Thiebear Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Pick the most likely.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I'm confused on this one, did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 16, 2004 Author Share Posted May 16, 2004 Sept. 13, 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles - Israel and PLO agree to mutual recognition, Yasser Arafat and PLO will be allowed to return to Gaza. PLO and Palestinian leadership renounce violence and use of terrorism, and agree to revise the PLO charter to remove chapters referring to destruction of Israel. Over the next, years, Israel withdraws from a small area (Area A) that is given to Palestinian sovereignty, a larger area (Area is given to Palestinian civil control only, while a third area of the West Bank and Gaza strip remains under total Israeli control. Israel did not dismantle any settlements, and the number of settlers and new settlements increased considerably. Palestinian groups did not remove their charter goals of destroying Israel; the PNA continued to finance, organize and encourage terror activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 This is a virtually impossible question to answer with any certain-ness. One thing is for sure, Israel won't be giving up anything if they don't have to (forced by the US). Thats what being a state the size of New Jersey and having the 4th largest military in the world will do for you. Not to mention having the worlds only super power giving you around 3 billion in direct aid every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatFischer37 Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 how come everyone under the age of 20 answers with something stupid like that Israel and Great Britain are the 2 strongest allies that the US has. They are the victim of constant doubletalk..."give up Gaza and the West Bank and there will be peace" HOGWASH. The entire Palestinian ideal is founded on a lie...they simply do not want any Israel or Israelis anywhere in the area....so much for living together in peace Dont be so naive as to believe anything the PLO has to say...they and their related parties (Hammas) are terrorists. Israel still exists due to the determination of its people to fight everyday of its 55 year existance as a state Yes, the US funds the Israeli army, NO the Israeli army would still be the strongest army without the US funding Dont think the US hasnt learned some of its most valuable training from these same Israelis I say, forget the peace movement, take back the '67 borders and make Jordan, Syria and Egypt take some of their brothers back to true Arab soil...it may happen sooner than you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 16, 2004 Author Share Posted May 16, 2004 91 billion since 1949.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by PatFischer37 Yes, the US funds the Israel army, NO the Israeli army would still be the strongest army without the US funding This could be the funniest thing I've read all morning! Thanks Pat! :laugh: While you made some valid points in your post (mainly that the PLO is a terrorist org) but by saying something that ignorant it takes away from the seriousness of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 The Palestinians have been given many opportunities to have their "Palestine". Bottom line is, they aren't a people (their leadership) who are willing to compromise. That's funny, fundamentalist Islamists and compromise NEVER belong in the same sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by phishhead Thats what being a state the size of New Jersey and having the 4th largest military in the world.... Where did you get that? I've got different figures... Country - Personnel (000): China - 2,930 USA - 1,547 Russia - 1,520 India - 1,145 N. Korea - 1,128 S. Korea - 633 Pakistan - 587 and the list goes on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyboy70 Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 The one thing we can be sure of is this: As long as there is an Israel, Palestinians and the Arab world will try to destroy it. There can be no peace in the Middle East until radical (and even some moderate) Muslims change their mindset, which I don't see happening in our lifetime. The fact that Jews are not allowed to live anywhere else in the Middle East pretty much says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by 979guy Where did you get that? I've got different figures... Country - Personnel (000): China - 2,930 USA - 1,547 Russia - 1,520 India - 1,145 N. Korea - 1,128 S. Korea - 633 Pakistan - 587 and the list goes on.... I'd say you're list may be wrong. Here you go: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Israel+has+the+4th+Largest+Military Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by phishhead I'd say you're list may be wrong. Here you go: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Israel+has+the+4th+Largest+Military Because E.A. Richards says