KC Joyner- Dallas safety metrics in his chat 7-5

[Riggo#44]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

playmakers in 4 spots...and even though its againt my best judgement i'll ask anyway...which 4 new playmakers do you have on the Defense and what 4 scrubs did they replace?

and i already said the skins will improve and Dallas may or maynot improve......but the Skins are going to have to REALLY improve to just be even with what Dallas did last season.

Fletcher replaced Marshall

Landry replaced Archuleta/Fox/Vincent

McIntosh replaced Holdman

Smoot replaced Wright/Rumph

You can laugh all you want, but bring your counter arugments. I dare you. But be ready to be owned. You and your worthless fan base. I am tired of your mouth.

[Riggo#44]

I didn't call you a man, I said person. As far as the quote goes, in your response you had it as quoting me, not TRPB with that.

Hm, I don't recall Wade's teams as being injury riddled. Do you have anything support the point that Wade's "softie" approach will translate to more injuries or is it just conjecture on your part?

Again, it's called reading. It's your friend. It's been documented that Parcells "forced" players to play hurt. Henry complained about it this offseason. So, Wade, being a softer coach, would have him sit. That "conjecture" came from Henry himself in one of the Dallas papers after the 1st mini-camp. (I am not going to track it down, I really don't have time)

I can't help you.

Who said I want your pathetic help?

Canty and Spears are young players that were highly regarded in the college ranks. It's a little early to say the book is closed on them after 2 years.

TheFan

Ah I see - so there is nothing to go off except wishful thinking and the new system? Gotcha. So you have nothing as usual. Have a seat.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

You compared the Dallas defnes to the Miami defense based on pass rush, did you not?

NO! I made a point that they (Miami) were good on D....despite having a piss poor secondary.........You made the comparrision that they were 5th in pass d (yds against) but only had 8 int's) my point was more about how the pressure and that they (Miami) were good despite the chitty secondary!

let me make it clear, Miami had a MUCH better pass Defense then Dallas did!

Oh I'm sorry, my bad, yes the "new defensive system." You keep mentioning the pressure from the "front four" even though in Williams defense, the pressure rarely comes from the front four alone. It comes from all angles - not unlike a 3-4 defense.

unless you hit a time machine, i have no faith in the system GW has ion place with his current personel. The body of work he has shown has gotten worse every year since the great 2004.

You bash Carter's pass rushing ability, but say the Dallas D-line will be better right?

i am not going to sit here and debate with you the difference between the skins 4-3 (D-line) and the Boys 3-4 (D-Line) Carter is a pass rusher, and he sucked......

Canty and Spears have amassed 3.5 and 2.5 sacks in their careers respectively. What could you possibly point to to suggest that they have any professional pass-rushing ability? Again, other than wishful thinking.

well thank God, its not there primary responsibility. Your looking pretty foolish Riggo...and for you thats sayin a lot!

You do know that they both line up in typically a DT spot in pass rushing downs dont you? ...Nevermind!

So if you want to continue this, bring something other than "new defensive system" and "Ken Hamlin" would you?

ok, Henry will suck again but will be healthy while playing ......Spencer and Ellis will provide 15 sacks between the two and Ware will have 300 sacks, with 30 coming vs Campbells slow arse and that over rated line you have...LOL....ok!

for those still reading, i was joking about the Henry part he will play hurt again like he has the last two seasons and will suck too........but we will not judge him til we see what KC Joyner has to say first1

[ouvan59]

Okay, I have seen enough of Joyner's metrics to determine that they are way too inconsistent and subjective to be worth the paper they are printed on particularly those involving the secondary. They don't take into account a player having close enough coverage that a QB decides to throw in another direction. It is nearly impossible to differentiate between zone and man-to-man coverage and it is absolutely impossible for him to know what defense was called and what responsibility each player was supposed to have. Let's say a CB reads the play wrong and checks up and plays short outside zone when in actuality he was supposed to follow a receiver all the way down the field. The QB sees the blown coverage and throws deep along the sideline where the nearest player is a safety whose responsibility on that play was deep middle but because he sees a guy running free breaks from that responsibility and tries to recover but doesn't make it in time. It also can't account for a LB who doesn't drop to the right depth in coverage and gives up a big catch in the seams. There have been plenty of times where I have thrown something at my TV screaming at a player that I thought got burnt only to learn later that he wasn't responsible. Do you really think Joyner checks with the team to learn who was responsible? No way. He makes a guess albeit probably an educated one. A perfect example is Santana Moss' two touchdowns against Dallas. The plays looked nearly identical but the defensive responsibility according to the Dallas coaching staff wasn't. Who does Joyner charge with being burned on those two plays, Roy Williams or Aaron Glenn?

