bulldog Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 After the 4-32 finish to the 2002 season, is it possible that Peter Angelos has finally decided the pain level is high enough to cry uncle as Jerry Jones did? In addition to the poor finish, Angelos has had to digest the comments of Bud Selig and others such as the Governor of Maryland who have come out in support of a team in the metro DC area. That means paring payroll and fielding a sub.500 team to look vulnerable to MLB (and forestall a DC team) isn’t going to serve any larger purpose anymore. It is just bad baseball for its own sake. Enter Mike Flanagan and Jim Beattie. No, this wasn’t equivalent to the hiring of Bill Parcells by Jones, who is a proven winner in the job he was hired to do. But Beattie has personnel experience on the major league level and Flanagan is an independent enough personality that the kind of meddling we have seen in recent seasons is not likely to repeat itself in 2003. Syd Thrift, 73, was finally replaced after several seasons of mediocre free agent signings and the fact the ballclub still has not produced an all-star caliber player from its farm system since Cal Ripken Jr (Mussina and Olson were college draft picks). Some progress, however, was made in developing pitching depth at the A and AA levels. And, players hovering at the major league level the past couple of years such as Jason Johnson and Sidney Ponson appear to be trade bait. The most optimistic thought about the ballclub is the measured approach the front office is taking to the free agent market. Flanagan has indicated the team WILL spend money to upgrade the team, but will not set the market for new mega-deals in a year when salaries have come down even for star players. Ivan Rodriguez was offered a contract for around $6 million a year which was turned down by his agent. So the team moved on. Flanagan (knowing the reluctance of GMs around the league to spend) commented that with the market being what it is, perhaps Rodriguez and his agent will be back at some point to negotiate further. In their first two moves the club addressed some glaring needs for reasonable dollars. Cruz is a shorstop who is capable defensively and has shown that he can drive in some runs as well. The team needed to turn the page with Mike Bordick, who at 37, had seen his numbers at the plate drop precipitously the past 2 or 3 seasons. Pitcher Omar Daal, the other acquisition is truly a rare bird in Baltimore, a left-handed starter capable of 175-200 innings. The team hasn’t had a left-handed starter in several years. Left handers coming off a winning campaign and sporting an ERA in the mid 3.5’s usually get a lot more in the marketplace than Daal did this time around. These players aren’t going turn the Orioles from a second-tier team to a contender by themselves, but they are solid moves to address needs with players that are still on the productive side of their careers. We won’t be seeing any more David Segui or Chris Singleton type signings and perhaps that is as good a start as one can expect to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Its going to be a long tough road to recovery and if D.C. gets a team for the 2004 season, they might be better than B-more in 06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 DC is getting hosed. yeah, the Expos will end up here in 2004, but that will be AFTER they have the fire sale to get rid of all their good players and top prospects in 2003 :mad: what will be left is an expansion team in every true sense of the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 and that team will still be better than Baltimore by 06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 well, I am glad you have such faith in a front office that has yet to exist in real terms after watching sports for 30 odd years, I usually don't even trust what I can see with my eyes, bare enough something that has yet to materialize.............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Bulldog, you almost sound like an Orioles fan. I will enjoy watching the O's struggle until DC gets a team. Angelos deserves no better than humiliating defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eparadox Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I really hope that the Expos come to DC, and that they keep Vlad Gueirro on the roster, that guy is a beast, and will be for the next 12 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Its not that I have faith in the new D.C. front office. It's that I still have zero faith in the O's one. Talk about an Ownership that be forced to sell. People slam Danny for trying to win? How about Peter for trying to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by Bufford Its going to be a long tough road to recovery and if D.C. gets a team for the 2004 season, they might be better than B-more in 06. Why wait 'til 2006? The Expos were better than the O's in 2002, so why assume the O's will be better than the Expos/Senators in 2003, 2004 and 2005? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 let's hope when a team hits town that the ownership group has a better sense of kharma than to call them the 'senators'.........that name has already been tried twice.......... new team, new start, new NAME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummagumma Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Washington has an 0-2 count...they better not miss this time or they're OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by ummagumma Washington has an 0-2 count...they better not miss this time or they're OUT! We haven't had a team here since 1971. DC is a completely different area demographically than it was 30 years ago. Many of the towns that DO have major league teams today could NOT have supported a team 30 years ago. For that matter, many of these towns can't support a team right now. And the Senators didn't leave because of a lack of fan support anyway. That's a common misconception. I could go into all the reasons they left, but I don't have three hours to waste. Someone recently came up with a formula called "fans per win" or something like that. It was designed to measure how many fans baseball teams drew relevant to their won/loss record. By this measure, it was determined that the Senators were one of the best supported baseball teams in history. They just had a series of horrible owners (see Arizona Cardinals, Cincinnati Bengals) who cared nothing about winning. The orginal Senators moved to Minnesota because the owner felt there were too many black people in D.C. That's a fact. It had nothing to do with fan support. The ownership just sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pga Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I am one of those very few people who are Redskin AND Oriole fans. Not very many of us as I can tell. I think DC deserves a team and will get one...eventually. That would be great and it will have little to no impact on the O's. As for the O's front office hiring Flanny and Beattie is a step in the right direction. Syd Thrift was a big part a why free agents wouldn't come here. The agents wouldn't even