so? Oh. Right. :doh: Check your facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by 979guy Because E.A. Richards says so? Oh. Right. :doh: Check your facts. yep, he is the only one. I first read it in a Chomsky book a few years ago, but there are many sites you can find references to it. Its a shame your overwhelming support for Israel keeps you from looking and maybe adopting a different point of view. But back to the matter at hand, some say its the 3rd most powerful military (Israel, that is). But that might be giving them too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Palestinian groups did not remove their charter goals of destroying Israel; the PNA continued to finance, organize and encourage terror activities. Actually the "Palestinian Authority" did hold several resolutions including one before their entire assemble which did remove the lines in the charter which called for the destruction of Israel. We Americans know this because Bill Clinton addressed the Palistinians assemble just prior to the vote and the vote and spreech was covered live by several American networks... Either way Israel isn't turning over power in Gaza to the PA. The PA has been destroyed and can not control or secure anything anylonger.... One thing is for sure, Israel won't be giving up anything if they don't have to (forced by the US). The Gaza Strip is a slum. Nobody wants it. Israel has tried to give it to Egypt on several occassions. Egypt's turned them down. America isn't behind Israel's pull out so much as Israel just deciding their best strategy on dealing with Gaza. phishhead Thats what being a state the size of New Jersey and having the 4th largest military in the world will do for you. Not to mention having the worlds only super power giving you around 300 billion in direct aid every year. Interestingly enough New Jersey has a population of about 8.5 million folks... Israel has a population of 5 million of which only 4 million are Jews and 1 million or 20% are Arabs.. Also, while Israel has a very good army they ain't #4 in size. They're many military victories have been impressive and even miraculous. What makes them even more impressive is that they have often been outnumbered. Israel's army isn't even in the top 20 in size or the top ten in spending, much less the top 4..... Hell America only has the 3rd largest Army, Iraq was #4 before the first gulf war. Largest Military in the world by number of folks in Uniform.. [1] China [2] Russia [3] America [4] N. Korea Now you have to take this with a grain of salt because in America the US military pretty much only is used to fight wars and train for fighting wars. In china they do everything from cross walk guards to harvesting crops to boarder guards. A better guage of military power is probable military spending.. How much does a nation spend on it's military? That's the statistic which shows America as the only and last remaining super power... [1] United States $399.1 Billion [2] Russia* $65.0 [3] China* $47.0 [4] Japan $42.6 [5] United Kingdom $38.4 [6] France $29.5 [7] Germany $24.9 [8] Saudi Arabia $21.3 [8] Italy $19.4 [9] India $15.6 [10] South Korea $14.1 [11] Brazil* $10.5 [12] Israel $9.4[13] Spain $8.4 [14] Australia $7.6 [15] Canada $7.6 [16] Taiwan $7.0 [17] Netherlands $6.6 [18] Turkey $5.8 [19] Singapore $4.8 [20] Sweden $4.5 [21] Iran $4.1 [22] Kuwait $3.9 [23] Norway $3.8 [24] Greece $3.5 [25] Poland $3.5 [26] Argentina* $3.3 [27] United Arab Emirates* $3.1 [28] Egypt $3.0 [29] Belgium $2.7 [30] Pakistan* $2.6 [31] Denmark $2.4 [32] Vietnam $2.4 [33] Colombia $1.7 [34] Czech Republic $1.6 [35] Iraq* $1.4 [36] North Korea $1.4 [37] Philippines $1.4 [38] Portugal $1.3 [39] Libya* $1.2 [40] Hungary $1.1 [41] Syria $1.0 [42] Cuba* $0.8 [43] Sudan* $0.6 [44] Yugoslavia $0.7 [45] Luxembourg $0.2 That's right America outspends the next 22 largest military countries combined and most of those countries are allies. phishhead Not to mention having the worlds only super power giving you around 300 billion in direct aid every year. Also false. The United States has only given Israel around 100 billion dollars in Israel's entire history. That aid has pretty much remained constand for the last 30 years (since camp david) at between 2.2 billion dollars and 4.4 billion dollars per year. Now a billion dollars in the 1960's is worth a lot more money than a Billion dollars today, but even so America doesn't give Israel anywhere near 300 billion a year.. They would have taken care of both Iran and Iraq years ago if we gave them that much money...... Actual American Government Aid to Israel.. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by phishhead yep, he is the only one. I first read it in a Chomsky book a few years ago, but there are many sites you can find references to it. Its a shame your overwhelming support for Israel keeps you from looking and maybe adopting a different point of view. But back to the matter at hand, some say its the 3rd most powerful military (Israel, that is). But that might be giving them too much credit. So now its the 3rd... Please, can you post some of those sources? Book of lists? Janes? CIA? Anyone serious? I don't really care if Israel has the 4th largest military on the planet. I do care about people posting stuff which has absolutely nothing to do with facts. FACTS. Show me a serious source, I'll say I'm sorry and that you were correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Very informative post thew, thanks. And yes, I soon realized my 300 billion statement was way exaggerated (maybe I multiplied 3 times 100 for some reason? who knows). I found different numbers, but 3 billion yearly was what I found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 So now its the 3rd... Please, can you post some of those sources? Book of lists? Janes? CIA? Anyone serious? Well they're not in the top 20 in size and not in the top 10 in military spending. But clearly Israel kicks ass. Their military is first rate and many countries like China and Russia who rank much better in the quantifiable areas can not make that claim. I'll just say that saying Israel is #3 or #4 is a defendable subjective statement. They can't project power half way around the world like we can but nobody else in the world can. In their short but troubled history, they've been at war with many countries many times simultaniously who all outnumber them. They've never lost and they regularly take care of business in days rather than weeks or months. They rock. A statement of "military power" is a totally subjective one which is not always addressed on paper..... Saudi#9 outspends Israel#12 but nobody doubts that Israel could take care of them in a afternoon's workout. Anyway.. Just an opinion, here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconBlue Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I think that there is a VERY good reason that Isreal has such a good military and has never lost. That is very simply put, Isreal can only ever lose once. If that ever happens there won't be an Isreal anymore.I don't think that these are a people fighting for dominance but rather for their own continued existence. For what ever thats worth.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I think that there is a VERY good reason that Isreal has such a good military and has never lost. That is very simply put, Isreal can only ever lose once. If that ever happens there won't be an Isreal anymore.I don't think that these are a people fighting for dominance but rather for their own continued existence. For what ever thats worth.. I agree with what you say except for the dominance thing. They are dominant. More dominant than 4-5 million folks sourounded by 200 million could ever be thought to be if we discount history. ( 200 million is the populations of the combined countries who at one time or another have been at war with Israel in her history ). Israel's problem has never been in defeating her enemies. Her problems have always been what to do after the war was over. Israel's never been large enough to occupy one of her fallen foes not while keeping security on her other boarders. Militarily she outclasses all of her neighbors but that doesn't give her a military option to defuse her troubles.... Least not historically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by 979guy So now its the 3rd... Please, can you post some of those sources? Book of lists? Janes? CIA? Anyone serious? I don't really care if Israel has the 4th largest military on the planet. I do care about people posting stuff which has absolutely nothing to do with facts. FACTS. Show me a serious source, I'll say I'm sorry and that you were correct. Dude, he's quoting Chomsky, the Khmer Rouge apologist, Killing Fields revisionist--don't even engage phishead. He is pretty much like the cats you see holding up "We support our troops when they shoot their officers" signs. Or "Solidarity with the insurgents of Fallujah." :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconBlue Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Not to mince words but I never said that the Isrealies weren't dominant but that the idea of dominance is not what drives them.Hardly, Rather that it is purely out of self-preservation that thier need for military superiority springs.They are far from being as pure as the driven snow but they are hardly in a position to attempt to be. Not only can Isreal not afford to lose they can't even afford to show anything that resembles weakness. I really believe that if they did even for a moment that the entire arab world would dog-pile them in a New York minute. It has to be a hard position to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I never said that the Isrealies weren't dominant I didn't mean to miss quote you before. I get your point... I really believe that if they did even for a moment that the entire arab world would dog-pile them in a New York minute. It has to be a hard position to be