The Evolution of Beauty

[chomerics]

A great video, and it exposes a serious problem with our culture. I applaud Dove for combatting the self esteem problem of women.

http://www.viralvideochart.com/youtube/dove_real_beauty__evolution?id=iYhCn0jf46U

[Mass_SkinsFan]

A great video, and it exposes a serious problem with our culture. I applaud Dove for combatting the self esteem problem of women.

http://www.viralvideochart.com/youtube/dove_real_beauty__evolution?id=iYhCn0jf46U

While I definitely agree that this is a huge problem, I think the biggest cultural issue for women when it comes to beauty can be summed up in one word....

MEN

[Brave]

While I definitely agree that this is a huge problem, I think the biggest cultural issue for women when it comes to beauty can be summed up in one word....

MEN

That MAY be true, but I'd guarantee a close 2nd is ...

WOMEN.

It's more than just the attentions of men that women worry about. And I'm not talking lesbianism, either. But rather, competitiveness.

[CoachingWinsChampionships]

But what are they competing for Brave?

The attention of men, or at least the knowledge that they would be able to get it if they wanted to.

[Duckus]

Wow. The photoshop part is crazy.

[chomerics]

While I definitely agree that this is a huge problem, I think the biggest cultural issue for women when it comes to beauty can be summed up in one word....

MEN

Being a man, I have to disagree. I believe a lot of their esteem problems arise from the stygma society places on the female, and how many feel inadequate for not being "perfect". I mean it is utterly ludicrous how Hollywood and mass media perpetuate the image of the female, and this was a great example.

I applaud dove for their efforts, and they are actually trying to do something quite unique. THey are getting name brand recognition with an advertising campaign geared towards changing the mythical belief of beauty in America. Kudos to them.

[Brave]

But what are they competing for Brave?

The attention of men, or at least the knowledge that they would be able to get it if they wanted to.

Perhaps in part, but I don't think that's the whole story. Admittedly, this is all guessing on my part because I am not a women. I am not even particularly in touch with my "femine side," so to speak.

I think women are often competitive about their looks without men being at the center of it.

Perhaps some of our lovely, lady members can confirm or deny.

[alexey]

This does not seem to be much different from what people have been doing to themselves for centuries... Perhaps the separation between socio-economic classes was deeper before, confining this sort of thing to a smaller group of people. Economic development and information sharing seem to be turning this sort of thing into a mass hysteria

Tendencies of this sort seem to reflect the overall mental health of our nation and humanity in general... but they are as old as humanity itself.

[chomerics]

This does not seem to be much different from what people have been doing to themselves for centuries... Perhaps the separation between socio-economic classes was deeper before, confining this sort of thing to a smaller group of people. Economic development and information sharing seem to be turning this sort of thing into a mass hysteria

Tendencies of this sort seem to reflect the overall mental health of our nation and humanity in general... but they are as old as humanity itself.

Oh, I completely disagree. I believe it is a new phenenomenom which started to perpetuate itself in the 70's and became a major issue in the 90's until now. I really don't think there were eating disorders when people starved themselves to "look attractive" in the middle ages. It is something society has had fall upon itself, and the self image of people is something society can change. I do believe Dove is doing a great thing for society.

[JohnLockesGhost]

Oh, I completely disagree. I believe it is a new phenenomenom which started to perpetuate itself in the 70's and became a major issue in the 90's until now. I really don't think there were eating disorders when people starved themselves to "look attractive" in the middle ages. It is something society has had fall upon itself, and the self image of people is something society can change. I do believe Dove is doing a great thing for society.

You're right to say that the idea of WHAT is beautiful has changed, but women have always tried to make themselves beautiful. In the Middle Ages it would be attractive to be plump and pale. Why? Because it meant you were rich enough to not have to work outside and had plenty to eat.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Being a man, I have to disagree. I believe a lot of their esteem problems arise from the stygma society places on the female, and how many feel inadequate for not being "perfect". I mean it is utterly ludicrous how Hollywood and mass media perpetuate the image of the female, and this was a great example.

I totally agree that the mass media and Hollywood have a lot to do with it, but I think the individual Men in a woman's life have a HUGE impact on it as well. Largely because of a lack of communication.

How many guys do we all know who only comment on how their SO (significant other) looks when she's dressed up in heels, the short skirt or tight jeans and a top that's really two sizes too small? How many guys do we all know who routinely forget to tell the ladies in their life that they look beautiful WITHOUT the makeup, push-up bra, miniskirt and heels? If the rest of this board is anything like me, that number is pretty large.

