bulldog Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 After a 5-2 start with every bounce of the ball going their way, the Chargers are now in danger of falling into the cellar of the AFC West if the Chiefs go on an even modest winning streak to end the season. How quickly have the mighty fallen Remember after Week 1 all the hullabaloo from Chris Berman and others about payback for Norv against the Redskins? Now, the Chargers are mired in a 6 game losing streak that reminds me of the kinds of second half collapses that inevitably happened to Norv Turner teams here in DC. There was the 7-1 start in 1996. The 4-1 start in 1997. The 6-2 start in 2000. The common thread? Even with those fast starts and seemingly cat-bird seat positions, the club failed to make the playoffs in ANY of those seasons. bon appetit, SD fans. Maybe you too can now walk around shaking your head saying to yourselves "don't we have too much talent to be just 5-8?"........................... it used to be an annual rite of passage around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF4L Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 bulldog Poor old Norv. It makes you feel bad for him, because you know his guys are out there competing and playing hard. For one reason or another, though, they're just not getting it done on the field and coming up a little short. It's tough out there. Man, I used to hate it when that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fuji869 Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 That is one thing that made me so mad before the season opener was how Sports Center and other sports shows tried to give the “Poor Norv Turner” image. Mr. Snyder tries to put together a real life fantasy football team to buy a Super Bowl Championship and when it fails he fires the poor head coach. The Turner Years were marked by less than par play, 3 second half season collapses and one playoff appearance in seven seasons. The last time I checked that would get a any professional head coach fired! If Mr. Snyder would have bought the team sooner after the end of the 1998 Season he would have fired Norv immediately following the season and maybe replaced him with Holmgrin or Seifert (I only heard that through the grapevine)? But the ownership battle lagged on he bought the team too close to the start of the 1999 Season to make a coaching change. The ONLY reason that Norv Turner lasted so long as the Redskins Head Coach is John Kent Cooke liked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 John Kent Cooke is an example of what is wrong with inherited wealth. In some cases you get the second generation that is very entrepreneurial and builds the family business up from where his father ended. More often, the second generation has grown up easy and has been given jobs all the way up the ladder that have not really been earned. Then when it comes time for that person to exercise some executive authority, everyone finds that he or she for that matter, is singularly incapable of doing so effectively and organizational paralysis sets in. The minute that Cooke said that wins and losses were not going to be the determining factor in how long Norv was coach of the Redskins, he had to go. You can't run a business admitting that performance is anything less than a primary goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 The Chargers also are demonstrating another Norv trend - they are 1-4 in their division. But we're carrying this too far. Norv ain't the head coach, he's the OC. And his offense is ranked 13th in yardage and 9th in points per game. He has the 5th ranked rushing game in the NFL. I'm no Norv fan, but he can't carry the full burden of the Charger's record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fuji869 Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 I know Terry but we are just venting 7 years of misfortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennesseeCarl Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 You know, those Eagles were awfully tough out there today. I thought we competed hard. We just have to execute better. The further away we get from the Norv Era, the more disdain I have for his 'genius'. How could we have endured that stuff for 7 seasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 I agree that Norv is only the OC, but the way the press kept building up this 'revenge' angle for the game you would have thought it was Bellichick returning to New York to face the Jets for the first time. Mike Reilly is another Norv. Quiet, polite, a humble guy for the most part. He just can't get his team to win football games consistently. He has the inspirational ability of a grapefruit. The joke will be if Norv takes over for him. They are mirror images of each other, although Emmitt and Troy got Norv a Super Bowl ring to sport. And he has been living off that one accomplishment for the past 8 or 9 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 You know what bulldog, your life is going to be so much better and so much more relaxing when you get over your Norvitis. I think a way to solve that problem is to develop Darrell Greens immune system. When asked on NFL films about plays where he was burnt for TD's, Green simply replied "I have never been beaten deep." As for Norv, well, being a coach, I can argue with the best about his style and its production, but the thing that has always cost Norv, is his lack of willingness to participate and truely understand his teams defense here in Washington. His offense was always explosive, we just didn't have the talent to execute. Sure, go ahead and be the armchair QB or coach and nail to him everything that was wrong with our teams the last 7 years. Just don't come to me and say we had the talent level for his first 5 years and wonder why he couldn't produce at a high level. Also, please stop using a HOF name or a multiple pro-bowl player as examples that we are not able to be a powerhouse team because the players we have don't meet up to that standard. It is ridiculous to even compare. Was Norv a Joe Gibbs? Hell no. However, he deserves something for making a rookie Running Back one of the top 5 rushers in the league. He has gone in a made a team that had NO offense last year into a top 10 offense with rookies and really old farts. Did he do it for us? No. Shula didn't do it for the Colts either. Who gives a crap. It sucked but dosen't mean we won't prevail now. I still would rather deal with Norv's offense than Jimmy Rayes. Hopefully, that will change and we can get out of this vanilla offense soon. Norv's talent was only finally being seen and used his last 2 years here. Most of that is his fault. Bad decisions on personel and the inablitity to get a Ray Rhodes type of Defensive Cordinator in here until the end of his tenure. Should he have been fired? Had we not made the playoffs, your damn right he should have. That was his last straw. It was his own stupidity that cost us games in not solidifing a Kicker last year. Did Norv blow our Salary Cap and put Marty in the position that he was at the begining of this year? No. In the end we will find that Mr Snyder probably had more to do with things then he'll ever admit. Who knows what Norv would of really done had he had a bit more say in those decisions? Would Brad Johnson have been different with no Jeff George around? Would Joe Nedney really have come here as long as Snyder didn't keep mouthing off to agents around the league? Millions of quesitons will go unanswered. We can only speculate. But you know what, its over and done. The man can take his limited Head Coaching abilities and try it elsewhere. We have a proven coach in Marty who is not straying from his system. Even after all the hub bub with meetings and media flak, Marty basically stayed the same. Samuels even mentioned it in an article not to long ago. Now, we are in playoff hunt. Marty has done what he has done and we are better for it. Do we have all the personel we need to make it happen? No one knows because it hasn't happened yet. We take one game at a time, one qtr at a time, one play at a time. You win all the battles you can in this league. Thats why Marty is already doing better than Norv. He is winning the small battles right now. He has a huge game coming up. Lets see what happens. Its good Norv is gone. We needed a change of pace and we actually got it by slowing down and getting back to basics. However, ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 look, this reaction was to be expected. You're not going to have every publication from the Sporting News to the ESPN website laughing about the revenge butt-kicking Norv handed us on opening day and not expect some of us to remember that now that his team is back to being the cellar-dweller it has been for much of the past 5-7 years. What goes around comes around. Norv took absolutely no responsibility for what happened here in DC and left acting as if he were a wounded animal that had been abused for years and was getting a raw deal. Those of us that watched this tragi-drama for 7 years knew that wasn't the case. He got to choose Shuler and Westbrook. He envisioned them being another Aikman to Irvin combination. It didn't work out. He failed to overcome those selections with moves in free agency to get a Rich Gannon or Joe Horn type player that could help compensate. Instead he tethered the team to Gus Frerotte after Shuler and refused to bring in a veteran qb who could make plays downfield. Finally, when that move was made (three years too late) to get Brad Johnson, the team gave up 3 high picks for a player that had not even been a consistent starter in Minnesota. He was in and out of the lineup due to injuries (surprise as to why Minny was willing to let him go) and had only started for 2 years in the NFL through 1998. Meanwhile other teams such as Oakland and the Jets got veteran qb's in free agency for no compensation and modest salaries. Players that would lead their teams to division titles and playoff games. The Jaguars got Mark Brunell for a #3 and #5. The Saints got Aaron Brooks for about the same price. Brady was a #6 pick. As mentioned Gannon and Testaverde were street free agents. And yet the qb "guru" couldn't find a playoff caliber starter for less than a #1, #2 and #3? What a joke. And for those who point to Trent Green, just remember that old Norv had Green as the #3 quarterback all through 1996-7 when Gus Frerotte and Jeff Hostetler were slamming their heads against stadium