Redskins Finished Except for Running Back?

[bulldog]

that statement from Marty a few days ago is very hard to believe.

If you look at our depth at DE you see Coleman and Smith, both over 30, followed by Derrick Ham, 26, and Terry Bryant.

Ham has been around for two years but has never played a down on the regular defense. He is only 257.

Bryant is an undrafted rookie with good size at 6'4 and 280 but questionable technique and skills as per his draft report.

Marty has to be bluffing here or at least waiting until we see some cuts in NFL camps later in the summer where the Skins can pick up an NFL caliber backup veteran for the minimum.

Comparisons of Ham to Armstrong who has been a pro bowler several times and finished with 13 sacks last year is a big stretch. Armstrong was also close to 280 when he was a full-time starter earlier in his career. Now at 270 he is a situational pass rusher.

Jason Taylor is just a fine athlete with great speed and strength for his size. Likewise he has proven himself over time.

Ham's experience in NFL Europe to me is like Shar Pourdanesh's years in the CFL.

They account for little more than post-college practice. The level of competition is just not there.

For quarterbacks and kickers NFL Europe is a good vehicle for these players to show their skills as it is difficult to get on the field as an unproven player in the pros here.

I don't think the same can be said for the line positions as the level of play there is just not strong enough.

[Terry]

There are too many parallels with the Skins teams of '97 and '98 for me to feel real comfortable about our D line.

In '97 we fielded a D line with NOBODY of any consequence playing D tackle and got our arses handed to us. The only interest for Skins fans then was counting the cleat marks on the chests of guys like Zordich and Sims.

Same in 98 on our O line, when we tried to milk Shar and Patton for one season too many. That line was horrible that year, 3 runners couldn't break 1000 yds between them, and we gave up 60 sacks.

Both seasons we tried to go on the cheap. True, Glbert hosed us in '97, but there was still sweet bugger all next to him to begin with and without him there was nothing.

You must pay careful attention to your lines, and you must have quality depth there because those guys get dinged up the most. Gambling that somehow Coleman and Bruce won't need spelling at some point and that Ham will hold up as a replacement if one goes down seems a stretch to me. And hoping that Lang can go 16 as an every down DT, subbing with the unknown Cowsette to stay fresh, seems even more so. Combined, it seems to be a recipe for disaster.

[JackC]

I don't worry too much about DE. Lavar could always lineup there on passing downs and Kendard Lang is still on the team.

[Monkey]

Terry,

As far as the d-line, the parallels I see go back to the '91 and '82 seasons. Actually, if Terry Allen was not hurt, he would have had over 1000 yards (around 1120, he average about 70 yards per game). Add that to the fact he must have lost around 200 yards due to the offense not being able to line up properly (we got all sorts of calls for illegal formations) and some more because we constantly got ourselves into passing situations because of that.

[redman]

I agree with Jack. This means that Lavar is going to be in there pass rushing as a DE on many passing downs.

I'm more worried about DT where we have some personnel but a lot of question marks.

------------------

"Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

[Terry]

JackC and Redman,

What if Marco or Bruce actually go down for a few games or longer?

I wasn't talking about having Lavar spell them at DE, I was talking about having a guy ready to step in and play full time. I can't believe that a 257 lb DE can do that, and if we shift Lang over, then we have Cowsette playing DT full time.

Maybe that's not a problem. Maybe Marty has seen something he likes in our backups and is prepared to got with what he's got. Or maybe his hands are tied and he knows he couldn't plug every hole this year.

I dunno. But until I see these guys play then I'll be more than a little concerned.

[Zen-like Todd]

I'd much rather pick up a big run-stuffing DT than a DE, if it comes down to an either or situation. The thought process being that we are far more screwed if Wilkinson goes down than if we lose a DE. If we had another big man, we would be able to comfortably move Lang outside in case Smith or Coleman get hurt. I am far more concerned about the ability of Cowsette and Mounds to backup the starters on the inside than that of Ham backing up Smith/Coleman, and possibly filling with Lang/Arrington situationally.

Besides, we know that Marty has a solid poker face. I'm sure we'll make another move on the DL in the next couple of weeks. I think the Deion maneuvering is what's holding us back at the moment.

[NavyDave]

Marty will surprise us by having hidden from all of us a solid DT in rookie Mario Monds. Heck if he can occupy one-two linemen and not lose ground he's a gem. Seriously he has to be waiting on the preseason cuts for DTs

K Lang would replace coleman if he's injured and just put the fat kid in the middle and tell him to just attack one gap.

