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The World is on Fire: Protests Happening All Over the Globe Thread

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Keep in mind that Lebanon has gone months or even years without a prime minister or president in recent years and Hariri has resigned before so this may not be as big a deal as it seems at first glance.  

Edited by visionary

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Evo was a very successful leader but it’s hard to feel sorry for him here. People rejected his bid to run again years ago and he rigged the constitution to stay in power. The legitimacy of this election was always going to be up for debate. He really should not have been on the ballot to begin with.

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10 hours ago, No Excuses said:

Evo was a very successful leader but it’s hard to feel sorry for him here. People rejected his bid to run again years ago and he rigged the constitution to stay in power. The legitimacy of this election was always going to be up for debate. He really should not have been on the ballot to begin with.

It didn't matter what he did the right wing was always going to find an excuse to start a coup. Look at what happened in Brazil or in Chile in 1973 or Honduras or pretty much any Laitn and South American country in the last 50-100 years. 

 

The Supreme Court of Bolivia which is also popularly elected and has that authority under the Bolivarian consitution okayed his run and struck down the referendum.

He then won a clear majority of the vote (no one disputes this) and the opposition responded by burning ballot boxed and claiming fraud (without proof). The fact is this is a right wing coup that was going to happen sooner or later no matter what happened Bolivia has the largest lithium deposits in the world and that industry is nationalized there was precisely zero chance there wouldn't be a right wing "the country is for sale" coup.  Here is a good thread on why opposition claims of fraud are most likely bull**** (we will never know for sure because the opposition burned the ballot boxes because they know they lost) 

https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703918624108544 

 

Now was running again a wise move? Who knows, but it seems clear by the right wing coupers actions that no matter what happened he was and his party were going to get overthrown. This coup was triggered after he called for more elections, since the coup kicked off the Vice President and Senate Leader have been forced to resign so that the Deputy Senate Leader (the first oppoistion member in the line of succession) could take over. This is a classical right wing coup in Latin America.

 

Hopefully there will be free and fair elections but at this point it looks doubtful considering the right is having show trials and burning MAS members homes and the indigenous flags.

Edited by jpyaks3

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Let's just be clear, you are voicing support for Evo because you agree with his leftist politics, even though he has increasingly shown himself to be an authoritarian who will bend the electoral process to his will. For starters, the military is stepping in weeks after anti-government protests by the general public. This does not happen if Evo Morales doesn't show a clear pattern for disregarding democratic norms and institutions to maintain his grip on power.

 

Ignoring the public's referendum and using your partisan friends on the Supreme Court to invalidate public opinion on term limits is straight up authoritarian thuggery.

 

Even in this election, he declared himself the outright winner, without having to go to a runoff, despite the fact that all votes had not been counted and he had not secured the margin necessary to avoid the runoff. Ballot counting goes silent for 24 hours and then he magically has enough votes to avoid a runoff? Please, the OAS found irregularities and Evo himself proposed a new election. To say this last election was a clean victory for Evo is not accurate at all.

 

If these were the antics of a right wing government, you would be labeling it a coup as well. It's unfortunate what's happening in Bolivia, but this would not be the case if Morales doesn't take the stance over the past few years that democracy is inconvenient when it challenges his authority. This is his own disregard for democracy backfiring at him, especially since at least half of the country is strongly against him.

 

Don't be surprised when the opposition also decides to participate in undemocratic thuggery.

Edited by No Excuses

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35 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Let's just be clear, you are voicing support for Evo because you agree with his leftist politics, even though he has increasingly shown himself to be an authoritarian who will bend the electoral process to his will. For starters, the military is stepping in weeks after anti-government protests by the general public. This does not happen if Evo Morales doesn't show a clear pattern for disregarding democratic norms and institutions to maintain his grip on power.

 

Ignoring the public's referendum and using your partisan friends on the Supreme Court to invalidate public opinion on term limits is straight up authoritarian thuggery.

