Dance04 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I still think you have it backwards about our offense. you claim a ball control offense thats gets alot of yards is better than an offense that gets the ball into the endzone. ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 That causes doubts, but I can't grade them on rumors. These ones had legs. It was reported by MANY reputable sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor4Life Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Nice post, Oldfan. Many issues discussed in this thread all come down to basically one thing: running an NFL team is a HELL of a lot different in the salary cap age. I kind of have a theory. Before the salary cap age, there were certain teams that were already operating on a budget, and were therefore used to hunting for bargains by building through draft, etc. Those teams are now dominating the NFL. New England, Indianapolis, and Tennessee (formerly Houston) are all examples of this. However, the franchises who had laid down mega-bucks to build virtual all-star teams find themselves dazed and confused in the current NFL system. Washington, Dallas, and San Francisco are good examples of this. This is a copycat league, and our front office should take a VERY good look at what the successful teams are doing and follow suit. Either that, or they should lobby to END the salary cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Thanks Oldfan for the time you spent on this. I would also like to thank Stormy and Aston for their thoughtful counterpoints and questions. This is how eXtremSkins should be. We disagree without being disagreeable. I applaud all of you for this thread. I was cautiously optimistic before last year's draft and was deeply disappointed that our GM seemed to ignore the obvious needs of the OL again when there was OL talent still available when our picks were made (Rachal, Pollack). Still, I remain optimistic hoping that last year's draft is like the 1980 draft (Monk) followed by our 1981 draft (May and Grimm). And if, as I expect, that our GM does the overwhelmingly shortsighted thing of ignoring the OL again, I will just shake my head and wonder how anyone could be so stupid. Because in the final analysis, no matter what offense you run and no matter what scheme you employ, and no matter if you're a pass happy team or a stuff the ball down their throats team, you have to have an OLine to play the game. I will wait to see what Vinny does this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corrupt3d Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 These ones had legs. It was reported by MANY reputable sources. The Ocho-Retardo one did yeah, but we weren't trading a first and a second for Briggs, we were gonna give up our 2007 first for briggs and chicago's first. They wanted McIntosh and we said no. Futher, we were interested in signing him in FA last year, but (obviously) didnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The Ocho-Retardo one did yeah, but we weren't trading a first and a second for Briggs, we were gonna give up our 2007 first for briggs and chicago's first.They wanted McIntosh and we said no. Futher, we were interested in signing him in FA last year, but (obviously) didnt. I stand corrected. However, had the Ocho trade gone through, we may be discussing the Skins top pick at slot 77 in the draft instead of at 13. And this hardly indicates that the team is truly concerned with building through the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I agree with others...this is how a team SHOULD be done. However, I still haven't seen any TRUE evidence that it's being done here. Couldn't agree more. :applause: Or disagree more with most of Of's piece. Now, I am neither gona' jump in with a debate to put the counter argument to the OP, as I happen to like reading his thoughts in the main; nor am I suggesting this is what he's done. (Oldfan's his OWN man, and stands by and believes everything he types.). This is a general statement: This fanbase is that desperate for ANY hope to cling to, that you can put any spin on anything, be it stats, front office moves, whatever; and turn it in to a positive piece and folk will cling to it and run with it. They just want to feel good about a situation that's been far from for almost two decades now. Hell knows the ACTUAL organisation gives us little of that. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metskins Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Be prepared for me to bump this thread in 11 months in all it's mocking glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I have lost all faith in this franchise 10 years of excuses and mediocrity have me a pessimist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I have lost all faith in this franchise 10 years of excuses and mediocrity have me a pessimist Before someone calls you a "hater" Chief s, as is this boards want; were not "pessimists", were "realistic optimists." We want the best for our team, but the last two decades or so have taught us better as to what they'll give us back in return. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 there is NO evidence that supports optimism bro. Zorn cant get it done as the man and him being a former qb doesn't mean anything either. Now if by chance you mean the Evidence supports optimism in regards to Zorn and Vinny being gone next year then i would agree with you. Since 1992 ive always said and felt the skins would improve and get back to there winning ways of the past. I sit here typing in 2009 and cant find those feelings anymore and its sad. Once one of the proudest teams in sports being reduced to a bottom dweller for the past 16 seasons. I still love the redskins and am not jumping ship by any means but its just easier to not get your hopes up and watch the train wreck all over again next season we could be 2-14 or 4-12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I have 12 years of evidence to point the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 to the op you have more optimism than me bud thats for sure. My optimism meter is below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I found it hard to believe that out defense is overrated considering 4th in ypg, 6th in points allowed, at 18.5 per game. Here's my thread on the topic if you missed it.http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=277495 I do agree with most everything else you said, and feel that the offense (even with jason campbell in, who i dont think is the answer but that is for another thread....Brennan) will put up more points and be more consistent next year. I think so. I'm really anxious to see more production from the young receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 These ones had legs. It was reported by MANY reputable sources. Reputable sources reported weapons of mass destruction in Iraq:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Now, I am neither gona' jump in with a debate to put the