KC Joyner- Dallas safety metrics in his chat 7-5

[sacase]

The question is are YOU stupid, simple or slow? It's called simple math - if Marcus Spears has 2.5 sacks this year - he will one, double his career total, and two, more then double his output from last year. Hence why I used the word "double." They can't produce more and NOT double their totals.

But rather an insulting me - my Lord says don't change the subject and answer the ******* question: What have Canty and Spears shown that gives you the impression that they can apply any pressure on their own?

[\quote]

Learn to read please. I said the DLINE, not CANTY/SPEARS. If Spears has 1.5 sacks this year he improves on last year and doesn't double his total. Fact of the matter I am referring to the DL as a whole unit not spcific players. so even by your simple math he can improve and not double his total. Is it nit picky? yes it is but it seems like you insist on playing childish games.

Yet hopefully Carpenter can start, from nowhere. While McIntosh - despite displaying a lot of talent and reaping a lot of praise - is practicing with the starters - yet he's a "career back up". That's crap - and you know it. [\quote]

Ok McIntosh is starting. Its not like he went out and actually beat someone for the position. He started 1 game at the end of the season. The guy in front of him was let go. He wins by default but hey you are right he is starting and there is still someone ahead of carpenter. Yes I hope Carpenter can start, even though I don't think highly of him I still think he is better than James. If you notice I also mentioned Burnett.

Ok - how games did Henry miss? How many games did anyone in your secondary miss? 0. And yet they put up almost as bad numbers across the board. This is my problem with Cowboys fans. They are so enamored with Newman that they miss the fact that the rest of the secondary blows goats.

And Hamlin is worse then Taylor in coverage.

[\quote]

My problem with you is you have to massage "facts" to fit your argument. You know Henry was playing with an significant injury. When you have a BIG hole at FS and your RCB is playing hurt yeah you are going to take some serious lumps. I am not saying the Dallas seondary is a top 5 secondary. I said they are SOLID. Big defference.

Your opinion of Hamlin being worse than Taylor in coverage is irrelevent. Fact of the matter is, he is better than what was back ther previously.

Perhaps you need to do a little research before you post instead of talking out your arse, and then insulting people when you get called on it.

Perhaps you need to start using some reading comprehension and stop using faulty logic to support your posts. Quit ASSuming I am saying something that I haven't.

From '03 - '05 he was moved to Outside LB. He missed seven games in '04.

In addition to 6 sacks, he also had 5.5 tackles for loss. And put up 56 total tackles. Not a bad season for transitioning back to DE from LB. But then again, don't let those facts get in the way.

Of course you do...James can't cover, Ayodele is nbothing special and god knows what you have on the outside opposite Ware - who is the only LB i'd take on the Skins. Fletcher and Washington are special players - as you said. With the promise that Rocky is showing this offseason - that puts them ahead of the Dallas crew.

Your right that is not bad for Carter, but it is nothing special. Ellis is also just as good as your guys if not better. Remember he was leading the team in sacks and tackles for loss before he got hurt.

Yes Fletcher and Washington and damn good. McIntosh shouldn't even be put in the discussion. Ayodele is better than he is. Ware is better than anything you ahve. Ellis is just as good as anyone you have. I like our depth and think Burnett is a good player and supposedly Carpenter is going to play in the nickle. Spencer is a bit of an unknown since he is a rookie, but by all acounts he is further along than Ware was. All this to say that its ok to agree to disagree. You like your LB's I like ours. Nothing wrong with that and there is no way to tell whose was better until the end of the season and even then it is a bit subjective.

That remains to be seen - but despite your efforts - you're homer slant comes through in the comparison between McIntosh and Carp. McIntosh is starting, right now. Carp is not. That puts him ahead of Carp. Period.

Come on now, even you know that is a homer statement and a cop out. There are back up quarterback in the NFL who don't start, but are better than some starters. Quit using weak rational.

First off, neither is Newman. You don;t play like he did against Detroit with the season on the line and call yourself elite.

Second - Poor rookie year? What do you base that statement on?

Third - he's a 2nd year player. I would still take Rogers and Smoot over Henry and Glenn anyday. I would love to see the debacle of that Dallas defense with Newman sitting for half a season...

My problem with your post is that is all opinion and little fact. True Williams does make plays - but he is burnt far more often. Williams cost you that playoff game b/c he and Bradie James couldn't cover Jerramy Stevens - hardly a top TE.

Newman has had what 2 TD's scored on him in the past two years? If that is not elite then it is damn close. Even elite corners have bad games.

Yes POOR rookie year. Top 10 pick with 2 INT and 2 PD. Poor. Again you can have your coners and I can have mine and we both can be perfectly happy.

[SonnyJ]

Are you stupid, simple or slow? Where in my post did I say they were going to double. My exact words were "the D line will be making more sacks (not a lot more, but more)" For some reason you cannot comprehend the difference between one gap and two gap line play. For the last time here it is. In a two gap the DL basically stand up the OL in front of them determine if it is a pass or a run and where there play is going, then they can make their move to try and get to the QB. This takes a second to read and react. In a one gap the DL can immediatly attack the gap they are assigned to attack the ball carrier or QB. By nature it allows for more active DL play. Parcells has said many times he wants his DL to eat blockers not get sacks.