Evo Morales recieved more votes than the opposition party which responded by burning ballot boxes (since they knew they lost) and pushing a coup to overthrow a democratically elected leader. Whenever the military/police overthrow a democratically elected leader that is a bad thing. The Supreme Court was elected by the people so if they are partisan it is because the Bolivarian people voted them in. 

Quote

 


Even in this election, he declared himself the outright winner, without having to go to a runoff, despite the fact that all votes had not been counted and he had not secured the margin necessary to avoid the runoff. Ballot counting goes silent for 24 hours and then he magically has enough votes to avoid a runoff? Please, the OAS found irregularities and Evo himself proposed a new election. To say this last election was a clean victory for Evo is not accurate at all.
 

 

The quick vote was halted but that happens in every election in Bolivia (from what I can understand) the official vote was still going on when the opposition decided to burn the ballot boxes. The OAS is not exactly a non-partisan organization and has supported coups in the past so it isn't exactly shocking they were pushing voting irregularity (although I haven't seen them come out with actual proof of any wrongdoing). Additionally the increase in late votes makes sense considering the rural/urban divide and the fact that rural votes would come in later and would be Evo's main support.If the opposition really had electoral concerns with irregularity or thought that they had actally won why would they burn the ballot boxes and the proof? I think its much more likely that they realized they would lose and their only path to power was through violence and a coup and wanted to muddy the waters and provide plausible deniability.

Quote

 


If these were the antics of a right wing government, you would be labeling it a coup as well. It's unfortunate what's happening in Bolivia, but this would not be the case if Morales doesn't take the stance over the past few years that democracy is inconvenient when it challenges his authority. This is his own disregard for democracy backfiring at him, especially since at least half of the country is strongly against him.

 

Don't be surprised when the opposition also decides to participate in undemocratic thuggery.

 


Well he has continuously won elections (freely and fairly) and he clearly won this one was well (jno one is disuputing he recieved at least a plurality of votes) so I don't think people calling him undemocratic really have a leg to stand on when the opposition has burned the ballot boxes, prevented outside auditing, and when offered a new election attacked and burned MAS leadership and their homes and family,  enacted a coup, arrested enough of Morales party leadership to ensure that one of their own was put in power. 

Look was Morales the perfect leader? Absolutely not, but the people decrying his undemocratic actions (which its quesitonable how undemocratic they are) are cheerleading a coup by a group that lost the election and have shown zero regard for democracy. So those calls ring pretty damn hollow when Morales "undemocratic actions" at this point are: He followed the direction of the Supreme Court of Boliva regarding term limits and he won an election..

Edited by jpyaks3

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4 minutes ago, jpyaks3 said:

Look was Morales the perfect leader? Absolutely not, but the people decrying his undemocratic actions (which its quesitonable how undemocratic they are) are cheerleading a coup by a group that lost the election and have shown zero regard for democracy. So those calls ring pretty damn hollow when Morales "undemocratic actions" at this point are: He followed the direction of the Supreme Court of Boliva regarding term limits and he won an election..

 

There is literally nothing unquestionable about his undemocratic tendencies. Overturning a public referendum on term limits through a partisan court is as undemocratic as it gets. One branch of government, packed with your supporters, invalidating a majority referendum from the public is undemocratic bull**** by every standard.

 

And again, you want to deny the OAS's findings on vote manipulation and then say that Evo won the election "free and fairly". There is no discussion to be had when the the apple staring you in the face is called an orange. Anything that casts doubt on Evo's undemocratic nonsense is "questionable" but years and years of nonsense from him is "legitimate".

 

The fact that the country underwent weeks and weeks of anti-government protests is because of a history of Morales disregarding democratic norms. People are going to react violently if they feel that their votes don't matter and that someone is attempting to cheat and manipulate their way into staying in power.

 

And really, if Evo was a right wing fascist, you would be calling him a dictator who overtook via fraud and deceit. You like his political agenda and you are thus comfortable in white washing his authoritarianism, and what was years and years of rigging the electoral process. Wanna-be dictators, left or right wing, suck equally.