Then we let our lady see us ogling the ladies in the SI Swimsuit Issue, the Victoria Secret Catalog, or other quasi-pornographic publications; and don't forget all the porn that most guys look at regularly. Yet we never remember to explain to our ladies that there's a difference between Love and Lust and that we really don't want to leave them for some size 2 model with more surgical scars than a cadaver and more silocone than a California valley in and on her body. We need to explain to our ladies both often and repeatedly that it's more than just their bodies that attract us to them, and that if they've put on a few pounds or gained a dress size it doesn't mean we're going to be headed for the door the moment we notice it.

I applaud dove for their efforts, and they are actually trying to do something quite unique. THey are getting name brand recognition with an advertising campaign geared towards changing the mythical belief of beauty in America. Kudos to them.

The "myth" of beauty changes over time. That's a fact of society that has always existed and always will exist. Every culture and society in history has had a definition of beauty that has evolved through the course of its history. The modern vision of feminie "beauty" would have been considered too gaunt and thin in medieval/reneissance times. The "Reubenesque" beauties of that day and age would be considered oversized and "fat" in modern times.

It's great that Dove is trying to remind women that "beauty" is only skid deep, but let's not forget that we're not the only society in history to have these issues.

[chomerics]

You're right to say that the idea of WHAT is beautiful has changed, but women have always tried to make themselves beautiful. In the Middle Ages it would be attractive to be plump and pale. Why? Because it meant you were rich enough to not have to work outside and had plenty to eat.

I agree, and I know that the "pretty" people in the middle ages were the "portly" ones because of exactly what you stated. But I think right now, there is a problem with society and their dictation to the masses of what "beauty" is. I think the people in charge of things like placing people on the covers of magazines and the Madison Ave crowd should re-examine their belief system, and start to change the image they protray as beauty, much like in this clip.

[JohnLockesGhost]

I agree, and I know that the "pretty" people in the middle ages were the "portly" ones because of exactly what you stated. But I think right now, there is a problem with society and their dictation to the masses of what "beauty" is. I think the people in charge of things like placing people on the covers of magazines and the Madison Ave crowd should re-examine their belief system, and start to change the image they protray as beauty, much like in this clip.

The only thing I would pick at is your notion of what "society" is. You narrow it done to a few puppetmasters on Madison Ave., but we are society.

Honestly (and this may seem like a strange analogy), this reminds me of a conversation I had with a business consultant we had at work. She said something about how we need to prepare for the economy to get worse. And I looked at her funny and asked, "you mean for the flow of clients to slow?" So she said yes, basically. So I pressed on her on why she's talking about "the economy," this vast, nebulous entity, when instead we should be planning for specific contingencies, salient to our business.

My point is, we ARE the economy, just like we ARE society. It is WE who are at fault when it comes to these issues of beauty and objectification.

[alexey]

Oh, I completely disagree. I believe it is a new phenenomenom which started to perpetuate itself in the 70's and became a major issue in the 90's until now. I really don't think there were eating disorders when people starved themselves to "look attractive" in the middle ages. It is something society has had fall upon itself, and the self image of people is something society can change. I do believe Dove is doing a great thing for society.

Well sure, people were not volunterily starving themselves during the middle ages... most people had more pressing concerns, such as finding food in order to survive. People without such pressing concens, however, were more likely to engage in similar actions in the name of beauty.

Sure a society where day-to-day survival is not a pressing concern is more likely to engage in these sorts of behavior. This is not a new phenomenon.. This is your regular human neurosis combined with boredom that allows it to grow. This happens for majority of humans every time you combine boredom with human nature.

Note that I am not attempting to take any credit away from Dove for attempting to reduce this particular form of neurosis

Also, the Karen Padaung tribe of Thailand:

[Cdowwe]

I basically saw an average girl turn into a hot one. Nothing wrong with that

[DCsportsfan53]

Oh, I completely disagree. I believe it is a new phenenomenom which started to perpetuate itself in the 70's and became a major issue in the 90's until now. I really don't think there were eating disorders when people starved themselves to "look attractive" in the middle ages. It is something society has had fall upon itself, and the self image of people is something society can change. I do believe Dove is doing a great thing for society.

I don't think so. I think his exact point is this is something that's ALWAYS been displayed, just that now a larger % of the population has the opportunity to worry about it. For example, what about the crazy corsets women in the 1800s tied around themselves (ridiculously tight I might add) so they looked thinner and their breasts looked bigger? Seems to me that's an old fashioned implant and tummy tuck.

[hu-bison-skinsfan]

Perhaps in part, but I don't think that's the whole story. Admittedly, this is all guessing on my part because I am not a women. I am not even particularly in touch with my "femine side," so to speak.

I think women are often competitive about their looks without men being at the center of it.

Perhaps some of our lovely, lady members can confirm or deny.

Allow me to deny. Some of the more "interesting" discussions that I've had with my husband are about his notions of beauty -- and how he expresses them. True, self-image is most important but men can be incredibly insensitive about the messages that they send.

