Updated roster shows work in the weightroom

[GURU]

Updated roster at redskins.com: http://redskins.com/roster.asp

This is sort of an extension of the defensive line contraversy. There are some interesting numbers, which I assume have been updated from recent workouts, and not last year's (including college weights) numbers.

Derrick Ham is up to 270lbs, which puts him solidly in the average weight range of NFL defensive ends. You'll rarely see the better pass rushing ends over 280lbs, anyway.

Bruce Smith has slimmed down to 261lbs. Actually, he said he was in the 265lbs range LAST training camp, but was still listed at 278lbs. Smith has always been strong and used leverage well, and I think older players are probably better served playing at a lighter weight, anyway.

Marco Coleman is listed at 270lbs, but he was never a liability against the run at 267lbs, anyway.

Del Cowsette has bulked up to 288lbs. I thought this was probably the case and was waiting for some confirmation. I liked the intangibles I saw from Cowsette during last preseason. He still has to prove he can do it against frontline NFL starters, but with some added weight and strength, I think he is headed in the right direction.

A forgotten man, Jerry DeLoach is a healthy(?) 315lbs. Last season, he was much like this year's free agent safety Ifeanyi Ohalete, who was a fairly highly rated player going into his senior college season, but spent most of it injured and was undrafted. He displayed great natural strength during drills last year in training camp, but looked raw during game situations. After a year of learning the NFL ropes, he could at least keep offensive linemen off the linebackers. If he learns to locate the ball better, he could surprise.

Rookie free agent DE Terry Bryant is 287lbs. I don't want to speculate about his ability because he is an undrafted free agent. At that weight, though, he could be a jumbo-sized run stuffing DE eventually. It wouldn't be the first time such an unheralded player has risen through the ranks.

Now, I'm taken a bit of an optimistic track. I will readily admit that.

And I'm going to pick on Bulldog, a bit, too, because he has been most vocal about the DL situation. I totally respect Bulldog's knowledge and enjoy his posts, but I'm going to call him out on the weight thing. (In good fun, of course)

I hate, hate, HATE, the arguments about players based on their weight. Especially when the numbers are based on old, and often unreliable, listed weights.

If you want to harp on the DL situation because of lack of experience, that's one thing. I agree. This DL personnel is largely unproven, which is plenty of reason for concern. But the whole weight thing, that they're too light, is bogus.

[ by GURU on July 24, 2001.]

[All In]

I also noticed that Kenard Lang is up to 281 lbs. I think early in the offseason they were saying that they would like to have him around 285. He should still have quickness and I hope he has more strength. When it's a passing situation he seems to play well.

Can't wait to see what we have.

[Terry]

I see that Lang is at 281 lbs.

You're calling out Bulldog, and I don't want to jump into that. But I did grab the weights of all the interior offensive linemen on our club:

Brandt 309

Campbell 300

Coleman 332

Fischer 303

Fletcher 350

Kalitch 297

Moore 318

Raymer 300

Schwabb 301

That averages out to 312 per man, and I'll extrapolate that to the rest of the league.

So Cowsette is giving up an average of 24 lbs against the average interior lineman, and Lang is giving up 31 lbs.

I think that with technique and leverage, all else being equal, then perhaps those differences might not be so bad. My concern would be over the length of a game, and the duration of an entire season, that the difference would start to tell.

It may be merely a matter of setting up an effective rotation and keeping the guys fresh, but I don't think that the weight difference can be readily dismissed.

[JackC]

So do you think we will be 12-4 or 13-3?

[bulldog]

the other thing to remember here is that these are offseason weights. Remember last season when Chris Samuels was 325 in camp and yet was down to 297 at the end of the year by his own admission?

Some of the changes in weight are substantial. Cowsette from 271 to 288 is impressive, if it is not all in his belly, of course. The question is how much stronger is he and has he lost any quickness as a result?

Marco is about where he was listed, 267 to 270. Lang is up 4 pounds from 277 to 281. Those changes don't appear significant to me.

Bruce is down to 265 or so. His game was as mentioned speed and leverage so that is a number that may not be that important to track.

Wilkinson is way over the 315 he was listed at last season. Indications are he showed up to minicamp close to 330.

That may be a problem for him with Marty.

Monds was 330 at draft time and if anything I hope he has shed some weight. All he has to do is look at Tre Johnson to see what too much weight does to your knees and ankles. The key for him is showing adequate conditioning and stamina, the ability to sustain his effort for 30 or 40 plays a game.