See, here's the part that I don't get with this line of argument regarding the DL play from Cowboy fans. Obviously, coaches have their philosophies and preferences. Parcells was a two-gap guy - doesn't it stand to reason, then, that the players he acquired to play DL for him are more naturally suited for the two-gap role? That maybe asking them to play one-gap is like fitting a square peg into a round hole?

Furthermore, if one-gap was the superior option, wouldn't everyone play one-gap? In all likelihood, yes. Being as there are differing schools of thought on the matter, I'd say there are positives and negatives to both styles, independent of the personnel question. Basically, committing to one-gap means that you're taking a trade-off - probably achieving more TFLs but at the expense of giving up more big plays, not to mention susceptibility to misdirection, cutbacks, etc.

The Parcells school of thought was that he didn't want to give up cheap yards, make the offense work for everything, and eventually they would make mistakes to kill the drive. Phillips seems to want to go after the opposing offense, force them to make mistakes and succumb to the pressure, and the other team won't be able to make enough big plays to offset the damage his defense can do. Both schools of thought have definite merit, given the right personnel for implementation.

I just find it hard to believe that Phillips is going to easily take the players Parcells used for his philosophy and seamlessly apply it to his own. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just skeptical that the players Parcells acquired weren't good fits for the way he wanted to run his defense. :whoknows:

[ouvan59]

Yes POOR rookie year. Top 10 pick with 2 INT and 2 PD. Poor. Again you can have your coners and I can have mine and we both can be perfectly happy.

I love it when people try to use stats to justify CB play. By your logic Rogers had a better year last year than Newman because while they had the same number of interceptions Rogers had more passes defensed. And by the way, are you sure about those 2 PD? You sure it's not double or triple that since NFL.com where I believe you got your stats shows him with 2 unless you go into the game log and then it shows that he had 3 alone against San Diego. Either way, stats don't tell even close to the whole story for a CB.

Carlos Rogers hardly had a poor rookie season. He was brought along slowly like most Skins rookies are and then played more as the year went along before getting hurt. He was actually looking pretty darn good. He struggled at times last year but still showed some good signs like his ability to run support. Hopefully his year last year was a case of the sophomore slump that so many CBs suffer through (Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, Terrence Newman...).

[dfos81]

Just go watch Dallas's secondary play down the stretch last year and tell me w/ a straight face what Dallas player is elite? Not Even a TOP LB(Ware) AND CB(Newman) could help Dallas's D last year. I mean if anything, Dallas has under achieved for over a decade now.

[sacase]

See, here's the part that I don't get with this line of argument regarding the DL play from Cowboy fans. Obviously, coaches have their philosophies and preferences. Parcells was a two-gap guy - doesn't it stand to reason, then, that the players he acquired to play DL for him are more naturally suited for the two-gap role? That maybe asking them to play one-gap is like fitting a square peg into a round hole?

Furthermore, if one-gap was the superior option, wouldn't everyone play one-gap? In all likelihood, yes. Being as there are differing schools of thought on the matter, I'd say there are positives and negatives to both styles, independent of the personnel question. Basically, committing to one-gap means that you're taking a trade-off - probably achieving more TFLs but at the expense of giving up more big plays, not to mention susceptibility to misdirection, cutbacks, etc.

The Parcells school of thought was that he didn't want to give up cheap yards, make the offense work for everything, and eventually they would make mistakes to kill the drive. Phillips seems to want to go after the opposing offense, force them to make mistakes and succumb to the pressure, and the other team won't be able to make enough big plays to offset the damage his defense can do. Both schools of thought have definite merit, given the right personnel for implementation.

I just find it hard to believe that Phillips is going to easily take the players Parcells used for his philosophy and seamlessly apply it to his own. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just skeptical that the players Parcells acquired weren't good fits for the way he wanted to run his defense. :whoknows:

I see it as two different schools of thought. In the NFL different teams have been successful at different things. To be honest I kind of think that parcells was trying to force guys to fit his defense. Many of them have complained that they were not being used right. Philips likes to put players in positions to succeed. I am not to worried about Phillips style since it has been proven to be successful everywhere he has been. Its not like this is a completly new concept on defense it has been tried many times before and been successful.

[SonnyJ]

I see it as two different schools of thought. In the NFL different teams have been successful at different things. To be honest I kind of think that parcells was trying to force guys to fit his defense. Many of them have complained that they were not being used right. Philips likes to put players in positions to succeed. I am not to worried about Phillips style since it has been proven to be successful everywhere he has been. Its not like this is a completly new concept on defense it has been tried many times before and been successful.

