Punishing children

[BlueTalon]

Just in case you are not be sarcastic, and if I got it right. I think Henry was referring to Jan Hunt!!

I wasn't being the least bit sarcastic, I was being shocked. But I think you may be right -- he quoted AlexRS who refered to Henry answering Predicto who used Jan Hunt as a resource. Oh well... I'm back to being confused again. AlexRS's comments as a woman made a whole lot more sense to me than AlexRS's comments as a man.

[stevenaa]

Some disagree.

Ten Reasons Not to Hit Your Kids

by Jan Hunt, M.Sc.

In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, Israel, Germany and Austria, it is illegal for a parent, teacher, or anyone else to spank a child. In some states and provinces, it is only illegal for a teacher to spank. In all areas of North America, physical punishment by a parent, as long as it is not severe, is still seen by many as necessary discipline, and condoned, or sadly, even encouraged. For the past several years, many psychiatrists, sociological researchers, and parents have recommended that we seriously consider banning the physical punishment of children. The most important reason, according to Dr. Peter Newell, coordinator of the organization End Punishment of Children (EPOCH)1, is that "all people have the right to protection of their physical integrity, and children are people too."2

1. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves. Extensive research data is now available to support a direct correlation between corporal punishment in childhood and aggressive or violent behavior in the teenage and adult years. Virtually all of the most dangerous criminals were regularly threatened and punished in childhood. It is nature's plan that children learn attitudes and behaviors through observation and imitation of their parents' actions, for good or ill. Thus it is the responsibility of parents to set an example of empathy and wisdom.

2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience, to neglect of basic needs. Among these needs are: proper sleep and nutrition, treatment of hidden allergy, fresh air, exercise, and sufficient freedom to explore the world around him. But his greatest need is for his parents' undivided attention. In these busy times, few children receive sufficient time and attention from their parents, who are often too distracted by their own problems and worries to treat their children with patience and empathy. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected. For this reason, punishment is not only ineffective in the long run, it is also clearly unjust.

3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way. As the educator John Holt wrote, "When we make a child afraid, we stop learning dead in its tracks." A punished child becomes preoccupied with feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge, and is thus deprived of the opportunity to learn more effective methods of solving the problem at hand. Thus, a punished child learns little about how to handle or prevent similar situations in the future.

4. “Spare the rod and spoil the child”, though much quoted, is in fact a misinterpretation of Biblical teaching. While the “rod” is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. The book of Proverbs is attributed to Solomon, an extremely cruel man whose harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomon’s Proverbs. By contrast, the writings in the Gospels, the most important books in the Bible for Christians, contain the teachings of Jesus Christ, who urged mercy, forgiveness, humility, and non-violence. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.3

5. Punishment interferes with the bond between parent and child, as it is not human nature to feel loving toward someone who hurts us. The true spirit of cooperation which every parent desires can arise only through a strong bond based on mutual feelings of love and respect. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist. In contrast, cooperation based on respect will last permanently, bringing many years of mutual happiness as the child and parent grow older.

6. Many parents never learned in their own childhood that there are positive ways of relating to children. When punishment does not accomplish the desired goals, and if the parent is unaware of alternative methods, punishment can escalate to more frequent and dangerous actions against the child.

7. Anger and frustration which cannot be safely expressed by a child become stored inside; angry teenagers do not fall from the sky. Anger that has been accumulating for many years can come as a shock to parents whose child now feels strong enough to express this rage. Punishment may appear to produce "good behavior" in the early years, but always at a high price, paid by parents and by society as a whole, as the child enters adolescence and early adulthood.

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children" (also in French).

Even relatively moderate spanking can be physically dangerous. Blows to the lower end of the spinal column send shock waves along the length of the spine, and may injure the child. The prevalence of lower back pain among adults in our society may well have its origins in childhood punishment. Some children have become paralyzed through nerve damage from spanking, and some have died after mild paddlings, due to undiagnosed medical complications.

9. Physical punishment gives the dangerous and unfair message that "might makes right", that it is permissible to hurt someone else, provided they are smaller and less powerful than you are. The child then concludes that it is permissible to mistreat younger or smaller children. When he becomes an adult, he can feel little compassion for those less fortunate than he is, and fears those who are more powerful. This will hinder the establishment of meaningful relationships so essential to an emotionally fulfilling life.