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32 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

There is literally nothing unquestionable about his undemocratic tendencies. Overturning a public referendum on term limits through a partisan court is as undemocratic as it gets. One branch of government, packed with your supporters, invalidating a majority referendum from the public is undemocratic bull**** by every standard.

 

And again, you want to deny the OAS's findings on vote manipulation and then say that Evo won the election "free and fairly". There is no discussion to be had when the the apple staring you in the face is called an orange. Anything that casts doubt on Evo's undemocratic nonsense is "questionable" but years and years of nonsense from him is "legitimate".

 

The fact that the country underwent weeks and weeks of anti-government protests is because of a history of Morales disregarding democratic norms. People are going to react violently if they feel that their votes don't matter and that someone is attempting to cheat and manipulate their way into staying in power.

 

And really, if Evo was a right wing fascist, you would be calling him a dictator who overtook via fraud and deceit. You like his political agenda and you are thus comfortable in white washing his authoritarianism, and what was years and years of rigging the electoral process. Wanna-be dictators, left or right wing, suck equally.

Once again the Supreme Court or Supreme Tribunal is popularly elected. He didn't appoint them like what happens in the United States. Additionally, a referendum isn't a binding be all-end all thing and the Supreme Court found that the term limits were not compatable with the Bolivarian consitution. 

The court found that:

“All people that were limited by the law and the constitution are hereby able to run for office, because it is up to the Bolivian people to decide,” Macario Lahor Cortez, head of the Plurinational Constitutional Court, wrote in the ruling." 

All the opposition had to do was win an election which they couldn't do (and no one is disputing that they recieved far less votes).


The OAS has not provided any proof for their claims of voter manipulation. 

Right now Evo Morales is by far the better actor in this situation since his oppositon has enacted a literal coup after they lost an election. You can have isssues with Morales and his politics but it is impossible to support the coup if you actually believe in democracy or the peoples will. 

If the Chilean military had overthrown Pinera after the much more widespread and persistant protests he has facec (or Moreno in Ecuador) I would still call it a coup and bad for democacry. Ideology doesn't matter when one side is burning ballot boxes, attacking members of the popularly elected party, and initiates a coup with show trials agains tthe opposition, that side is the ****ty side and we shouldn't cheerlead that.

EDIT: This is the opposition, they clearly are worried about democratic processes.

 

Edited by jpyaks3

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1 hour ago, jpyaks3 said:

Once again the Supreme Court or Supreme Tribunal is popularly elected. He didn't appoint them like what happens in the United States. Additionally, a referendum isn't a binding be all-end all thing and the Supreme Court found that the term limits were not compatable with the Bolivarian consitution. 


No one is disputing that they are popularly elected. Tossing out term limits, when the public had declared their support for it, despite the fact that term limits are not unconstitutional, was undemocratic and clearly done to enable Morales to stay in power. The Bolivian constitution even explicitly authorizes term limits for the justices, so term limits are not “incompatible” with their constitution as you say, is nonsense.
 

The OAS’s preliminary audit report is open to read for everyone and found severe irregularities that led to Morales calling new elections: https://www.oas.org/documents/spa/press/Informe-Auditoria-Bolivia-2019.pdf


No one is going to believe that fair elections can be held again by someone caught rigging them the first time. 

 

If you are caught rigging an election, after declaring a public referendum on your ability to run again invalid, people are going to be angry and they aren’t  going to trust that you and members of your party are driven by national interests, rather than self-preservation. It’s unfortunate what is happening now,  but this is typical anywhere in the world when people have had enough of authoritarianism. There is no peaceful overthrow of dictators or wanna-be dictators and violence and targeting of opposition is coming from Morales supporters as well. The mayor who was unfortunately targeted in your video was triggered by an opposition protestors being killed by having his skull fractured via an explosive.
 

If we’re spinning partisan narratives, people rigging elections and cracking the skulls of those in opposition isn’t a particularly good look.

Edited by No Excuses

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