After this season we need to look at replacing both DEs, which will turn us into one of the youngest if not youngest teams in the NFL pending darrell green's retirement

------------------

Yes I'm paid to think and I need a raise

[bulldog]

I still have to believe if Deion is cut by camp time or thereafter, the first decent veteran DE that is available Marty will be after like a bee to honey.

A good defense starts with a solid line and corners that can cover. We spent a high pick to get Smoot, signed Greer as a free agent and have one of the best already in Champ Bailey. We also have Darrell Green to see action.

On the line there is less blue chip depth. If Monds can play DT on the run downs as a rookie that may change the dynamic as Lang could be moved outside in case of injury.

But that is a big IF. #6 draft picks are not a lock to start or be major contributors their first years.

I would find it hard to believe that Marty would not trust Mookie Moore to start at guard without competition from Coleman and Campbell and yet would trust Monds/Cowsette right out of the box, when they are less heralded players.

[88Comrade2000]

Just what in hell are you expecting Terry? A superbowl this year? Remember. We are cap strung this year and Marty has to erase 7 years of Norv. It all can't be done in one year.

Marty is doing as much as he can with the cards he was dealt with. What doesn't work this year, Marty will change next year. I figure it will be 2002 or 2003 before the complete team Marty wants has taken shape. I view next offseason as very critical to whether or not Marty is able to have success here. We should have some cap space, maybe not alot but some. We got the expansion draft to hopefully pan off someone to CC. We got the release/retirements of more players. WE could have anywhere from 9-11 picks next year. WE got our 7 plus whatever comp picks we get.

If good things happens this year it's a bonus.

[bulldog]

I don't think adding a $500k run stopping end to backup Bruce or Marco is asking too much. Indeed by releasing Deion we could actually go in and get some very decent help on the DL at the end of the summer for modest prices.

[redman]

Terry-

I agree with you that it's a concern as far as our first down package goes, but we CAN get by with a 257 lb DE - the Dolphins do it in their standard 4-3 alignment with Jason Taylor. Jevon Kearse is no wide body either in Tennessee's 4-3. Marty may think that our backups are adequate, if not flashy, for the task.

As others have been saying, Marty gives away nothing publicly to betray his thoughts about the team's weaknesses in order to preserve his bargaining position in personnel acquisition matters. My only point is that we at least have proven talent starting at DE, whereas we only have one proven DT starter. We need to field a starting team, especially at a position as critical as DT, before we worry about backups.

Besides, until I can see how the Deion situation plays out, which should be by the end of July at the latest, and see who we acquire during training camp and by the beginning of the season, I won't pass any judgement.

------------------

"Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

[bulldog]

what you are missing is that Jason Taylor and Jevon Kearse are both pro bowl caliber players that are rarities in today's game.

Before them were guys like Charles Haley that could play end at 245.

But how many of those guys are to be found sitting around?

Most players Taylor's size get blown off the line and lack the quickness and stamina to hold their position with leverage against guys 40 pounds heavier.

Ham at 26 has not gotten on a pro football field in three years of trying.

He obviously doesn't have the kind of talent Taylor or top 15 pick Kearse has, so let's stop that fantasy right now.

What we are looking at is a player with SOME speed to the quarterback, which is due mainly to his undersized frame.

I haven't seen any reports from camp or from the coaches that Ham is strong enough to consistently take on the run at this level.

All I have read is the hopes and wishes of fans that see he is currently listed as our #3 defensive end.

[GURU]

Bulldog,

I understand your concerns. I'm with you for the most part. But I think we have to face the fact that there are going to be questions on this team going into this season.

I believe the real key to this year's D-line is the play of Dan Wilkenson. Will the light go on? If he plays somewhat near what he is capable of, it almost doesn't matter who you put next to him. If Big Daddy pulls his load and teams have to double him, a quick guy like Lang or Cowsette can shoot gaps and make plays, or a big fatty like Monds or DeLoach can clog running lanes and collapse passing pockets.

I'm more concerned about end than tackle, depth-wise. But I think we need to see what Ham has or doesn't have before passing judgement. I haven't seen or heard any reports about Ham having the strength to take on the run, myself. But I haven't seen or heard any reports about him NOT being able to play the run, either. The only reference I've heard, at all, is Marty saying that Ham is a "high energy" player during an interview at the first minicamp. Basically anything any of us say is speculation, and unfortunately most of it is based on weight. And I hate, hate, HATE weight arguements.

