the outrages defect Improving the environment Supporting public education (not doing vouchers) There are others but those are th major ones I would say.... [/b] Why do you want socialized medicine? Why do you want to penalize the successful, do you not think you have a chance to make $200k+? The environment is fine and very resilient. Public education is a massive failure. Here in the suburbs of Atlanta it costs the county over $13k per student and that does not count the capital costs of the buildings. A good private school costs $8-15k. How can they provide a better education at a lower cost? Vouchers will remove the ineffiencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Rafterman Kerry was DEAD in the water and managed to come back and get the nod. If he does well in the debates he could end up winning the Gen. big. You do realize he came back because of the Dean Scream: THe Media ran with that SOOOO much it ruined him. Howard Stern still plays it.. It's a shame he lost it because of a sound bite...... If he could just get Bush to give the definition of sovereignty again (yes I had to go look up the spelling) .. He will have a chance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Duckus Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Duckus [b Heath care for everyone Rolling back the tax cuts for the top 1% Cutting the outrages defect Improving the environment Supporting public education (not doing vouchers) There are others but those are the major ones I would say.... [/b] Originally posted by TLusby Why do you want socialized medicine? Why do you want to penalize the successful, do you not think you have a chance to make $200k+? The environment is fine and very resilient. Public education is a massive failure. Here in the suburbs of Atlanta it costs the county over $13k per student and that does not count the capital costs of the buildings. A good private school costs $8-15k. How can they provide a better education at a lower cost? Vouchers will remove the ineffiencies. Because those are my opinions. I think everyone who is born in the USA should have health care, I think that the top %1 has a responsibility that comes with their wealth (I hope I do make over 200K a year, however I won't mind giving back when I do), and I personally believe public education needs improvement but vouchers only perpetuate the problem. These are ideological beliefs that you and me are not going to agree on, and that is the reason you are going to vote for Bush and I am going to vote for Kerry. Someone asked why anyone would vote for Kerry and those are the reasons. Kerry's views on the top 5 domestic issues I care about are very close to mine. I would love for him to be against the death penalty however I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLusby Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Duckus: I respect your opinion but I just wonder where our younger generation gets this attitude that the government is the provider for all. I guess the public schools just do not teach what responsibilities the government should obligate itself to. I can assure you that it doesn't provide healthcare, social security, or any other liberal social platforms. We need to get this country back to its premise in "the constitution" and start having our citizens be responsible for themselves without government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by TLusby Duckus: I respect your opinion but I just wonder where our younger generation gets this attitude that the government is the provider for all. The same place the older generation got the opinion that the government should defend profiteering. After all we have the older crowd to thank for the current state of health care. Have I thanked you yet? No? Good. Our own friggin companies charge us 3 tmes as much as they charge others. Socialized med is a knee jerk reaction to the horrible system currently in place. Sure its "the best" in the world, but only for about 1% of the country. A system that serves the few is a system that doesn't work. Originally posted by TLusby I guess the public schools just do not teach what responsibilities the government should obligate itself to. clerly the reason we don't want vouchers is because any person worth the stem cells he used up to survive understands that profit seeking does not close the gap between wealth classes it expands it. We don't want to increase the disadvantages poor kids have, and no I don't buy that private schools will fix that because companies only do what's right when big brother is watching. The second the nation looks at another issue willbecome a friggin nightmare. Originally posted by TLusby I can assure you that it doesn't provide healthcare, social security, or any other liberal social platforms. We need to get this country back to its premise in "the constitution" and start having our citizens be responsible for themselves without government. Name the year you want to "go back" to. Let's discuss how great it was back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Destino The same place the older generation got the opinion that the government should defend profiteering. After all we have the older crowd to thank for the current state of health care. Have I thanked you yet? No? Good. Our own friggin companies charge us 3 tmes as much as they charge others. Socialized med is a knee jerk reaction to the horrible system currently in place. Sure its "the best" in the world, but only for about 1% of the country. A system that serves the few is a system that doesn't work. clerly the reason we don't want vouchers is because any person worth the stem cells he used up to survive understands that profit seeking does not close the gap between wealth classes it expands it. We don't want to increase the disadvantages poor kids have, and no I don't buy that private schools will fix that because companies only do what's right when big brother is watching. The second the nation looks at another issue willbecome a friggin nightmare. Name the year you want to "go back" to. Let's discuss how great it was back then. Why do you routinely return someone's thoughts with negative vagaries that are at times just plain rude? Just curious, but it seems counterproductive unless you are just here for the sophistry of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Stu Why do you routinely return someone's thoughts with negative vagaries that are at times just plain rude? Just curious, but it seems counterproductive unless you are just here for the sophistry of it all. My post was no more rude then the one I replied to. I challenged his ideas and views no less harshly then he did mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Destino My post was no more rude then the one I replied to. I challenged his ideas and views no less harshly then he did mine. Interesting response, destino. Maybe a more compassionate and kinder response would yield a better response and a most productive discussion. Just sayin'. I don't have all night to debate the pragmatics of an intellectual argument. Just fun bro. Can ya keep it at that? Remember, this is a test, this is only a test from the American discussion board federation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by phanatic Interesting response, destino. Maybe a more compassionate and kinder response would yield a better response and a most productive discussion. I could be nicer. Then again so could they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Destino The only problem is I disagree with that kind of thinking. I see right wingers calling anything left wing all sorts of fun stuff. But when you return the favor it's like you insulted their mother. No its asinine from no matter what side of the fence it comes. It's a debate, not an english football match. Don't be such a passenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Destino The only problem is I disagree with that kind of thinking. I see right wingers calling anything left wing all sorts of fun stuff. But when you return the favor it's like you insulted their mother. Forget that. Agreed, but that definitely goes both ways. That's simple human nature when a deep rooted discussion takes place. It's not a "unique" response from any side, including those in fringe groups. If you are incapable of seeing the $hit slinging going on from BOTH sides then you have been sucked into the fold. It's par for the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by Destino I could be nicer. Then again so could they. Agree both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Its pretty simple TLusby about "my generation" Nobody has ever taught us personal responsibility. Ever. We always have had someone else to fault or blame or point fingers at. The kids that I have gone to school with have never been taught to look in the mirror. So we blame the gov't. Or rely on it. And that is going to be the downfall of this nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan Its pretty simple TLusby about "my generation" Nobody has ever taught us personal responsibility. Ever. We always have had someone else to fault or blame or point fingers at. The kids that I have gone to school with have never been taught to look in the mirror. So we blame the gov't. Or rely on it. And that is going to be the downfall of this nation You have no idea how right you are!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Duckus Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 "The kids that I have gone to school with have never been taught to look in the mirror. So we blame the gov't. Or rely on it" I understand where you are coming from, however to say that this generation has relied on the government and to make the claim that we are the only generation to do so is a far far stretch. The “older generations” relied on it far more than this generation ever has. Remember what pulled up out of the Great Depression, relying on the government to fix the social problems facing the nation. Thats where the generation of today gets this crazy idea that the government is supposed to play an active role, from the generations before us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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