in. Well the entire Arab world along with Iran have attacked Israel in the past and Israel still won pretty decisively. And that was when Israel was a newly declaired Nation and wasn't nearly as dominant militarily. Currently Israel has a peace agreement with Egypt, her largest and most formatable neighbor and Jordan who while small has a pretty fair military of her own with respect to the other Arab countries. This gives Israel the ability to pretty much concentrate on the Palistinians and Syrias. I don't think the Arab world collectively or individually believes Israel is weak. Israel has schooled them pretty well to the countrary. As for Israel's inability to show weakness, I would say only through negociation can she obtain peace; and only through peace can she ensure her long term survival. Continued reliance on almost miraculous military victories I would suggest is not as reliable as a negotiated peace. Negotiated peace has not been an option for Israel for much of her troubled history. Currently it is, She needs to grab for it rather than relie on what she had to settle for in the past. Again, Israel has no military path to long term and sustained peace. She's strong enough to defeat her enemies but not strong enough to occupy them and ensure they won't fight her again and again as they have in Israel's history. Negotiation is all both sides have as neither side has a military solution. At one time none of the countries in the region would speak to Israel. Currently all of the countries have expressed a willingness for peace (Arab league endorsed the Saudi peace plan), it's just a matter of terms. Now don't get me wrong they're far off on the terms but unlike in the past there is something to discuss. That shoudl be our focus.... Finally Israel needs the military advantage she currently enjoys to give her the confidence to enter into any peace agreement with her enemies. As you say, she can only loose once... Anyway.. Just my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 From what I got from CIA world factbook, World Wide: US- 277 billion (3.2% of GDP) China-56 billion (4.3%) France-46.5 billion (2.6%) Japan-40 billion (1%) Germany-39 billion (1.4%) UK-31 billion (2.32%) Brazil-13 billion (2%) India- 11.5 billion (2.3%) Australia- 11.3 billion (3%) Regional: Saudi Arabia 18.3 billion (13%) [high number but Saudi Arabia's military still sucks] Iran-9.7 billion (3.1%) Israel-9 bilion (8.75%) Turkey- 8 billion (4.5%) Iraq-1.3 billion Syria-0.86 billion (6%) Jordan-0.76 billion (8.6%) Lebenon-0.541 billion (4.8%) pound for pound the Israeli military is unmatched, but it is still a very small country. I don't know if the Israeli number contains military aid given by the U.S. be it in sales of arms or just money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest "VT Alum" SkinsHokie Fan Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I always get a good laugh when I go to Pakistan because there is always talk of forming a Pan-Muslim military that would combine forces from Turkey to Pakistan to Malysia. According to one book I read this would be one of the more formidable fighting forces on Earth. However it is a joke when the Arab Leauge puts out weak condemnations of India testing nuclear devices, and puts no pressure for a solution in Kashmir, but cheers when the "Islamic Bomb" has been tested. Isreal needs to have the military it has now or else the Arabs would push the Jews to the sea. Even I know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by "VT Alum" SkinsHokie Fan I always get a good laugh when I go to Pakistan because there is always talk of forming a Pan-Muslim military that would combine forces from Turkey to Pakistan to Malysia. According to one book I read this would be one of the more formidable fighting forces on Earth. However it is a joke when the Arab Leauge puts out weak condemnations of India testing nuclear devices, and puts no pressure for a solution in Kashmir, but cheers when the "Islamic Bomb" has been tested. Isreal needs to have the military it has now or else the Arabs would push the Jews to the sea. Even I know that Hmm. That idea is laughable, mainly because it would require that Muslim in-fighting(shia/Sunni, Sunni modernists/traditionalists, etc etc etc) would be stamped out. And frankly, Arabs have some cultural issues which renders their armed forces far less effective than their 'co-religionists' in Turkey and even Indonesia. They simply don't field competent militaries. But more than anything, such an alliance I believe would herald the beginning of a great war. From the US to Israel to India and Russia and China, even the formation of such a force would instantly be cause for MASSIVE pre-emptive strikes. Unless significant changes occur within most of these nations, in which case it would meet with less hostility(though a wary eye would be trained on it at all times) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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