I went to NFL.com and poked about. NFL listed weights are updated infrequently and their accuracies are suspect. One thing I noticed is that many of the starting defensive have gained weight over the years. I distinctly remember players like Willie McGinest, Hugh Douglas, Kenny Holmes and Tony Brackens (all quality ends) being drafted and playing the first part of their careers in the 250-260lbs range.

Now, all these guys are former 1st and 2nd round draft choices, so that comparison may not be entirely fair. But two quality defensive ends compare very favorably to Ham: Michael Sinclair and Michael McCrary. Sinclair was a 6th round draft pick, spent a season in the World League in 1992, and didn't become a starter in Seattle until 1995. Until injury and diabetes slowed him down the past 1 1/2 seasons, he was one of the most productive DEs in the NFL, leading the league in sacks in 1998. Sinclair's ex-Seattle teammate, starting Raven's DE McCrary was a rookie free agent who got little playing time his first 3 seasons before exploding onto the scene by leading the AFC in sacks with Bruce Smith in 1995. He had more sacks than any other player in the league from 1996-1999. McCrary is the classic example of a guy who isn't the most talented player in the world, but is relentless. Sinclair went to 3 straight Pro Bowls, and McCrary has been twice. Both went together as teammates in 1998, and both were listed at less than 260lbs at the time. McCrary is currently listed at 260lbs, and Sinclair at 275lbs. Funny how both were more productive at their lighter weights (which has a lot to do with age, admittedly). At 260lbs, McCrary was part of one of the most dominating run defenses of all time.

This is only Ham's 3rd season (he hasn't yet played 3 seasons), so it's likely that he will continue to gain weight and strength. I also remember a report from before Ham's first season that he was up to 270lbs while preparing for the NFL. The 257 was his college playing weight, which many players list as their official NFL weight their first several years. Whether or Ham retained that weight, I don't know. We just don't know much at all.

You can argue that if Ham was worth anything, he'd have won some playing time. But with Norv Turner at the helm, that's a hasty judgment. Like Sinclair and McCrary, Ham hasn't seen much (well, any) action. But neither of those guys earned starting spots until their 4th seasons.

Do we have a budding Michael McCrary, or another Kelvin Kinney? Or something in between (most likely)? I'm not ready to pass judgement on Derrick Ham (especially based on his listed weight) or Schottenheimer. To a coach like Marty, the true depth at DE will be fairly obvious after a couple weeks of training camp. A lot of veteran free agents are going to wait until after training camps start before signing with anybody because it's still a buyers' market. I'm not freaking out yet.

[ by GURU on June 19, 2001.]

[markrc99]

reading the opinions and comparisons between this year's DL and the slugs we had several seasons ago is a scary thought. i don't even want to think about that. it would suck if the LBs come along great and what opponents do is go to their multi-wr sets. if the skins don't get some help up front,that's what i'd do, empty out the box and run all over the skins old,thin and suspect DL. just one more reason why it'd be a big mistake going with deion&darrell @ #2&3. although it's questionable whether or not arrington's ready to factor into the pass rush rotation,we may not have much choice. hail the skins

[NavyDave]

Multiple wide receiver packages aren't that scary when you consider we had to face that wth Jax and the Rams last year and came out fine. And you could say our defensive backfield

is better than last year with Terrell moving to Safety a seasoned corner in Champ and scrubs like denton and drakeford being replaced by bigger speedier man covering players.

The problem will be when teams pull a dallas and jut run it up the gut against us until we prove we can stop the run and then if we commit to the run change up and playaction us to death.

But if the offense is as explosive as I believe it will be we should cancel out that potential weakness. But I don't see us having a weakness Marty isn t a stand pat type while an obvious weakness continues on our team.

------------------

Dave

[bulldog]

DT/DE are positions where you can integrate a late signing or trade onto your team with a minimum of transition problems. We are not talking a quarterback or wide receiver who has to learn a new offense.

If the Skins find a capable veteran released for cap reasons in July or August when the draft picks sign, then we should make a move to bolster depth there.

If Ham or one of the others steps up and shows he can contribute during the season fine, but right now that is nothing we can count on.

It would just be a nice bonus.