10. Because children learn through parental modeling, physical punishment gives the message that hitting is an appropriate way to express feelings and to solve problems. If a child does not observe a parent solving problems in a creative and humane way, it can be difficult for him to learn to do this himself. For this reason, unskilled parenting often continues into the next generation.

Gentle instruction, supported by a strong foundation of love and respect, is the only truly effective way to bring about commendable behavior based on strong inner values, instead of superficially "good" behavior based only on fear.

I have no problem with someone deciding not to spank. As I've stated, it is one tool and not effective with every child. It would be a waste of time to spank my middle child. She doesn't respond to it. So, I'm not one who believes or espouses that parents who don't spank aren't providing their children with enough discipline. I do believe your are missing an effective tool.

The above excerpt goes far beyond not spanking to the absurdness of not punishing. The suppositions are, in my opinion, ludicrous.

1. Violent criminals are typically abused as children. This is far different than punished or spanked.

2. Punishment is unjust? Please. Any good parent knows when his/her child is acting out due to hunger or lack of sleep.

3. Total garbage. This is the outcome of abuse, not proper punishment.

4. I don't argue the "Spare the rod" cliche because I don't believe spanking is necessary for all children.

5. Total garbage. Kids do not resent punishment. They understand cause and affect.

6. Again, their are many different forms of punishment. You use the one most effective for the situation. Punishment isn't a starter drug to abuse. An abuser is an abuser. You don't grow into one because you decide to punish your child.

7. No. This comes from a lack of parental involvent and attention.

8. Just too stupid to even comment on the sexual relationship.

Children are fragile. You spank them hard enough to actually hurt them and your an idiot. And an abuser.

9. This is not true. Again, anything taken to the extreme will cause negative results.

10. Yet none of my child ever hit. How do you explain that? Because they are spanked for very specific reasons, not to solve every problem that arises.

[Predicto]

One of the worst threads of all time.

Predicto at least advanced an actual method to his own parenting (though I'd imagine there are subtleties we cannot be witness to on Extreme.)

My wife and I have a code word for when our children are being recalcitrant or unreasonable.

We tell them that if they do not shape up, right now, there will be "consequences" to their actions. We deliberately refuse to tell them what those consequences are in advance. In the past, they have been such things as no TV for a day or a week, no dessert, removal of a favorite toy for a day or a week, revocation of a trip to the playground or the beach, etc.

They rarely wish to learn what the consequences might be. As soon as we say the word "consequences" they almost always fall into line.

If they have already done something bad, we ask them to explain themselves and what they think is an appropriate consequence for what they did. Sometimes, they are harder on themselves than we would be, and genuinely feel bad about what they have done.

[LD0506]

It's sad to see so many people posting seemingly angry and negative comments on this subject. Personally I think it is a valid discussion and too important to just ignore. There are a lot of resources online for anyone that cares to delve further into this but don't expect any great clarification, I haven't been able to find any.

A note of thanks to stevenaa and Predicto among others for both explaining their respective points of view vigorously and not demeaning the bandwidth with insults and verbal atrocities.

A special round of applause to Henry for all his wit and wisdom, anyone that could read this thread and dismiss it just ain't paying attention.

It's already been a "week" if you get my drift and rather than spout off in Gothimus' mood thread about my inclination to flay someone, I think I'll just be absent for awhile.

[AlexRS]

Indeed most guys do not think the way I do

I'm a very special boy... if you know what I mean...

(perhaps we should start another thread discussing how much i suck? People who are actually trying to discuss things may be discouraged from doing so by all the negativity)

[Ghost of]

It's sad to see so many people posting seemingly angry and negative comments on this subject. Personally I think it is a valid discussion and too important to just ignore. There are a lot of resources online for anyone that cares to delve further into this but don't expect any great clarification, I haven't been able to find any.

LD--uh, you may have missed the entire thread but the angry and negative comments were about a poster NOT about the subject of parenting. It's Alex's approach to this thread that provoked the contentiousness you've read.

Notice the difference between exchanges involving Predicto and those from differing perspectives and those involving AlexRS.

Me personally, I think kids need to be beaten with chains with metal hooks in them from time to time. Worked for me! :laugh: