Yomar Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Draft Dish: Dorsey struggles at Shrine Game practice January 8, 2003 SAN FRANCISCO -- The setup for the week of practice leading up to the East West Shrine Game might be the most scout-friendly ever this year. Outside of one trip to City College of San Francisco, each practice is being held at Pacific Bell Park in downtown San Francisco where the game will be played. Not only is it a better environment for the players and their families, but it makes the job of coaches and scouts a lot easier because Pac-Bell is within walking distance of the Hyatt Regency, where the players and NFL personnel are staying. Events began on Saturday for the game, but in terms of scouting potential NFL prospects, there are three critical days of practice -- Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Each team practices separately, with the East team, coached by Tyrone Willingham and the Notre Dame staff, typically practicing in the morning followed by the West team, coached by Pat Hill and the Fresno State staff. As usual, there were plenty of top players expected to play that chose not to attend. Headlining the group of no-shows were Washington State QB Jason Gesser, USC QB Carson Palmer, Iowa QB Brad Banks, Virginia wide receiver Billy McMullen and Maryland linebacker E.J. Henderson. There are still a handful of potential first-day prospects on hand, though, including Miami QB Ken Dorsey, Michigan wide receiver Ronald Bellamy and Ohio State safety Michael Doss on the East squad and Missouri wide receiver Justin Gage, Oregon State cornerback Dennis Weathersby, Fresno State defensive end Nick Burley, Oregon State defensive tackle Eric Manning and Colorado defensive end Tyler Brayton on the West roster. The following is a breakdown of the players that stood out -- positively and negatively -- from each practice on Tuesday. We evaluated quarterbacks, wide receivers, tight ends, safeties and cornerbacks. On Wednesday we will evaluate offensive and defensive linemen. Running backs, fullbacks, linebackers and specialists will be evaluated on Thursday. East Team None of the three East quarterbacks stood out on Tuesday. If you didn't know Dorsey's record in college you would rule him out as a prospect in a venue like this. He's by far the skinniest of the six quarterbacks in the game and he really struggles to make a lot of throws that NFL quarterbacks need to make, especially the deep out route. Boston College QB Brian St. Pierre is what he is -- an average all-around talent. He has average size, average arm strength, average accuracy and average mobility. He doesn't do much that stands out either good or bad, which is why he's a mid-round prospect. Late addition Curt Anes from Division II champion Grand Valley State might have had the best arm and throwing day of the three East quarterbacks. He has good zip on the ball and fit some throws into some tight spots. He doesn't have great size and the fact that he played at the D-II level doesn't help, but he's a guy we're going to keep close tabs on this week. One of the players that stuck out the most as a surprise was Harvard's Carl Morris. A 6-3, 200-pound receiver, Morris showed a lot of upside today in practice, including good quickness, soft hands and the ability to catch the ball in traffic. What's so encouraging about Morris as a developmental prospect is the fact that most of his weaknesses -- sloppy routes, trouble breaking the press, and wasted motion after the catch -- are coachable. Illinois' Walter Young and Michigan's Bellamy were two of the other standouts at receiver. Mississippi State tight end Donald Lee looked awkward running routes and really struggled to catch the ball without it getting into his body or without him juggling it first. North Carolina's Zach Hilton is a much smoother athlete with much softer hands, but while he's listed at 276 pounds, he looks lanky and really needs to add some lower body strength. Hilton is certainly a tight end we would draft, however, as a developmental guy for the future because of how smooth he is for 6-7. The East has some impressive talent in its secondary, including national champion Ohio State's starting safety tandem of Doss and Donnie Nickey, Pittsburgh cornerback Torrie Cox, Virginia Tech cornerback Ronyell Whitaker and Notre Dame safety Gerome Sapp. Doss is a hard-hitting, playmaking safety, but matching up one-on-one in drills in a practice situation like this does not help his value. He struggled on Tuesday during press coverage drills and he frequently got beat on one-on-one matchups against slot receivers. Cox and Whitaker were the smoothest, most fluid of the East's cover corners. Cox has adequate size, is confident and does a great job of keeping things in front of him and breaking on the short routes. He also will return punts and kicks in this game. Whittaker is shorter, but he is well-built and tough. He has terrific instincts and is not afraid of challenging a receiver for the ball in the air. Both Cox and Whitaker improved their stock. West Team The West team clearly got the short end of the stick when it came to quarterbacks, but Arizona QB Jason Johnson is taking advantage of his opportunity. Johnson might have been the most impressive passer of the day. He has adequate size, a smooth delivery and he was extremely accurate. Johnson really shows confidence in his reads and patience in the pocket. He doesn't have a riffle for an arm and, as a right-handed quarterback, he struggled throwing the out route to the left side, but Johnson opened a lot of eyes of NFL scouts and coaches that hadn't considered him prior to Tuesday's practice. Portland State's Juston Wood is a sleeper that also played well in Tuesday's practice. He moves around well, does a nice job of throwing on the run and he has good zip and accuracy on sideline throws. Outside of the level of play in college, the biggest concern with Wood is his size. Wood is just 6-1, 205 pounds. On a negative note, UNLV's Jason Thomas really is showing why he was unable to get the job done the last two seasons. He moves around well and