Art Posted July 28, 2002 Share Posted July 28, 2002 Spurrier's system and coaching ability created many players worthy of NFL consideration. Spurrier won the SEC in his first year, when recruiting wasn't a part of it. Spurrier hasn't had a reputation as a great recruiter. He has a reputation as a guy who expects a yes answer when he asks if you are coming to Florida and if he doesn't get it, then to hell with the guy he asked. He has specialized player types he seeks and those are not the biggest or best recruits in the nation. Florida, for example, routinely gets lesser recruiting classes than Notre Dame, Texas, Michigan, Miami, FSU, Neb., etc. Spurrier was simply a better coach than anything else. He had some fine players too. But, his coaching is why most were fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted July 28, 2002 Author Share Posted July 28, 2002 Gator Eye- I never did note your post. Thanks, because you're obviously better-versed in UF football than I am. Interestingly, your bottom-line conclusions are consistent with mine. I'd also point out that the reason I'm not dwelling on the issue of numbers of players from the SEC who have ended up being impact players at the NFL level is because you simply can't objectively quantify that. There are just too many variables. For example, here's a very pertinent (for us) question about one former UF player: are we to regard Jacquez Green as an NFL bust, or at least as a non-impact player, or do we pay attention to the fact that he has dwelled prior to this year in one of the least-inspired passing offenses in the NFL? Do we overlook players who were healthy throughout their college careers (which is really the time frame that we're comparing in this debate) but who have been plagued by injuries as pros? And what - for each position on the field as they all have different criteria - is/are the definition(s) of "impact player"? No, it's far too subjective and debateable to argue things on that level. And I say that even though I'm confident that former UF players, across the board, would fare well in the analysis. It's too easy to rely upon the basic information that is easily confirmable and therefore is objective, like numbers of draftees, numbers of active players, etc. This hydra has enough heads already! I would be interested in knowing, however, whether anyone is aware of a database that records ratings of NCAA Division I college recruiting classes dating back to at least the late 80's. It's for nothing in particular, just a little project I'm working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorEye Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Redman - glad I could support you. It is really tough equating college talent and NFL talent. And again the whole argument of whether a player is successful can really be determined by the system. Here's two examples: Keyshawn Johnson. I think most agree he is a pretty talented receiver through what he showed with the Jets. However, if he had spent his entire career at Tampa where they aren't throwing him the ball as much, would you have thought of him as an upper echelon receiver. You kind of don't even consider him in that category anymore because his production has been down. He's not playing for someone who is going to throw him the damn ball. Tony Gonzalez. If he were playing for someone that ran the run and shoot, you'd probably never know who he was. Most offenses are not going to feature a TE as a prominent part of their offense so he is lucky to play for a team that will. I think giving SOS two years to get the players and system in place will be enough time to evaluate if his system will work in the NFL. Personally, I don't think it will take that long. While he did have superior talent in college, I don't think that was the sole reason for our success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Horse Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 How many QBs or WRs of Spurrier's have ever made the Pro Bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 My opinion is that Spurrier has had a large number of players drafted to the NFL. How many have become stars? There are so many examples of Florida players who dominated in college but did not fair so well in the NFL. Saying that Spurrier has a talent advantage in college because of the amount of players drafted is wacked. If Florida had tons of NFL stars, then I could agree. The fact that none have been successful is even more proof that Spurrier has some kind of magic going. UF has never had a QB of Peyton Mannings stature, yet they always beat him. Would Wuerfel have been the Heisman winner at UT? I doubt it. And it's not because of the talent around him. You can see that players are excited to play in Washington already. Green and Anthony signed cheap. Trotter could have gone where ever he wanted, and now Darryl Gardner took much less money to be at FedEx field. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by codeorama My opinion is that Spurrier has had a large number of players drafted to the NFL. That's not an opinion. I've shown that that's fact. Originally posted by codeorama How many have become stars? There are so many examples of Florida players who dominated in college but did not fair so well in the NFL. I've already addressed this issue above. You simply can't objectively debate the issue of what former SEC players became star NFL players. There's too many variables, and at its most basic form, it even starts to become irrelevant to what college - not NFL - team had more talent. Originally posted by codeorama Saying that Spurrier has a talent advantage in college because of the amount of players drafted is wacked. Please explain why. I've given good explanations for why I think that it's a reasonable measure of talent at the college football level. Originally posted by codeorama The fact that none have been successful is even more proof that Spurrier has some kind of magic going. There have been a number of Gator fans on this board who have vehemently asserted that Spurrier is an outstanding coach, even going so far as to say that his talent is essentially unparalleled or that he's a genius, etc., no matter what level of football talent the UF program and players may have enjoyed. Despite that, you're the only one to go so far as to say that none of the NFL-bound Gators have been successful. Godfrey Miles, Brad Culpepper, Willie Jackson, Errict Rhett, Kevin Carter, Ike Hilliard, Fred Taylor, Jacquez Green, and Jevon Kearse, to name a few, would disagree. Are you that desperate to validate Spurrier? Me thinks you doth protest to much! Originally posted by codeorama UF has never had a QB of Peyton Mannings stature, yet they always beat him. I agree with this about Manning being superior (no pun). But funny, I recall football being a team game . . . Or are you saying that they only beat Manning but lost to UT? If it's the latter, what were the scores of the UF vs. Manning games? Originally posted by codeorama Would Wuerfel have been the Heisman winner at UT? I doubt it. And it's not because of the talent around him. I'd agree that Spurrier is enough of a hands-on QB coach to deserve credit for Wuerffel's college success. But the last statements are ridiculous. You're telling me that the fact that the Gators were the best team in college football, and were on their way to winning the National Championship (in a romp, I might add) had nothing to do with Wuerffel winning the Heisman? Ha! I suppose that Josh Heupel and Gino Torretta won because of great college QB coaching, and not because of the superior talent around them and because their teams were headed to National Championship games during their Heisman consideration. I suppose that the fact that Wuerffel played with two WR's who became starters in the NFL - Hilliard and Reidel Anthony - had nothing to do with it either. Fred Taylor at RB was a non-factor too, right? Originally posted by codeorama You can see that players are excited to play in Washington already. Green and Anthony signed cheap. Trotter could have gone where ever he wanted, and now Darryl Gardner took much less money to be at FedEx field. Go figure. Yup, just like those NFL players who were excited to play for us two years ago when we went on that signing spree, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 To me, superior talent is having players that are so gifted, the go on and are successful at the next level. I'm not saying that UF does not have gifted players, they obviously do. But Wuerffel is not physically gifted, neither is Matthews, or Terry Dean or Jesse Palmer or so on... Spurrier has always said his system puts brains above the rocket arm, courage above foot speed. A good coach can make average talent good. A great coach can make very good talent the best. Really, the ultimate point will be made after next year. How do the Redskins do. If Spurrier takes them to the Super Bowl, there is no argument. If the team has 8-8 or 9-7 records, then he has done no better than Norv or Marty. I don't think he had a talent advantage at Florida over FSU or Miami or any of the other elite programs for one reason alone. There are only 22 starters and a Blue Chip prospect is not going to sit the bench just to be on Spurrier's team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Granted Spurrier has had a lot of talent at his school but he has consistantly produced good teams no matter the talent level. He is a great coach and it allows him to get the very best out of the players, not all coaches can do this and certainly not all in the NFL. He will be able to draw the very best from his former gators because he know their strengths and weaknesses and how to work around them while using their skills to win games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 coderama and Funky, I agree with your above posts (although coder, you're again trying to change the fundamental assumption I made about elite college talent, but so be it). The point of this whole exercise is not to bash Spurrier. I regard him as an excellent coach who is worthy, as we sit here right now, of comparison to Jimmy Johnson as a new NFL coach. (I feel ill right now :puke: ) I'm just tired of overstatements about him and what he's done at the college level. Paul Bunyon didn't have as much fiction surrounding his exploits for gosh sakes! I can't wait to see what he does with our team. Already there's an energy on our team that we haven't had for two years (alas, the last time it was misplaced), and an optimism and confidence about a coach and where he'll lead us that I haven't seen in the organization in 11 years. I'm excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 That's a good point I can relate to. Don't get me wrong, I do not think Spurrier will turn Wuerffel into Dan Marino, but I think over a season or two, he will have the Redskins as an annual SB contender. I agree that yes Spurrier did have better talent for the most part than schools such as Virginia, NC State, but he had equal talent with Miami, FSU, Nebraska and quite a few other powerhouses. I just look at it this way, if he can win in the ACC with Duke, he can win the NFC east vs. the midgets, the crows and the cowgirls. Give him 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 Ah, what the hell, bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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