Fresh8686

10 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

Man, I got hella respect for Rosenstein holding the line against that **** ass Jim Jordan.

32 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

blah blah blah

So are mods going to ban this misogynistic racist already or does he get to waltz back in and out of the tailgate to **** with people? He contributes nothing and damn near derails every thread he comes into.

What's the deal? I'm seriously trying to understand what the rules are here. Are there different sets of rules for different people?

24 minutes ago, dcdiscokid said:

Sad part is Im white as white can get, Irish/German. So I guess im lucky in that my daughter carries my heritage by name and complexion, but the Jewish faith. I just have no idea where this hate mongering comes from. I cant look at another human as inferior to me because the pigment of there skin is different, its the dumbest ass thing ever.... 

Nothing sad about that man. There is nothing to be ashamed of for being white, or no need for a quasi-survivors guilt if you get what I'm saying. Regardless of skin color there is stress and pressure hitting people for having to live under **** that assaults their morals and strips them or the ones they care about of rights and liberties.

And yea, it's crazy how people attach their whole identity to nonsense ass **** like skin color. I'm so happy to be mixed and not have to deal with that.

But damn, I'm an ex-con, former muslim, white/black/arab mutt. The changing complexion of this government is not at all partial to my brand.

8 minutes ago, dcdiscokid said:

No I agree,  I consider leaving daily, this country is doing things that have nothing in common with my moral beliefs or what feels right. I am afraid for what my daughter may encounter in the future by an up rise in racist behavior since dictator trump took office.

I feel you man it's crazy to even have to think it, but even crazier to think of what the future might bring. I wish you and your daughters and family the best man. I feel the same fear for my sisters growing up in this ****. I worry when the next Muslim ban will come and take more countries away and if that will keep me from ever seeing my mother again.

My wife has nightmares and PTSD triggers from living with this guy in office. I won't let her face that again and again for the next however many years.

1 minute ago, dcdiscokid said:

Ultimately the fundamental failure is with the democratic party, knowing the emails were there, rigging the primary's, and trotting out a personality that was not well liked. I voted for her, by im a popular vote, not an impact vote.

A lot of people failed and that definitely includes those you mentioned. So, let's all leave it at that before we go down the blame game rabbit hole

Ugh, this SCOTUS **** makes me so angry. Just more stuff that makes me seriously consider getting out of this country in the next 5 years. I've already promised my Wife that if he get's re-elected we'll get the hell out of here.

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I'm with you. I was speaking to that in the thread about the GOP members being harassed. While I personally do not like them, and I think it's the least of what they deserve, the long term ramifications of it being socially acceptable to harass politicians whose policies you do not like while they are having dinner are not good in my book.

 

And what does such commentary bring? A bunch of botherism squawking, people complaining that the left is held to a different standard (which they should hope they are, i mean ffs the GOP's standard is trash. you want to be held to a standard of trash?), and justification. 

 

It's hard to have hope in things getting better long term when all we're seeing are people justifying/enjoying/furthering going worse and worse on every level. 

 

I don't know how you reach people on any of these issues. How do you convince people who use anger to justify their actions that they need to be better than that? How do you convince people who aren't smart enough to realize they're being duped, to stop being duped?

 

Especially now that we've ingrained in our society that you have some right to your own opinion and that said opinion is deserving of respect regardless of the merits of the opinion? We've allowed everyone to define what facts are for themselves.  You can't educate people - because anything that runs contrary to their viewpoint is deemed non-factual. 

 

We have no common view on what objective opinion is anymore, and any effort to establish one is met with the same nonsense all the time.

 

I think It was PeterMP, but it may have been PF Chang, who has spent quite a few posts, over different threads, talking about how the only way to get through to these people is to first establish a personal relationship and then leverage that into the conversation. I'll that's correct. I also think that while it's great for talking to your parents, it's impossible to scale that up to society as a whole.

 

Intellectualism is dead. Our people don't want it, our leaders don't need to have it. The masses are ignorant and dumb. And they enjoy being so.

I feel you and I'm glad you brought up those videos I think PeterMP posted a couple times. One common complaint I heard from conservatives about why Hillary lost, that I agree with is that she didn't invest in the ground game or go out and talk to people in certain states. You have to get personal with people in order to prime them for accepting new information that runs counter to previously held beliefs. They have to feel you and in some degree trust you or at least view you as having some intellectual honesty. A couple of posts and memes shot back and forth through facebook or a forum is not going to cut it.