has good zip on the ball, but he almost reminds us of Shaquille O'Neal shooting a foul shot at times; his hands look too big for the ball, he aims his throws and he has almost no consistency in terms of his release. The West may not have the better group of quarterbacks, but they clearly have the better group of receivers and Gage might be the best of the group. He's tall, smooth and he consistently showed the ability to catch the ball away from his body and over his shoulder down the sideline. He could emerge as a second-round receiver before it's all over. Nevada's Nate Burleson has better than average size, has solid hands and is tough. He doesn't have elite speed, though, which is why he's a late first-day, or early second-day receiver. San Diego State's J.R. Tolver, USC's Kareem Kelly and Oregon's Keenan Howry make up the rest of this strong group. The West has two intriguing tight end prospects, but neither did anything to stand out Tuesday. Spencer Nead from BYU has a good frame and soft hands, but he doesn't break or cut well running routes. Washington's Kevin Ware moves well and can get downfield, but he's on the short side and showed inconsistent hands. The West's defensive backs are strong at cornerback, but average at safety. Colorado's Donald Strickland is emerging as a solid cover corner. He has overcome some injuries in his career, finished with a strong performance in the Alamo Bowl, and looked extremely smooth and confident in drills on Tuesday. He has some trouble against bigger receivers, but he has terrific instincts, body control and ball skills. We like him a lot as a slot cover corner in the NFL and he eventually could develop into a fine starter if he stays healthy. Air Force's Wes Crawley was another cornerback that stood out Tuesday. He is big and physical and showed a nice combination of instincts and initial burst when he picked off a Thomas pass in the flats. UCLA's Ricky Manning Jr. and Oregon State's Weathersby are two other big cornerbacks that showed some flashes on Tuesday. Boise State's Quintin Mikell and Houston's Hanik Milligan both struggled at safety. Mikell is short, squatty and has trouble changing directions in coverage, while Milligan is tall, lanky and has trouble coming up and lowering his shoulder in run support. Neither mid-round safety prospect helped themselves much. The War Room, a team of football scouts headed by Gary Horton, analyzes NFL and college players, coaches and teams exclusively for The Sporting News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 yes, i've been saying this all season Some people on here think we should draft him... that would be moronic Why would we want a qb with a weaker arm that Wuerffels? This dude is an ok college qb.... surrounded by great position players In big games he was good for 2-3 ints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montilar Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 There are weaker arms than Werfel? Gawd..........maybe I should of tried to be a QB. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBMGreatOne Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dorsey is smart, but just has no physical tools. Compound this with a sidearm delivery and you have a shaky prospect at best. He seems fairly accurate, but weak armed. I was impressed with his leadership skills, but he doesn't have the upside to be a serious consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted January 10, 2003 Author Share Posted January 10, 2003 I still like Dorsey and would be happy if the team took him late, I just like his game, and I think he can get the job done, but clearly his value has taken a serious hit lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golgo-13 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dorsey will do nothing in the pros. To be honest, I think that even HE knows that. Walking off the field in Phoenix last week may have been his last hurrah as a "top-flight" football player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty dread Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dorsey is not going to do much as a pro. He's yet another successful college QB with not enough physical tools to make it work on the NFL level. Yes he's smart and is a good leader, but he doesn't have the arm strength to be a NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dorsey reminds me of a kid that I saw play every weekend when I was at WVU. Even the same build almost. What Dorsey did have was a lot better cast to play with. By the way, that kid won 6 games last year for the Rams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 :shootinth I, for one, think Dorsey is gonna be a decent QB. No, he doesn't have a cannon arm, but I think it will prove to be adequate. He is a smart football player who will not lose the game for a team with bad passes or by missing receivers. I think he would make a great addition to the Dolphins in the fourth or fifth round. Hell, if Jay Fiedler can start in the pro's, why not Dorsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraftNik Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 You're forgetting, though, that Marc Bulger has the tools that Dorsey lacks. I remember either Kurt Warner or Mike Martz saying Bulger has the strongest arm of their quarterbacks, and he obviously is very accurate. So the comparison isn't really valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Actually it is valid - because the knock on Bulger by the scouts was his lack of arm strength and his decision making skills. Thats why he wasnt a top round pick - more of a "project" QB that the Saints (I think it was them) took a flyer on in the 6th round. I watched the kid play for 3 years - Bulger had an average arm in college. Obviously Bulger is a lot like Brady and Griese, they came into their own when they made it to the Pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraftNik Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 hmm, what did the rams get for him? Just out of curiosity. And thanks for the insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GURU Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Dorsey is another Steve Walsh, at best. Walsh, too, QBed a national championship team, but just didn't have the physical tools. Unlike Walsh or Danny Wuerffel, Dorsey doesn't look good under pressure, even at the college level. See this year's Fiesta Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by The Evil Genius Obviously Bulger is a lot like Brady and Griese, they came into their own when they made it to the Pros. Because I'm sure that you're not arguing that every average-armed college QB will "come into their own" in the NFL, what makes you think Dorsey will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 :shootinth Gonna have to stick by my statement. Plenty of QB's have made it without throwing like Marino or Elway. Dorsey has good accuracy, or perhaps the guys he threw to were so much better than he that he justed heaved the ball down field and they always happened to get there making it look like a good throw..... And these tools, besides being able to throw the ball 60 on a rope, how does one tell if the posseses them? And if you are so concerned about a QB being able to throw under pressure (Fiesta Bowl) how come we Skins fans aren't scared ****less about Ramsey being our QB? Does anybody remember what happened against New Orleans??????? And how does any argument concerning hard-to-define-tools lose validity? We are talking about prospects and potential. Could anyone picture Dorsey having the style of say, Brad Johnson...? He wins ball games by being smart and accurate. And having a good defense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBMGreatOne Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 BJ at least has somewhat ortodox mechanics, which Dorsy could develop I suppose, but right now Dorsey's passes look weak and don't get high enough. He has to do some serious work on his mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by AJWatson3 :shootinth Gonna have to stick by my statement. Plenty of QB's have made it without throwing like Marino or Elway. Dorsey has good accuracy, or perhaps the guys he threw to were so much better than he that he justed heaved the ball down field and they always happened to get there making it look like a good throw..... And these tools, besides being able to throw the ball 60 on a rope, how does one tell if the posseses them? And if you are so concerned about a QB being able to throw under pressure (Fiesta Bowl) how come we Skins fans aren't scared ****less about Ramsey being our QB? Does anybody remember what happened against New Orleans??????? And how does any argument concerning hard-to-define-tools lose validity? We are talking about prospects and potential. Could anyone picture Dorsey having the style of say, Brad Johnson...? He wins ball games by being smart and accurate. And having a good defense.... Brad Johnson wins when he's HB's can catch. Its that simple. His weaker arm won't allow for constant deep passes so he has to pick and choose his places or he'd be winging them downfield like Favre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 :shootinth I played against both Aaron Brooks and Mike Vick in HS and both were not considered major prospects coming out of school. Vick obviously developed better than his cousin and became a number one pick, leading his team to the college championship game. Brooks on the other hand was an erratic QB at best while at UVA. I was shocked to find out he made a pro roster, and look at him now. He got with the right coach (in GB) and got his mechanics fixed and he is a good QB with a fat contract. While it cannot be argued that Brooks has the arm, he didn't have any of the other "tools" coming out of college, yet he succeeded quite well and is still improving.... While Dorsey will not be a third round QB I think he has enough talent and intellect to make it in the NFL.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by AJWatson3 While Dorsey will not be a third round QB I think he has enough talent and intellect to make it in the NFL.... Again, I fail to see any distinction between Dorsey and Wuerffel at this stage of their careers. And I don't see how you can possibly compare Dorsey to Brooks or Vick based upon their respective athleticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBMGreatOne Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I understand that there's no reason to completely write the guy off, but I don't think there's any reason to consider using a draft choice on him. If he gets his mechanics together and can be effective at this level, more power to him. Doesn't matter though, because we're not drafting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted January 10, 2003 Author Share Posted January 10, 2003 ROUND AND ROUND... some people have watched Dorsey play and think he can make it in the NFL, some people don't, I think he can. Whats the big deal, no one will know until he gets a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 :shootinth And ROUND Well put Nomar. Trust me fellas, I don't want to draft him-- or any other QB for that matter. We have found our solution and he is called Ramsey the Great, conquerer of the Hitites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by redman Because I'm sure that you're not arguing that every average-armed college QB will "come into their own" in the NFL, what makes you think Dorsey will? 1. The infamous intangibles. Dorsey,I think, has them. Put most QB's on the Hurricanes team and they still win games. It takes something else though to go 38-2 as a college QB. 2. The real kicker to me will be if he's drafted by the right team. One that wont need him to come in for the first few years so that he can learn a system and work on his game. Just a hunch - as always he may not pan out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Thanks ALWatson, but I didn't really say anything, I just want people to think of the children. btw, why do you start every post shooting yourself in the head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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