Well, again, why would Parcells go out and acquire players that were an ill-fit for what he wanted to do on defense? You may not agree with his philosophy, but I think we can both agree that Parcells knew what he needed in the way of players to run his defense the way that fit his philosophy. So, it stands to reason that the DL on the team were well-suited to the two-gap philosophy.

To claim otherwise would be to suggest that either Parcells had no idea what type of player he needed to run his defense, or that he willfully ignored his defensive philosophy when he acquired players. I guess a third option could be that the players are equally adept at both techniques, in which case I can only imagine that improvement would come through better playcalling.

At the end of the day, I think that that is the overriding hope of Cowboy fans - that Phillips and his minions will call a better defensive game than the Parcells/Zimmer duo. It's indeed possible, but I always thought that Parcells greatest strength was the preparation of his teams, which is why Gibbs always had problems with him back in the day.

[Riggo#44]

Learn to read please. I said the DLINE, not CANTY/SPEARS.

Cool - rely on semantics rather than address the issue...

If Spears has 1.5 sacks this year he improves on last year and doesn't double his total.

Are you serious? 1.5 sacks...that's funny. Real improvement...and you bust on Carter...:laugh:

That's hilarious...

Fact of the matter I am referring to the DL as a whole unit not spcific players. so even by your simple math he can improve and not double his total. Is it nit picky? yes it is but it seems like you insist on playing childish games.

More semantics and name-calling - typical when a Cowboy fans talks out their ass and gets called on it. The FACT is your starting D-Line registered a total of 4 sacks. None of them have shown anything to date of having any kind of pass rushing ability. Prove me wrong.

Ok McIntosh is starting. Its not like he went out and actually beat someone for the position. He started 1 game at the end of the season. The guy in front of him was let go. He wins by default but hey you are right he is starting and there is still someone ahead of carpenter. Yes I hope Carpenter can start, even though I don't think highly of him I still think he is better than James. If you notice I also mentioned Burnett.

So Carp is battling for the top back up spot? :laugh:

Have you read anything that has been coming out of camp? McIntosh has been putting in the time and earning it. He has impressed the coaches. Not to mention he still has Lemar Mashall to deal with - who played very well there in '05. So he hasn't been handed anything. Again, all factless opinion and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

My problem with you is you have to massage "facts" to fit your argument. You know Henry was playing with an significant injury. When you have a BIG hole at FS and your RCB is playing hurt yeah you are going to take some serious lumps. I am not saying the Dallas seondary is a top 5 secondary. I said they are SOLID. Big defference.

Your opinion of Hamlin being worse than Taylor in coverage is irrelevent. Fact of the matter is, he is better than what was back ther previously.

Oh you're #2 CB played with an injury...poor, poor Cowboys how did they manage? I would love to see evidence of this "significant injury". What injury was it?

So you're the Dallas unit is "solid" I have yet to see anything that backs that up other than your opinion. The FACT is, they were a terrible unit, ranked #24 in the league, and not once did they ever have to start ther 3rd and 4th CBs in a game.

As far as massaging facts - I could probably accuse you the saem...if you provided any...

Yes Hamlin may be better then what they had, but that's like saying Landry will be better than Archuleta.

Perhaps you need to start using some reading comprehension and stop using faulty logic to support your posts. Quit ASSuming I am saying something that I haven't.

:laugh: That's just funny. You're a real treat here.

Your right that is not bad for Carter, but it is nothing special. Ellis is also just as good as your guys if not better. Remember he was leading the team in sacks and tackles for loss before he got hurt.

He had 31 tackles, 4.5 sacks through 10 games. Ware had 38 and 5 through 10. Bradie James had 52 tackles through 10. So don't make it out like Ellis was the lynchpin of that defense. Or am I massaging facs again? And no Ellis is not as good as Fletcher or Washington.

Yes Fletcher and Washington and damn good. McIntosh shouldn't even be put in the discussion. Ayodele is better than he is. Ware is better than anything you ahve. Ellis is just as good as anyone you have. I like our depth and think Burnett is a good player and supposedly Carpenter is going to play in the nickle. Spencer is a bit of an unknown since he is a rookie, but by all acounts he is further along than Ware was. All this to say that its ok to agree to disagree. You like your LB's I like ours. Nothing wrong with that and there is no way to tell whose was better until the end of the season and even then it is a bit subjective.

I will give you Ware, but if we are going to remove Rocky, then remove Carp and remove Spencer. B/c you're applying the same logic to them that I am applying to Rocky.

Newman has had what 2 TD's scored on him in the past two years? If that is not elite then it is damn close. Even elite corners have bad games.

Until I see proof, I refuse to believe you. This is the second greatest phantom argument behind "Taylor gave up the most TDs in the league last year". I just shot holes in your "Ellis was leading is sacks and tackles" argument - so you clearly have done no research and are talking out of your ass.

Yes POOR rookie year. Top 10 pick with 2 INT and 2 PD. Poor. Again you can have your coners and I can have mine and we both can be perfectly happy.

So if this kind of reasoning is applied to Rogers - then the same can be applied to Canty and Spears. But then again I am probably massaging facts.