Ham is up from 257 to 270? This may be the most important raw number because Ham is perhaps closer to playing than some of these other guys at the moment. If no veterans are signed Derrick WILL get on the field to play in 2001. Odds are that Bruce and Marco won't both play 16 games again. Ham has shown some pass rush ability according to the team but that has been in practice and before that in NFL Europe. I won't be comfortable until I see him in the preseason games against live NFL competition.

Overall good news. Terry Bryant was a guy I had mentioned in a previous post as a player to watch out for in camp because he had adequate size and came from a good program at Clemson where he showed run skills.

[KirkNC]

I think calling our line inexpericenced is a bot out of whack(and I am not pickin on you GURU because I hear everyone say it but Bruce has what 16 years, Coleman has how many 10(?)Big Dan going on 7/8, Lang 4.

That is a very experienced line.

So often we on these boards tend to freak out on the boards about needing to have a proven player in every spot or we have a HUGE hole that will be devastating to our teams success. Yet we would always Norv bash ( about all we could rely on) for never playing any young guys, instead getting some over the hill reject from the waste heap of another team.

I for one am hopeful we stick with what we have at DE/DT/FS

and give the guys we have a chance to shine.

As I have posted before, I think we could see DeLaoch end up being a signifigant contributor this year. If not what about Monds or Cowslette? Actually I am hopeful that we see enough there that we end up seeing two of those guys rotating for the majority of snaps at DT(all of the rushing downs) whichfrees up Lang to move through the line DE on running and DT on passing. Ham also getting a couple of opportunities like a Kalu of last year.

Thats a nice rotation of veterans and youth. I will take it and be happy. We will be better off this year and much better off next year by taking this route.

Also unless Deion is willing to part with some of that money he loves so much, I think we should keep him on the roster this year. We can not if we are going to sign a DT a FS and a RB as well as our picks. Of we sign our picks and go play the games with our current roster we keep Deion which helps us this year and next.

[Zen-like Todd]

Of course, weight can be a useful thing. It's not the only thing.

97 Glover, La'Roi DT 6-2 285

That was playing next to a big fat guy who is somewhat similar to (although playing better than) Big Daddy.

[bulldog]

you know, there are exceptions to every rule. There are the Charles Haleys out there that can play defensive end in the NFL at 245 or 250.

Everyone else that has tried it has gotten run into the ground.

Mark Stepnoski is only 270 at center. That puts him 30 pounds under the average weight for a center in the NFL today. Yet he has been a consistent performer and made the pro bowl numerous times in his career.

My point in bringing up these players is, you can try and find the needle in the haystack, ie the player that bucks all the odds and succeeds being undersized, understrength or slow afoot. But wouldn't it be more prudent and a much better risk/reward to instead focus your efforts on developing players that have the physical skills to compete from the get go?

All of the players outside of Smith, Coleman and Wilkinson are unknowns.

Lang is playing a position that is new to him. Yes he played inside on passing downs in 2000 but that is not the same as facing a power running game inside on first and second downs and we all know that. He himself has voiced concerns regarding the switch from end.

Cowsette was on the practice squad, signed away by the Colts, a team in dire need of defensive linemen and then waived. Once again, he is back here. How much can we expect from this player?

DeLoach failed to make the active roster last year and was out of football for the entire season as I remember. He showed some ability as a JUNIOR in college, three years ago. When was the last time Jerry was on the field for a season's worth of games, 1998?

My point is not to denigrate these players necessarily, only to point out that the odds are long that three years from now ANY of these players will be starters or significant contributors here in Washington. Sometimes you get a sleeper with a #6 pick or rookie free agent.

That is the dream and occasionally you throw double sevens and end up with a find as the Broncos did with Terrell Davis or Mike Anderson.

But the reality is you go through 30 or 40 other players in like situations before you find ONE that can help you.

[Monkey]

If our offense clicks like its supposed to, we won't face

too many power running attacks. Power run teams seem to

have a positive increase in YPA when they get more

attempts, so what we have to do is dictate what our

opponents can call.

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There are two kinds of opinions, mine and the wrong one!

[Ignatius J.]

It appears that monkey is silently protesting Aces posting style, what with the double spacing and short lines and all.

-DB

[GURU]

Ah, nail on the head. I think what we're talking about are expectations. Many of us aren't sure about what we have, and rightly so. It seems that most, if not all of our depth along the DL are examples of the "needle in the haystack" variety.