I guess we can call it leadership or teaching, but the practice takes time. It takes actually sitting with a person and asking why do you think this way, and being a trustworthy mirror to those people when their internalized information falters. However, it also means challenging and instilling proper methods of communication and intellectual rigor, because many people do not communicate or take in information in good faith.

Intellectualism is like eating your vegetables. It's something that certain people only come to appreciate in time, once they can handle the mental stress of higher levels of complexity and acquire the self-restraint to enlarge and enrich the process of how they come to conclusions about things. And I think we have to approach it in that way when it comes to how deeply people may or may not think or research. We let too much shallow, sugar-high modes of information take up the majority of discourse.
 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

We're a profoundly ignorant people.  I honestly don't know why we can't get our **** together compared to the other rich democracies.  Too socially fragmented I guess.  There is zero feeling of authentic patriotism or willingness to sacrifice for the good of society in the average American.  This is where we've regressed as a people.

As a culture we've devalued the feeling of shared responsibility and community. Part of it I think, is that with technology we don't need to depend on each other as much, which limits the bonding that naturally occurs when working for things together as a team. But also, it's about what we've chosen to value instead, which is being the "best" or "on top" by any means necessary which is a needlessly extreme concept, that creates all sorts of weird pressures in people. 

When everyone is at a distance from each other, there is less chance for intimacy, vulnerability, and authenticity. Pillars that create a level of rapport with people that is vital to hold together a connection when having tough conversations. Without that strength of rapport people and connections fragment from each other and conflict is no longer dealt with via communication, but instead more base level actions.
 

29 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

The American public is being treated exactly how it deserves and has earned to be treated.

 

If you're going to be stupid, you should expect to be treated like you're stupid.

 

The current state of our public, in terms of being informed, is a complete and utter embarrassment considering this supposed Information Age we live in.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but we can only wallow in this sentiment for so long. Eventually, we as a society are going to have to realize we need to be better and to help those around us to be better. I'd love to see more educational segments on the news, even if it means locking a whole bunch of ignorant ass people from both sides in a room together Big Brother style and educating the **** out of them about our countries history and how and why certain values are necessary to up-hold and protect.

We as a society need to realize that the low hanging fruit of excitation via anger and fear and click-bait type ****, while effective in the short term, harms us greatly as a country in the long-term.

Really, we all as a society need to sit down together and hammer out a dedication to long-term sustainable growth/progress versus these short-term parasitical arrangements. But, that goes back to changing our values as a culture, from this extreme "be on top" by any means necessary bull****. That doesn't mean swinging to a sacrifice anything and everything for community kind of society, but instead a shift upwards and out of a binary mindset.

If you expand the concept from binary to tripartite, you have what I call a trinity worlds mindset. A society whose people values and practices a sense of awareness for their own individual world, the individual world of others, and the shared world, while holding them all in a balance together at the same time. In my experience that is the healthiest approach to community and relationships. 



 

"Here's a clue - whenever you offer these assholes middle ground, they will invade that space & then claim you never gave them ground at all."

The above, from part of that twitter thread BenningRoadSkin posted is like the core pattern of abusive people and why appeasing them will never work. You can't trust them or give them the benefit of the doubt, you have to have boundaries with them at all times.

These people are takers, who will twist the narrative over and over again to make it look like they're the victims, while they **** all over the values we hold dear.

Didn't feel like making another thread for it. Jesus, I hate how people twist religion into something so horrible.

I wonder how many churches are ran like a quasi-kingdom/mafia family that destroy people and abuse the **** out of female women and children. I'd like to see a task force created to handle all the abuse and fraud that occurs under the guise of religion.

My Wife had to deal with **** like this growing up around Baptists in Georgia.

8 hours ago, twa said:

Are you suggesting just waving groups avoiding the checkpoints thru or ignoring them?

How do you determine a felon is not in the group? .....once confronted you must process them,even more so if they claim asylum.

 

no offense but your history of getting arrested and citations does not bolster your arguments nor compare to border arrest protocols/requirements.