walls and short-hopping balls all over the field. This was after Sonny Jurgensen said Green had been the best quarterback in camp for two years. Only in 1998 when Frerotte had stunk for over a year did Norv insert Green in the lineup as a last resort in a season gone south. No, there was no Jeff Garcia type silver lining to the Norv cloud. The one quarterback we got who was of at least starting NFL caliber, Johnson, we paid through the nose for. There were no bargains under Norv. Just a lot of costume jewelry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Another laugh: During the Philly game yesterday, one of the commentators mentioned that Norv is going to "Groom Drew Brees into the next great QB," or something like that. What a joke. This is the same "offensive genius" that groomed Heath Shuler into a cattle farmer, Gus Frerotte into a career backup, and Trent Green into an overrated QB wallowing in his own filth in KC. The way the press puts up their dukes when Turner is attacked is ridiculous. They act as though he's Mother Teresa. He was such a "nice guy" that they all claimed he didn't deserve to be fired. Well, he was an awful coach! Who cares if you're a nice guy? Perhaps you should become a waiter! Lord, give me a break. Screw Norv Turner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 ok, violence. calm down now ------------------ <IMG SRC="http://www.tenaciousd.com/images/cool2.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Absolutely everything you have said bulldog is true. Just make sure you put the blame where it is deserved. Norv's offense in San Diego is doing enough to win. At least in theory. I would have to say that having Butler in San Diego will make things different for Norv, even if he takes the Head Coaching job. Like I said, it is good that Norv is gone. Lets not forget though, all the circumstances that made up the decisions he made. For instance, you bulldog are a major backer of letting young guys get their shot and rightfully so. Everything can't be dependent on living with FA's. However, don't go contridicting yourself like a true media type and say that Norv should of gone after vetren players when he was trying to establish a young core of players to immulate the Cowboys success with Akiman, Smith and Irvin. It was worth the roll of the dice and Shuler had shown the ability to make things happen in big games in college. Thats all you get to go off of in the draft. Let me give an example From the The Sporting News from 1999: "The Raiders took a huge gamble in jettisoning teh undeniable physical gifts of Jeff George for Gannon. They're paying $16 million over four years to a Quaterback who never has been the undisputed starter on any of his previous three teams, the last being the Chiefs." Now it goes on to say that Gruden got Gannon because he was moblie in the pocket. Turner never looked for that. He wanted a big, stand in the pocket QB. Not sure why he chose Shuler over Dilfer. Neither here nor there, it is important to be smart when throwing out these huge claims about missed opportunities. 29 other teams missed out also. You go with what you think can make things work. Norv goofed. Just like 30 other teams do every year after the Super Bowl is played. I have been watching the Skins decidely since they trounced the Saints in the opener in 75. I think the Score was 41-3. Anyway, Norv's time here was by far the most frustrating, but I have also learned that many things make up the team bailing out in a season. The Head Coach just gets in the a$$ when things blow up. Rightfully so. Thats the chance you take being one. ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability." [ by UtahRedskins on December 10, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Originally posted by UtahRedskins:However, he deserves something for making a rookie Running Back one of the top 5 rushers in the league. He has gone in a made a team that had NO offense last year into a top 10 offense with rookies and really old farts. Did he do it for us? No. Shula didn't do it for the Colts either. Who gives a crap. It sucked but dosen't mean we won't prevail now. I still would rather deal with Norv's offense than Jimmy Rayes. Hopefully, that will change and we can get out of this vanilla offense soon. This begs for a response. "making a rookie Running Back one of the top 5 rushers in the league"?- I don't suppose you mean LaDanian Tomlinson, he of the 3.5 yards per carry average, do you? Tomlinson is a legit NFL starter, and will likely be good for a long time. But if Norv's proven anything it is that you can rack up a lot of yardage in the running game by sticking with it and handing the ball to your RB, even if it doesn't generate a large average. Too bad he forgot that all too often in the second half of games despite having one of the best power running backs in the league in Stephen Davis. As much as we've criticized Jimmy Raye, at least he seems to remember where his offense's bread is buttered - in the running game. As for transforming the SD offense, there are two differences in it, neither of which are attributable to Norv. Doug Flutie, who actually has a clue at QB and who has always been known for inspiring his teams and making plays, and Tomlinson. Both