[phatSkins27]

im not sold on KC Joyners "metrics" tehy seem to be used to prove anything that he and other like to write about regardless of the actual impact on the field. I compare to the goldne metric of the QB rating when Tom brady isnt anywhere near as good as David Carr..now which QB leads his team to victory?

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Fletcher replaced Marshall

Landry replaced Archuleta/Fox/Vincent

McIntosh replaced Holdman

Smoot replaced Wright/Rumph

You can laugh all you want, but bring your counter arugments. I dare you. But be ready to be owned. You and your worthless fan base. I am tired of your mouth.

Fletcher- CHECK

Landry- *CHECK...........in a few years, no way he is classified as a playmaker year one.....

McIntosh- :laugh: playmaker? He has to get on the field and play first, he is still a backup to me until the season starts. He may win the job, but that also speaks of how bad of a LB corp you have...Rock McIntosh is NOT a playmaker.......you have got to be kidding me!!!

Smoot......:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: i have seen some funny things before but this is great, your nickle corner is now a playmaker.........

i like how you already know i am going to laugh at you, i mean you had to feel stupid to type that as your four new "playmakers"....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

and your right, i am going to laugh...and continue to laugh at this all weekend long! thanks Riggo!

[TheFan]

Again, it's called reading. It's your friend. It's been documented that Parcells "forced" players to play hurt. Henry complained about it this offseason. So, Wade, being a softer coach, would have him sit. That "conjecture" came from Henry himself in one of the Dallas papers after the 1st mini-camp. (I am not going to track it down, I really don't have time)

Who said I want your pathetic help?

Ah I see - so there is nothing to go off except wishful thinking and the new system? Gotcha. So you have nothing as usual. Have a seat.

So explain exactly what previous seasons with BP "forcing" players to play hurt has to do with anything this season? Nada. If we use Henry as an example, lets say he sits for 3 games and then comes back healthy instead of playing hurt through the entire year. You're saying that's a bad plan? Rich.

BTW, you don't seem to want to talk about the addition of Spencer and what impact he can make. I know, 2nd in the nation with 26 1/2 tackles behind the line doesn't impress you. I think it will be interesting if they can get Spencer and Ellis in at the same time with Ellis back at end. Could be fun.

TheFan

[Riggo#44]

Fletcher- CHECK

Landry- *CHECK...........in a few years, no way he is classified as a playmaker year one.....

Yes I will - he's better then either of the Dallas safties.

McIntosh- :laugh: playmaker? He has to get on the field and play first, he is still a backup to me until the season starts. He may win the job, but that also speaks of how bad of a LB corp you have...Rock McIntosh is NOT a playmaker.......you have got to be kidding me!!!

The only reason he's not a playmaker in your homerrific eyes is b/c he has an indian on the side of his helmet. He is a much better player than Holdman was. Mark my words. He will be very good by the end of the seaosn. He is fast and physical - per Williams - and no one has gotten more praise except for Campbell. I will be happy to laugh at you in the end.

Smoot......:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: i have seen some funny things before but this is great, your nickle corner is now a playmaker.........

Here is what I was waiting for. Smoot. By your own words, he's better then Henry. At our nickle. So what does that tell you. Smoot is back to where he is comfortable. More words you will eat.

i like how you already know i am going to laugh at you, i mean you had to feel stupid to type that as your four new "playmakers"....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

and your right, i am going to laugh...and continue to laugh at this all weekend long! thanks Riggo!

Laugh now, cry later. It's cool.