Again you're trying to deflect from the main point that the flip in ratio, the shift in focus from high priority targets, to low priority targets does not best suit the ultimate ends of law and order. It makes the border less safe, costs more money, fatigues our manpower, and is most of all inhumane.

Can you actually have a conversation where you don't swing between zero-sum absolutes? Of course I'm not suggesting avoiding or ignoring them. What we're talking about here is the added time that comes from making misdemeanors the top priority. Processing and release on bond, takes less time than processing and separation/detention, especially since most first time misdemeanor entries are considered to be civil cases, rather than criminal. That time saved was being used to focus more time and attention on felonies, but no longer.

That is the point.

And of course you're going to twist my history. The whole point of that is I have personal experience to draw from to posit a reasonable time study, in order to map out time frames and labor hours. If anything, it would take MORE time to process people at the border than to get a ticket or get arrested within the states. Just think through the logistics involved, the need for interpreters, etc. I was being very generous in my estimates and it still showed how unlikely to impossible it would be for felony arrest numbers to have stayed the same, with the reported flip in ratio.

 

38 minutes ago, twa said:

I don't see enforcing the border as stupid or cruel, nor releasing them into the US for a later court date as effective.

 

the raw data is influenced by composition, that so many are are attempting to cross illegally then claiming asylum certainly takes resources away from catching others though.

 

I guess a answer on sanctuary cities shielding felons won't be forthcoming.

We're discussing how to enforce the border, now whether or not to enforce the border. The effectiveness of release on bond has no direct bearing on the support of a policy that causes a drop in felony arrest for the sake of more misdemeanor charges.

Let's really think this ratio through. In order to maintain the same raw number of felony arrests as before they would have to also pack into that same day an additional 9 more people for misdemeanors for every one felony charge. Say a CBP agent arrests on average just 4 felony cases a day. That would mean they would have to also arrest an additional 36 people on misdemeanor charges within the same 8 or 12 hour shift.

I don't know about you, but I have plenty of experience with arrests and citations. With that said, it's fair to assume it can take on average 30 minutes per person to arrest, process, and hand-off to other authorities. If so, that would be 18 man hours for the 36 misdemeanor cases and 2 man hours for the felonies, which is a total of 20 hours of work in a day.

I really don't think, the above is what is happening here. For that to be the case there would have to be a history of only getting 2-3 man hours of effective labor per day, per the previous ratio.

2 minutes ago, twa said:

 

it beats your inference that they are ignoring non-families w/o even having real numbers.

 

ratios vary by the composition crossing....what was the composition of the caravan we heard so much about?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/world/americas/migrant-caravan-mexico.html

I addressed that already in my post. If the raw data supports the narrative I put forward, will that in any way change your stance?

That this policy is cruel and callous is beyond doubt. But, the above paired with examples like the amount of money they are spending per day for these tent cities compared to previous holdings through HHS give credence to the possibility that it is also a ****ing stupid policy as well.

So why support a stupid and cruel policy, that the previously posited evidence suggests, does not serve the ultimate goals of law and order?

19 minutes ago, twa said:

your concern over felons is commendable, I hope you agree cities should do all they can to see the felons turned over to ice.

Ah, a deflection and non-answer. Is that all you got?

So, for the law and order folks. How do you feel about the reports that the ratio of arrests have flipped to 90% Misdemeanors for first time crossing/seeking asylum and 10% Felony Arrest for things like trafficking when it used to be the other way around?

Now, we still have to see the raw numbers to properly evaluate that ratio, but it's safe to assume given the huge flip, that there will be consequences for such a drastic change in priority.

How many felony level crossings are being missed while they focus on arresting families?

Even with all the resources CBP has been given, it seems that blindly arresting anyone for breaking the law, especially when it's just a misdemeanor, does not best protect law and order. It makes more sense to do what we were previously doing, which was having a targeting priority process that focused on high level threats.

Should we have our police focus on arresting as many people as possible for jaywalking, to the detriment of going after murder, rape, and robbery? Sounds dumb doesn't it? So why are law and order folks behind this? Is it maybe because it's not about law and order at all, but something else whether ignorance, callousness, or bigotry?

28 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I guess i'm just tired of everyone pointing at trump and saying "look at what the monster is doing" while everyone else who has had a hand in this disaster walks free. No one else is receiving criticism. When the politicians retire we talk about how awesome they were and how much they'll be missed.