counter argument to the OP, as I happen to like reading his thoughts in the main; nor am I suggesting this is what he's done. (Oldfan's his OWN man, and stands by and believes everything he types.). Just for background... in December, 2005 when optimism was high after our stretch run to the playoffs, I started a pessimistic thread predicting mediocrity ahead because of the dumb way we were going about building the roster. After 2006 (5-11), Dan, Vinny and Gibbs changed their ways. The plan makes more sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I still think you have it backwards about our offense. you claim a ball control offense thats gets alot of yards is better than an offense that gets the ball into the endzone. ridiculous. Never said that. If I had, 30 posters would have jumped all over me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I kind of have a theory. Before the salary cap age, there were certain teams that were already operating on a budget, and were therefore used to hunting for bargains by building through draft, etc. Those teams are now dominating the NFL. New England, Indianapolis, and Tennessee (formerly Houston) are all examples of this. Your theory makes sense. The big market teams should be putting their money into better scouting and a better support system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well, it always tickles me when someone thinks scheme is the key to winning. At the beginning of Gibbs I, the team went 0-5. Offensive production was way up...the team was racking up lots of yards, but they were losing. He then adapted the scheme he used to the players he had and finished 8-8. What troubles me about 'Z' is that we lost at the end of the season, when one game would have made an incredible difference. At the end, there were stories about the players losing faith, a coach with a large ego and generally a more fractured team than any time in the previous four years. Coaches who ridicule their players in the press rarely gain their confidence. Football is about 'team', personnel and leadership...scheme is somewhere down the list. I'm not impressed with this guy. I hope he proves me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I was cautiously optimistic before last year's draft and was deeply disappointed that our GM seemed to ignore the obvious needs of the OL again when there was OL talent still available when our picks were made (Rachal, Pollack). As a proponent of drafting the BPA as a general rule, I can't be critical when needs aren't filled. I don't know how they have the players ranked. I'll judge the front office over the long haul. In the past, we have traded away too many 2,3 and 4 picks to be successful in the draft. Gibbs felt the O line he inherited was the strongest unit on the team. He seemed to favor trading up to fill needs elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well, it always tickles me when someone thinks scheme is the key to winning.At the beginning of Gibbs I, the team went 0-5. Offensive production was way up...the team was racking up lots of yards, but they were losing. He then adapted the scheme he used to the players he had and finished 8-8. Your first sentence makes it sound like you don't think scheme is the key to winning; then you give an example where a scheme change caused a turnaround. What troubles me about 'Z' is that we lost at the end of the season, when one game would have made an incredible difference. Our schedule was tougher in the second half and we had all three OTs playing hurt. Our roster isn't deep enough to withstand injuries at one position. At the end, there were stories about the players losing faith, a coach with a large ego and generally a more fractured team than any time in the previous four years. Nothing new. When things are going badly there will be players pointing fingers. Portis was the first. That was predictable. Coaches who ridicule their players in the press rarely gain their confidence. When he gave us his honest assessments of performances, zorn's remarks weren't interpreted as "ridicule" when we were 6-2. Football is about 'team', personnel and leadership...scheme is somewhere down the list. We disagree on that. Belichick has had a good plan and the talent to execute it. That's why he has won lots football games. The man couldn't lead a Boy Scout troop. The coach who most impressed me as a leader in 2008 was Rod Marinelli (0-16) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Be prepared for me to bump this thread in 11 months in all it's mocking glory. And you'll disappear into the woodwork if I'm right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 there is NO evidence that supports optimism bro. Zorn cant get it done as the man and him being a former qb doesn't mean anything either. Well, we disagree. That's okay, but since you don't give any reasons for your pessimism, I have nothing to debate except that Zorn being a former QB was only one factor I mentioned in my analysis. I think it's evidence that he knows something about coaching QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttr77 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Reputable sources reported weapons of mass destruction in Iraq:D Well, a lot more people stood to benefit from the war in Iraq. I'm not sure how the same could be said for spreading an NFL trade rumor... Numerous league sources, including some with direct knowledge of conversations between Snyder, Cerrato and recent head coaching candidates, have affirmed that the Redskins have interest in trading for Cincinnati wide receiver Chad Johnson, with two league sources saying Johnson is eager to land a hefty new contract from Washington. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/11/ST2008021102877.html There is even evidence that they had contract discussions: Apparently Oil Slick (Johnson's agent) and the Redskins came to an agreement either before, or at the exact moment, that the trade offer was made -- which we're not exactly sure when. The Redskins offered Johnson $21 million in guarantee money while offering the Bengals their 21st overall pick in 2008 and a conditional third-round pick in 2009. http://www.cincyjungle.com/2008/4/23/459528/there-are-options-for-chad And these are from the first page of a search of google that returned thousands of results. Come on man...this one has been all but CONFIRMED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Your first sentence makes it sound like you don't think scheme is the key to winning; then you give an example where a scheme change caused a turnaround. Since you missed the point, let me spell it out for you. Gibbs changed his scheme to adapt to the players. We now have a coach who is wed to a single scheme...and trying to fit square players into the round scheme hole. I like flexibility based on personnel. I think we're in for a long Norvis-like run if this guy hangs around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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