I think we'll find out, this season, just how good Marty's coaching staff is at teaching football. I think Lang, Monds, Cowsette, DeLoach, and Ham (and maybe Bryant) all seem to have enough talent to make contributions on the NFL level. At least Marty thinks so. He's taking a caculated risk by going with what he's got, and showing supreme confidence in his teaching ability. (Although much of it has been dictated by the salary cap) He hasn't expressed the same desparateness that many of us feel. Then again, he didn't share the awful experience of the '96 and '97 seaons which are etched in all Skins fans brains, however.

Obviously, adding a player like Cortez Kennedy or Chidi Ahanatou would be an upgrade because both are talented and known quantities. I think the Skin's salary cap situation makes signing either of those two prohibitive, however. Both, most likely, will command a starter's salary, albeit not a star's salary.

Based on Marty's moves and what he's expressed in interviews, he seems to clearly think that the kids who are here have some upside and just need good coaching. My feeling (hope?) is that a couple from this fairly long list will surprise and be much better than what is expected.

While I expect this year's squad to play better as a team, I'm not expecting a Super Bowl contender. (It would be a nice surprise, though) So I'd just as soon see what the kids have, rather than add more aging or mediocre veterans.

[NavyDave]

Big Fatty won't be that way at the end of pre season. Bank on it.

If Monds does slim down which is possible and can have the fire lit under his sizable rump there may not be a need to

To size Cortez Kennedy wo probaby wants to play in the AFC.

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Dave

[indyskinsfan]

Bulldog wrote:

There are the Charles Haleys out there that can play defensive end in the NFL at 245 or 250.

I do see he has a Hall of Fame career, but he also would love to have his "disk" properly inserted back into his back also.

Other than that he is an exception.

[NavyDave]

There were questions about a player that was drafted in he 7th round and couldn't stick on a team's roster as well as a guy who was out of football for lil over a year because of injuries.

What happened to these two unknowns? They went on to form an explosive set of offensive weapons for the Jaguars.

K McCardell and J Smith.

So while our guys are unknon an untested, why not ive them a chance to see what they can do?

It is better than signing an aging player who is about the money known as Cortez K whose knees I wonder about

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Dave

[GURU]

Well, Jimmy Smith wasn't an unknown. He was a second round pick who stuggled with injuries his first few seasons.

But there are PLENTY of examples of perennial Pro Bowl defensive linemen who were low round picks or rookie free agents.

Richard Dent. John Randle. Michael McCrary. Michael Sinclair. Chiefs DE Eric Hicks, who appears to be on his way to being one of the better DEs in the league after tallying 14 sacks last season, was a rookie free agent.

But it's like Bulldog said -- like trying to find a needle in a haystack. The thing is, the really good coaches are good at finding and developing these types. One of the things I missed most about the Gibbs era was finding out who the next training camp phenom was. And there was at least one or two EVERY year. They didn't all make it. But some did and became cogs on winning teams. That's what I hated about training camps with Norv. He looked at rookie free agents as fodder, and nothing more. They never had a realistic chance. Turner was looking for bodies while good coaches are looking for unpolished gems.

The unknown is kinda scary. But remember Joe Gibbs' first defensive line? Dave Butz and who else? A former offensive lineman (Daryl Grant) A light in the rear special teamer. (Dexter Manley). I'm sure some of us could think of the other guys, but it might take some effort.

I think it's about time to start developing some young guys. I'm not sure adding mediocre retreads (experienced retreads, of course) is the answer.

[bulldog]

let me make clear that at NO time have I endorsed signing Cortez Kennedy. As far as I am concerned this player is done in the NFL. He may hang around for another couple of years on name and reputation but his desire is gone.

He is looking for a big paycheck from a sucker team like the one Deion got last year and he expects that offer to come from a contender that loses a lineman in preseason to injury.

In essence he is playing the same waiting game that Trent Dilfer is.

[indyskinsfan]

Agreed on that GURU.

I see the RB position having the hidden "glow" this time and maybe TE. It is uncanny how it happens and is sooooo unpreditable. My guess may be the joke of the year or have people asking me why I didn't take the odds to Vegas.

I like the way the stories come up around the NFL or even in others, that a person, absolutely NOBODY thought would make it that big or even make a squad, somehow, someway astounds us and leaves us livid. Suddenly after the game or series or boxing match, kids can be seen emmulating them, fresh from seeing it all on tv.

"The handoff is to Timmy Smith, and he's turning the corner, and.....LOOKOUT... HE's Gone! "That guy looked like he was fired from a canon, Mr. Lampley!!!!

[NavyDave]

I agree.

No more Aging, past their prime, Name players out for only the Benjamins

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Dave