were added by GM John Butler, not by Norv. Norv is an extremely talented game planner. He can be a very good play caller, when he doesn't lose his head during a game. This means that he can be a very solid offensive coordinator. However, he's a crappy head coach, and he's a poor talent evaluator. And when push comes to shove, he side steps blame (in his sweet, humble "poor Norv" way) and accuses others of backstabbing him. Screw him. We don't need that anymore. ------------------ "Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor ---------------------- "I fear we've awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve." - Japanese Imperial Admiral Yamamoto, after hearing that the Japanese declaration of war failed to reach the U.S. government before the attack upon Pearl Harbor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoR Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 As for transforming the SD offense, there are two differences in it, neither of which are attributable to Norv. Doug Flutie, who actually has a clue at QB and who has always been known for inspiring his teams and making plays, and Tomlinson. Both were added by GM John Butler, not by Norv Word out of San Diego is that Flutie went to Butler and complained about Norv's offense. Quote from a SD fan: "Flutie is lobbying against Norv as the next head coach, I'm sure Norv loved that." Looks like Norv will have another QB controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 10, 2001 Author Share Posted December 10, 2001 Norv was not responsible for every mistake the Redskins made in 7 years, granted. BUT, Norv influenced and persuaded management over time to rid the team of both players he felt were unsuitable and coaches as well as front office personnel. At the end of the day, Norv was left standing all alone in the center of the field with the finger pointing at him. There was simply no one else left to blame. What I didn't respect about Norv in the end was the fact that if he couldn't handle having an owner like Dan Snyder he should have quit. Bill Parcells did that in New England when Bob Kraft wanted to be involved in drafting and trading players. Instead he stuck around and took the money, but then badmouthed the organization off the record and to colleagues around the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Well said bulldog. You are absolutely correct. When the day ended, Norv was to blame. He got his just due in that situation. redman, that offense is all Norv. If you want a classic case answer for not using the people you have, take a look at us. Norv is using the people he has and so that is why the offense is moving the ball and scoring points. He is doing what he does best and that is concern himself with just the offense and not worry about anything else. Now, as for giving up on Davis too much in the past? He was second in the league in 99 with 1300 yds and 17 TDs in 14 games. 2000 he had 1300 yds and 11 TD's in 15 games. He made his back productive. Sure, there were times to run when he passed and vice versa. But 20/20 hindsight is always perfect. ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe Posted December 11, 2001 Share Posted December 11, 2001 I think that everyone here pretty much knew that San Diego was going to fall on it's collective face as the season progressed. I still beleive that Norv will get a second opportunity to be a head coach, much to the eventual regret of the owner who hires him, but I don't see it happening in San Diego now. And Bulldog, remember that, not only did Norv fail to bring Gannon to Washington, he actually got rid of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted December 11, 2001 Share Posted December 11, 2001 If I remember correctly, Gannon was here in 93 not 94 when Norv took over. Why? Well, for one, we had a brand new coach who had a high draft pick and he chose Shuler. Again, why I am not sure since he is a very loyal pocket passing coach and he drafted a runner. Anyway, secondly, he drafted 2 QB's and from the previous team that Pettibon had, they got rid of them all. In fact, Gannon wasn't even in football in 94. ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 11, 2001 Author Share Posted December 11, 2001 I don't think Norv should be faulted for not going with any particular qb whether it was a free agent Rich Gannon or whomever. My point is at the end of the day, if you make a mistake with a high #1 pick, it may be difficult but you have to make up for it with a rare find from another source. The Rams drafted Tony Banks with a #2 pick in 1996 and then released him. They signed Trent Green as a free agent and he got hurt. But the Rams ended up with Kurt Warner so all was right in mudville. The good teams find ways of overcoming personnel losses with their own sleeper finds. The Redskins were never able to find those players. We paid through the nose for every player it seemed that made a contribution from Ken Harvey to Marvcus Patton to Brad Johnson to Dana Stubblefield and Dan Wilkinson. We also paid through the nose for players like Stanley Richard and Jon Gesek who never really made a contribution here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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