[dfos81]

unless you hit a time machine, i have no faith in the system GW has ion place with his current personel. The body of work he has shown has gotten worse every year since the great 2004.

Dallas needs to hit a time machine to even WIN a playoff game, maybe 1 that takes them back to lets say LAST DECADE. :laugh:

At least our core players from that 04-05 squad are still playing and have proven to be a VERY GOOD D before. What has the players on Dallas's team proven this decade? Not much more than any team.

i am not going to sit here and debate with you the difference between the skins 4-3 (D-line) and the Boys 3-4 (D-Line) Carter is a pass rusher, and he sucked......

Carter had a down year at the START but still managed to have a CAREER high in tackles and he improved as the season went on, unlike any player besides Carpenter in Dallas. .

[Riggo#44]

So explain exactly what previous seasons with BP "forcing" players to play hurt has to do with anything this season? Nada. If we use Henry as an example, lets say he sits for 3 games and then comes back healthy instead of playing hurt through the entire year. You're saying that's a bad plan? Rich.

Again - going back to you had the #24th ranked pass D, completely "healthy" and did nothing to improve it. Now starters will miss more time, and you think that's a good thing? Rich.

BTW, you don't seem to want to talk about the addition of Spencer and what impact he can make. I know, 2nd in the nation with 26 1/2 tackles behind the line doesn't impress you. I think it will be interesting if they can get Spencer and Ellis in at the same time with Ellis back at end. Could be fun.

TheFan

What's really fun is your honest belief Wade Phillips is going to have more success then Parcells. :laugh:

[tr1]

From NFL.com...the Skins' pass defense was BETTER than the pukes' pass defense...granted, not much better, but here on ES we're willing to say that our defense sucked last year. Puke fans on ES just can't come to grips with it...so sad...

NFL Stats 2006 Regular Season

NFL · AFC · NFC

Passing Defense - Passing Yards/Game

Team G Att Att/G Cmp Pct Yds Yds/G TDs Int Sck SckYds

Oakland 16 410 25.6 245 59.8 2413 150.8 17 18 34 218

Indianapolis 16 415 25.9 266 64.1 2548 159.2 16 15 25 157

New Orleans 16 474 29.6 267 56.3 2854 178.4 26 11 38 268

Carolina 16 500 31.2 291 58.2 3000 187.5 22 14 41 265

Miami 16 497 31.1 279 56.1 3007 187.9 22 8 47 268

Baltimore 16 509 31.8 279 54.8 3011 188.2 16 28 60 418

Buffalo 16 513 32.1 324 63.2 3019 188.7 18 13 40 265

St. Louis 16 451 28.2 266 59.0 3035 189.7 21 17 34 214

Philadelphia 16 525 32.8 309 58.9 3067 191.7 17 19 40 300

Jacksonville 16 523 32.7 294 56.2 3078 192.4 12 20 35 200

Chicago 16 581 36.3 328 56.5 3116 194.8 18 24 40 272

New England 16 518 32.4 294 56.8 3203 200.2 10 22 44 281

San Diego 16 538 33.6 307 57.1 3212 200.8 19 16 61 351

New York (A) 16 532 33.2 316 59.4 3222 201.4 19 16 35 230

Cleveland 16 499 31.2 283 56.7 3242 202.6 20 18 28 137

Seattle 16 504 31.5 299 59.3 3256 203.5 23 12 41 282

Green Bay 16 515 32.2 286 55.5 3309 206.8 25 23 46 337

Kansas City 16 506 31.6 314 62.1 3334 208.4 18 15 32 190

Tampa Bay 16 493 30.8 301 61.1 3354 209.6 26 11 25 166

Pittsburgh 16 529 33.1 319 60.3 3393 212.1 21 20 39 226

Denver 16 538 33.6 327 60.8 3410 213.1 13 17 35 202

Houston 16 504 31.5 328 65.1 3444 215.2 22 11 28 191

Washington 16 486 30.4 289 59.5 3491 218.2 30 6 19 95

Dallas 16 511 31.9 301 58.9 3506 219.1 25 18 34 223

Detroit 16 511 31.9 339 66.3 3520 220.0 22 12 30 201

San Francisco 16 518 32.4 331 63.9 3571 223.2 25 14 34 246

Tennessee 16 530 33.1 335 63.2 3602 225.1 24 17 26 148

New York (N) 16 567 35.4 333 58.7 3649 228.1 21 17 32 181

Atlanta 16 515 32.2 321 62.3 3668 229.2 20 12 37 235

Arizona 16 522 32.6 321 61.5 3694 230.9 21 16 38 238

Cincinnati 16 555 34.7 349 62.9 3818 238.6 24 19 35 211

Minnesota 16 599 37.4 355 59.3 3818 238.6 15 21 30 197

[ouvan59]

you don't seem to want to talk about the addition of Spencer and what impact he can make.

Landry - *CHECK...........in a few years, no way he is classified as a playmaker year one.....

So which is it, a rookie can be a playmaker or no way a rookie can be a playmaker?

[ouvan59]

From NFL.com...the Skins' pass defense was BETTER than the pukes' pass defense...granted, not much better, but here on ES we're willing to say that our defense sucked last year. Puke fans on ES just can't come to grips with it...so sad...

ALL IS WELL!!! ALL IS WELL!!!

[Riggo#44]

So which is it, a rookie can be a playmaker or no way a rookie can be a playmaker?

It all depends on what's on the side of their helmet...

[TonyRomoProBowl]

So which is it, a rookie can be a playmaker or no way a rookie can be a playmaker?

it depensds you see...if he is a Skin, then he is a playmaker....if he is a Cowboy he is a wasted pick and just a rookie that wont have an impact!

i happen to think both will be good players, with LL being better and possibly GREAT. But neither will be a playmaker........its not like were talking about S.Merriman here

[TonyRomoProBowl]

From NFL.com...the Skins' pass defense was BETTER than the pukes' pass defense...granted, not much better, but here on ES we're willing to say that our defense sucked last year. Puke fans on ES just can't come to grips with it...so sad...

again, your wrong. They gave up fewer yards then Dallas did in the passing game, but did NOT have a better pass D. You will never give up on that no matter how wrong you are!

Sacks? INT's? TD's given up? completion %? All factors that make up the passing Defesnse, yet you just focus on the one and only thing the skins did, and that was give up .9 of a yard less the the Cowboys!

:doh:

for the 15 millionth time. The Cowboys Pass D sucked last year! How many times can i say it and others here have done the same...way to peek your butt in here with a weak (once again) post and run out....nice job TonyRomo#1

[TheFan]

Again - going back to you had the #24th ranked pass D, completely "healthy" and did nothing to improve it. Now starters will miss more time, and you think that's a good thing? Rich.

What's really fun is your honest belief Wade Phillips is going to have more success then Parcells. :laugh:

Dallas' pass defense wasn't ranked 24 all year. The last few games, after Ellis went down, teams started schredding the defense. Henry wasn't healthy, as you noted, and Ellis was out. Their healthy return, with Spencer as a bonus and Hamlin as an improvement from what they had last year says they have improved.

Your right about my honest belief that Wade Phillips is going to have more success defensively than Parcells. It IS going to be fun! The only great defense BP has ever had was in NY with Bellicheck helping out. None of his defenses have been particularly great since. It's no stretch at all to think that Wade's defenses will be better. You probably didn't think about that though.... Its okay.

TheFan

[Riggo#44]

Dallas' pass defense wasn't ranked 24 all year. The last few games, after Ellis went down, teams started schredding the defense. Henry wasn't healthy, as you noted, and Ellis was out. Their healthy return, with Spencer as a bonus and Hamlin as an improvement from what they had last year says they have improved.

Your right about my honest belief that Wade Phillips is going to have more success defensively than Parcells. It IS going to be fun! The only great defense BP has ever had was in NY with Bellicheck helping out. None of his defenses have been particularly great since. It's no stretch at all to think that Wade's defenses will be better. You probably didn't think about that though.... Its okay.