listen to him talk because he was such a jackass. He would put deals on the table and then pull them back or modify them.....to the point that agents just said the hell with that guy. We had one of the best GM's in the business in Pat Gillick and one of the best coaches in Davey Johnson. Went to the playoffs 3 years in a row in the mid 90's. Then somehow it all went to hell in a hand basket. King Peter (as we call him around B-More) purged everybody from the team, Robbie Alomar and Raffy Palmeiro to name 2 of the biggest that shouldn't have left. Replacing them with bogus talent and signing Albert Belle to a record contract mostly to keep him from going to the Yankees and are STILL paying for him and he hasn't played in three years! Anyway......sorry about that rant. The O's are trying not to suck but until King Peter wants to sell or go back to using some of his asbestos money for the O's it will be hard to be much better than .500 and never make the playoffs cuz Boston and New York will always be better. I hope DC gets a team and when that happens I will think long and hard about giving up my season tickets right behind home plate @ the 'Yard and driving south for baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubisyohankovic Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 "I am one of those very few people who are Redskin AND Oriole fans. Not very many of us as I can tell." PGA - Me too. I am a lifelong fan of both teams. I think a lot of us are in the same boat. I grew up in PG County -- Bullets, Caps, Skins, Univ. of MD, and the O's..... I hope DC gets a team, but I'm an O's guy (as depressing as that has BEEN, during the Angelos era!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummagumma Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by Larry Brown #43 We haven't had a team here since 1971. DC is a completely different area demographically than it was 30 years ago. Many of the towns that DO have major league teams today could NOT have supported a team 30 years ago. For that matter, many of these can't support a team right now. And the Senators didn't leave because of a lack of fan support anyway. That's a common misconception. I could go into all the reasons they left, but I don't have three hours to waste. Someone recently came up with a formula called "fans per win" or something like that. It was designed to measure how many fans baseball teams drew relevant to their won/loss record. By this measure, it was determined that the Senators were won of the best supported baseball teams in history. They just had a series of horrible owners (see Arizona Cardinals, Cincinnati Bengals) who cared nothing about winning. The orginal Senators moved to Minnesota because the owner felt there were too many black people in D.C. That's a fact. It had nothing to do with fan support. The ownership just sucked. Yeah and if this team doesn't make it I don't ever want to hear any complaining about no baseball in DC. It'll still be the 3rd attempt any way you slice it. There are no excuses this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Originally posted by ummagumma Yeah and if this team doesn't make it I don't ever want to hear any complaining about no baseball in DC. It'll still be the 3rd attempt any way you slice it. There are no excuses this time. To compare what happened in 1971 to the present day is absurd. In 1971, Tampa didn't have a single major sports team. Now they have three. By your logic, Tampa can't support major sports because they had no teams in 1971. That makes no sense. I can guarantee you this. If we get a team here in D.C., it will be supported better than all of these current "Major League" teams: Braves (they don't even sell out their World Series games) White Sox Tigers Marlins Astros Royals Brewers Expos A's Phillies Pirates Padres Devil Rays Rangers Blue Jays That's half the league right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted January 10, 2003 Author Share Posted January 10, 2003 The Orioles were perhaps the best managed organization in baseball between 1965 and 1984, at least they were the winningest what is ironic is that what ultimately undid the O's was straying from their successful formula of developing younger players and placing dollars in the pitching staff. the arrival of Edward Bennett Williams and his attempts to mimic the Yankees in terms of spending mega-bucks was the start of the road to ruin. Angelos, like Snyder, came in a fan and wanted to restore the team to health. But he was impatient, signed enough stars to rival the Yankees payroll and didn't want to wait for Gillick and Johnson to do their jobs (98 wins in '97 wasn't cutting it for Mr. I WANT IT YESTERDAY). He alienated everyone by meddling in everything from the color of the wallpaper to the size of the gatorade cups :laugh: Gillick left and the team went south. Thrift convinced Angelos he should focus on building from within and work to develop the farm system. The only problem was that Thrift at 70 years of age no longer had the sharp eye for talent that he had when he was the architect of the Pirates fine farm system 25 years ago. Now that a team in DC is all but a forgone conclusion, Angelos has come out of his shell of 'woe is me' and now realizes he has to rebuild his team. He reached out for a guy in Flanagan that he remembered seeing on the field, winning a World Series for the club in the 1980s. He believes Flanagan and Beattie can bring back the 'old' way of doing things, ie signing value free agents that exceed expectations and developing a core of pitchers that will anchor the team. so far the moves have been small, but effective. Cruz is a better offensive player than Bordick at SS who at 37 was headed down the same slope as Brady Anderson was a few years ago with his .198 batting average. Cruz is a solid but not great fielder. Daal has been an effective player outside of one disastrous season in 2000. Last year he was 11-9 with a 3.74 era for an average ballclub. Those stats usually draw more interest around the league for lefty. Especially one that can work 200 innings. The real question will be whether Angelos can stay out of the personnel end of the business for more than a few months. To his credit, Flanagan seems to be one guy that can get through to Angelos. Angelos respects him and doesn't treat him as he does a lot of the other people that work for him. Much as Darrell Green gets through to Dan Snyder. Whatever Snyder thinks of anyone else in the front office or on the field, it is not hard to discern that #28 is one of Snyder's favorite people. Maybe that will be enough, maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pga Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 Unfortunately from what I know....and that may not be much, Flanny has been under King Peter's thumb for quite some time now. King Peter's sons still have more pull than anyone in the front office. That stinks. So I'm not so excited about the years to come from the O's but more excited about a team coming to DC. Depending on the ownership group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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