 

At a time where honest people should be standing in front of a mic saying they ****ed up and dropped the ball, we've got finger pointing and the number of people who care to point out out seems to be almost no one.

 

But yeah, sure. Look at what the monster is doing. He's a bad dude, no question about it.

 

I actually agree with you, but it's human nature to focus on the lightning rod and the whole putting effort into operational discipline to maintain focus on the people setting the fires in the background, rather than the 4 alarm blaze that is trump himself, is hard to come by.

People just don't have the training to get over the way this emotional vomit effects their nervous system, especially when they keep getting hit over and over again from one event after another. 

However, if we do take a breath and pause, we can acknowledge that there are people who are aware and acknowledge the problems before Trump that occurred throughout government that set the stage for someone like Trump to be next threshold breaching event of destruction that he is.

That's why I'm happy to see some competent non-establishment democrats running and winning. People who aren't out for political careers, but running because they feel something is wrong and want to fix it. There are people on the conservative side who share this sentiment, but the problem is, most of their non-establishment choices are ****ing lunatics.

Regardless of ideology, there needs to be a process that is sacrosanct. A process based on verifiable fact, a healthy expression of humanity and empathy (callousness is weakness), integrity, trust, self-awareness that is reflective and corrective of biases, and a mental competency that affords nuanced analysis, especially when dealing with competing or opposing forces/pressures.

25 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

At best maybe it doesn't get worse, for now.

 

It lets our leaders kick the can a little longer, let us get distracted by something else. It's a tactic proven to work.

Well, from what's been reported on the news, at the current rate of families being detained, they are going to run out of space at their family detention centers in just 8 days. And if anything that rate would only increase not drop, since the zero tolerance is still in effect.

Further, keeping them at detention centers keeps them in ICE hands which has a very poor track record compared to HHS.

17 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Um, who let Mengele in?

 

 

 

What the ****...

 

Quote

“You don’t have to be a rocket scientist here; it looks like they’re trying to control agitation and aggressive behavior with antipsychotic drugs,” said Mills, who practices in the Washington, D.C., area and was an expert witness for a lawsuit that in 2008 stopped the federal government from forcibly administering antipsychotic drugs to deportees.
 

“You don’t need to administer these kinds of drugs unless someone is plucking out their eyeball or some such. The facility should not use these drugs to control behavior. That’s not what antipsychotics should be used for. That’s like the old Soviet Union used to do.”
 

The records were filed in connection with an ongoing class action status lawsuit alleging poor treatment of  immigrant children in U.S. custody. An attorney representing the children said youth separated from their parents often become depressed, angry, anxious and, sometimes, unruly and that, in turn, encourages prescription of inappropriate medication.
 

One child was prescribed 10 different shots and pills, including the antipsychotic drugs Latuda, Geodon and Olanzapine, the Parkinson’s medication Benztropine, the seizure medications Clonazepam and Divalproex, the nerve pain medication and antidepressant Duloxetine, and the cognition enhancer Guanfacine.
 

Dosage recommendations at Shiloh gave orderlies what Mills called an unusually wide berth to determine how much medicine to give the children.

Just now, tshile said:

 

You're probably right.

 

I really wish I wasn't.

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

We should have just given him 90 mil/year for his wall and been done with it

 

You do know that once he see's that this bull**** is a viable strategy to both drum up his base and get what he wants, that he will continue to use it over and over again right?

This is only their most recent escalation, they have plenty more up their sleeve.

That's how abusive people operate.

3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

They are committing misdemeanors or seeking asylum. They still have no legal right to be in the United States, correct?

 

Are you saying we should ignore that?

 

I agree that they shouldn’t be caged in tents, but I’m not really seeing an option c here. do you just send the kid and the adult back across the border? Or should we just let everyone who crosses the border come and go as they please? If we do that, what sort of responsibility do we have to make sure they aren’t victimized here, the way so many our our own homeless and poor are? 

 

I think you are ignoring the alternative risks. Human trafficking can result much worse environments for these kids and their families than being separated from parents who can’t care for them. 

 

Trump framed this as a race issue because he wanted the white working class vote, now everyone sees this as a race issue. Keep the brown rapists/murderers people out vs stop the racism and the neonazism.

 

I think the issue just a wee more complex than that.