TheFan

Ah so NOW Belicheck is the reason for Parcells success? (Interesting - that's something I've been saying for a while, but was refuted time and teim again by your Crackwhore Fan Cohorts)

So now it's a retread who's on his 5th team, with an OC that has 2 years total experience, and not had much success at any of his stops is suddenly going to turn it around and have more success then a potential HOF coach who has gone deep into the playoffs everywhere he has been except Dallas?

Yeah that's not a stretch...

[ouvan59]

it depensds you see...if he is a Skin, then he is a playmaker....if he is a Cowboy he is a wasted pick and just a rookie that wont have an impact!

Do you mean except he direct evidence I presented where you said Landry isn't a playmaker and TheFan said that Spencer would be an impact player.

You are friggin too much. :doh:

[dfos81]

Ah so NOW Belicheck is the reason for Parcells success? (Interesting - that's something I've been saying for a while, but was refuted time and teim again by your Crackwhore Fan Cohorts)

So now it's a retread who's on his 5th team, with an OC that has 2 years total experience, and not had much success at any of his stops is suddenly going to turn it around and have more success then a potential HOF coach who has gone deep into the playoffs everywhere he has been except Dallas?

Yeah that's not a stretch...

I think its hilarious how when BP was coaching Dallas he was the BEST coach for them and now that he's gone he wasn't much of a coach w/o Belicheck as the coordinator

We only need to bring back that same aggressivness we had a few seasons ago on D and we will be a playoff contender. On the other side, Dallas fans need a time machine that takes them back to the 90's to be considered a playoff contender, instead of a pretender

[ouvan59]

Dallas' pass defense wasn't ranked 24 all year. The last few games, after Ellis went down, teams started schredding the defense. Henry wasn't healthy, as you noted, and Ellis was out. Their healthy return, with Spencer as a bonus and Hamlin as an improvement from what they had last year says they have improved.

So your injuries are a sign of a good defense that succumbed to circumstances while our injuries are a sign of bad personnel?

Ok, I get it now.

[TheFan]

Ah so NOW Belicheck is the reason for Parcells success? (Interesting - that's something I've been saying for a while, but was refuted time and teim again by your Crackwhore Fan Cohorts)

So now it's a retread who's on his 5th team, with an OC that has 2 years total experience, and not had much success at any of his stops is suddenly going to turn it around and have more success then a potential HOF coach who has gone deep into the playoffs everywhere he has been except Dallas?

Yeah that's not a stretch...

Actually, I just threw you the bone on Belicheck. I knew a number of skin's fans posted it so you'd bite on it. Regardless of Belicheck, BP's defenses outside of NY haven't been great. Fair, good maybe, even with Belicheck, but nothing to scream about. And by the way, I never took a position on w/wo Belicheck either way.

As far as retreads go... Funny, Belicheck was one too and that worked out okay so it's not unheard of. Throw out two of those teams he was an interim coach for, coaching less than 5 games for either. Those teams were struggling before he assumed control and he didn't have a chance turn them around.

He got his other two teams into the playoffs 3 out of 5 seasons. One of the three games involved the Music City Miracle. IMO he hasn't lost enough to say that he's another Marty. At the very least, I'd say he's proven he can get teams to the playoffs. Overall with Dallas he's walking into a better situation than he had in Denver or Buffalo.

TheFan

[TheFan]

So your injuries are a sign of a good defense that succumbed to circumstances while our injuries are a sign of bad personnel?

Ok, I get it now.

You're making the same mistake ole Riggo made. I said nothing about the Skin defense. You both are reading more into my posts than there is.

TheFan

[Riggo#44]

As far as retreads go... Funny, Belicheck was one too and that worked out okay so it's not unheard of. Throw out two of those teams he was an interim coach for, coaching less than 5 games for either. Those teams were struggling before he assumed control and he didn't have a chance turn them around.

You're right Belicheck was a "retread" - however he only coached the Browns, before finding success. So while it's not unheard of - find another similar scenario.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Do you mean except he direct evidence I presented where you said Landry isn't a playmaker and TheFan said that Spencer would be an impact player.

You are friggin too much. :doh:

are me and the fan one in the same? No.

I am telling you how i feel........