[stevenaa]

Allow me to deny. Some of the more "interesting" discussions that I've had with my husband are about his notions of beauty -- and how he expresses them. True, self-image is most important but men can be incredibly insensitive about the messages that they send.

Maybe women are over sensitive about how they recieve these perceived messages. Maybe this is the self esteem issue. If you are comfortable with how you look, how can you be affected by messages that your husband is "sending" when he has no idea he's "sending" messages and has no intent in doing so.

[chomerics]

I totally agree that the mass media and Hollywood have a lot to do with it, but I think the individual Men in a woman's life have a HUGE impact on it as well. Largely because of a lack of communication.

How many guys do we all know who only comment on how their SO (significant other) looks when she's dressed up in heels, the short skirt or tight jeans and a top that's really two sizes too small? How many guys do we all know who routinely forget to tell the ladies in their life that they look beautiful WITHOUT the makeup, push-up bra, miniskirt and heels? If the rest of this board is anything like me, that number is pretty large.

Then we let our lady see us ogling the ladies in the SI Swimsuit Issue, the Victoria Secret Catalog, or other quasi-pornographic publications; and don't forget all the porn that most guys look at regularly. Yet we never remember to explain to our ladies that there's a difference between Love and Lust and that we really don't want to leave them for some size 2 model with more surgical scars than a cadaver and more silocone than a California valley in and on her body. We need to explain to our ladies both often and repeatedly that it's more than just their bodies that attract us to them, and that if they've put on a few pounds or gained a dress size it doesn't mean we're going to be headed for the door the moment we notice it.

The "myth" of beauty changes over time. That's a fact of society that has always existed and always will exist. Every culture and society in history has had a definition of beauty that has evolved through the course of its history. The modern vision of feminie "beauty" would have been considered too gaunt and thin in medieval/reneissance times. The "Reubenesque" beauties of that day and age would be considered oversized and "fat" in modern times.

It's great that Dove is trying to remind women that "beauty" is only skid deep, but let's not forget that we're not the only society in history to have these issues.

I completely agree wtih everything you stated MSF, great post.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Maybe women are over sensitive about how they recieve these perceived messages. Maybe this is the self esteem issue. If you are comfortable with how you look, how can you be affected by messages that your husband is "sending" when he has no idea he's "sending" messages and has no intent in doing so.

steven, you need to remember that we live in a world where perception is reality. You also need to remember that women are generally more perceptive of the small things going on around them than most of us guys are. Women also take the comments and actions of the men in their lives very seriously most of the time. So what does this mean....

It means that the SI Swimsuit Issue and Victoria Secret Catalogue we have stashed away for those private moments, the comments we make to each other about the breasts on some lead actress in the movie we just watched, and the fact that some guys spend more on porn/strip clubs every month than they do on their lady in a year ALL mean something to the ladies in our life. They take these things as signals to them about how we view them, and women in general.

That means when you and I are talking about the lead actress in the film we just watched while sitting with our ladies at dinner and one of us says "Well, she's pretty but she'd be a real knock-out if she had bigger tits." the ladies may well take that as "Gee, I just read in a magazine that the actress he's talking about has a b cup chest. I have b cups. Does that mean he thinks I need bigger breasts?" That may not be what we meant at all, but that could easily be how it's interpreted.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I completely agree wtih everything you stated MSF, great post.

Thanks chom. One of the few things we agree on.

[Air Force Cane]

if Hollywood was not overwhelmingly anorexic maybe we wouldn't have these problems :doh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

if Hollywood was not overwhelmingly anorexic maybe we wouldn't have these problems :doh:

That's a cop-out, AFC, and I think you know it. I would really like to think that I have a much greater influence on the ladies in my life through my words and actions than some tv or movie does. If not, then I probably need to rethink the relationship to begin with.

[Destino]

Maybe women are over sensitive about how they recieve these perceived messages. Maybe this is the self esteem issue. If you are comfortable with how you look, how can you be affected by messages that your husband is "sending" when he has no idea he's "sending" messages and has no intent in doing so.

We all have buttons stevenaa. Women tend to be more sensitive about their looks but men aren't exactly lacking for weak spots either. Women are just better about avoiding those land mines then men are. See what happens if a woman implies that a man is a "failure" and see how he takes it. Doesn't have to be direct just an off hand remark implying that he never made much of himself.

Or if they really want to hit the pride nerve... they can imply he's terrible in the sack or doesn't measure up all that well. See how graceful a man takes that.

if he was perfectly confident and happy with himself those comments wouldn't sting right? Right?!

[DCsportsfan53]

Personally, I never understood how the modelesque look was so attractive to so many people. I've always thought a girl was most beautiful without the makeup and all the other crap. To me, it's always been a shame they didn't agree with me on that.