Instead of this zero tolerance bull**** we can stop overloading the system. We can properly equip immigration courts, HHS, and ancillary support staff to handle the normalized flow of asylum seekers and other immigrants so we can properly screen and process them. 

You have  a staff capable of evaluating children for trauma and vetting their guardians to eliminate the chance of them being human traffickers or some other danger. 

Those who aren’t eligible for asylum are held in centers that are NOT jails and returned as a family back to their country of origin. We can build upon the existing infrastructure HHS already has in place. 

Those who are granted asylum and unaccompanied minors can continue on with the process of integrating into the US with a support structure in place. 

Its regulated and tracked the whole way through while while still maintaining levels of human decency and holding to our inherent values as a country, which is expressed by our Statue of Liberty. 

And most of the above is included in the democratic bill that maybe only one gop senator has voiced support for. 

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Where did you see that?

 

the internet?

 

twitter?

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

These people entered the country illegally... I certainly don’t like seeing this happen, but are we supposed to pretend like they are here legally?

No, you don’t have to pretend. Most of them are people fleeing horrible conditions who are committing misdemeanors at worst or seeking amnesty at best. 

That shouldnt be enough of a disqualifier to lend them some human decency and keep their children from being separated and put in cages, don’t you think?

What are you even trying to imply with your comment?

We still haven’t gotten any visual evidence of the state of the girls and toddlers. I saw something where the media requested photos and were given pictures from a previous year. The fact that they are doing something like that worries the **** out of me. 

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

I'd like to pose these ?s again.

 

What SHOULD we be doing with the 2000 families that crossed the border illegally, whos kids are now detained.

 

What SHOULD we do with the future illegal immigrant families?

 

What SHOULD we do with the 10k plus solo children that are coming across?

First of all, again the majority of these people are first-time migrants who are being charged with a misdemeanor prima facie, due to this no tolerance bull****. This is the kind of "illegal" we are talking about.

You have around 2000 families a month, that need to be processed. They can be held in temporary centers that will be upgraded from the "big lots" centers we see like out in Brownsville, Texas via more funding and manpower to HHS. Those who have been processed and verified as a potential asylum seeker can be released on bond to live and work in the US, just like we've been doing. I don't personally have a problem with letting people out on bond for a misdemeanor charge.

We will make every effort to keep families together in accordance with the Safe Families Act. We will make sure DHS has training for trauma recognition and the evaluation of guardian capability for minors, so they can properly identify those children who may be held by traffickers. We will not allow the imprisonment of children as a "deterrence" for immigration.  We will create a comprehensive process for the reunification of separated families, so no child is made an orphan via the deportation of their family members, while not having any means to find or contact the rest of their family.

"Obama tried to create an alternative to “catch and release” with a refu­gee program that granted legal residence to minors who had a parent in the country legally. But Trump canceled that program last year." Maybe we should look into bringing that back? 

For the future, we need to invest and overhaul the immigration courts. They're an express lane travesty of judicial incompetency. Not only do we need more judges, but we need more oversight. Trump's dumbass self put all this money and manpower into expanding ICE, while turning the immigration courts into nothing more than a deportation machine. He's created an even worse overload, not only with his zero tolerance, but the moves he made earlier like prosecuting all cases, not just criminal and national security cases and not allowing judges to close cases that clearly warrant it.

"Simply put, the rapid growth and reach of immigration enforcement has outpaced the finite resources of the court system, and judges are being stripped of independence at the same time that the administration is putting anyone it can get its hands on into deportation proceedings, and government lawyers have been commanded to no longer be merciful in cases that can and should be closed.
 

The court’s focus must be on each individual’s right to a full and fair hearing. The new quotas will only create more litigation and further pressure beleaguered immigration judges, while completely ignoring the key role that the enforcement arm has in alleviating swollen dockets. EOIR can take steps improving efficiency and guaranteeing due process, such as fast-tracking an electronic filing system, preserving smart docket control practices like administrative closure, and promoting the right to legal representation. Ultimately, these strong-arm tactics used against the immigration courts is a reminder that EOIR is an arm of the Department of Justice rather than part of the judicial branch. Congress must establish an independent immigration court system. We have one for tax law. We have one for bankruptcy. Aren’t the stakes higher here?"

http://fortune.com/2018/04/11/immigration-court-judge-quotas/