mistertim

11 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Steve Young.......end of list.

 

And he happened to luck into going to a juggernaut and got to sit for several years.

I think you're right. Young is probably the one dude who was drafted really high (though it was also the supplemental draft) and eventually lived up to his draft status somewhere else. But yeah, that was also a unique situation. He spent years backing up one of the greatest QBs to ever play and then at 30 years old got his second chance to be a franchise QB and went on to be a HoFer.

3 minutes ago, illone said:

 

Except for Jim Plunkett, Rich Gannon, Alex Smith, Trent Green, Kurt Warner, Jake Plummer, Vinny Testaverde, Kerry Collins, Geno Smith, Doug Flutie, and Im sure im missing a few. 
 

Some guys just take longer to develop. 
 

Not saying Fields will, but to say it never happens is just silly. 

I said busts who went somewhere else and suddenly became good. Gannon was a 4th rounder, Green was an 8th rounder, Warner was undrafted, Plummer was a 2nd rounder, Flutie was an 11th rounder, Geno was a 2nd rounder. Guys drafted after the 1st don't have much in the way of expectations. None of those guys were drafted as the face of the franchise.

So that leaves Plunkett, Alex Smith, and Testaverde. Plunkett is hard to really judge because it was such a different era. He never really put up much in the way of stats but did win 2 SBs (though being able to lean on Marcus Allen certainly made his job easier in SB18). 

Alex Smith is basically the textbook definition of mediocrity. He didn't go somewhere else and suddenly become a top QB. He sucked at first in SF, then managed to transition to mediocrity there and that's where he stayed for the rest of his career.

Testaverde had a couple of good years but was a career journeyman. 

I was talking about 1st round busts who went to another team and became that new team's long term franchise QB and lived up to their draft status. I said there are some who go on to be journeymen and backups. That's Smith and Testaverde.

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Historically in the nfl there's been a pretty consistent spectrum from elite runners who don't throw at an elite level to elite passers who can't run worth a damn.

 

we haven't yet gotten a quarterback  who can run like lamar jackson and throw like patrick mahomes but I'm sure hoping we drafted him this year, if that guy ever comes along he'll change the league like Michael jordan.

 

If jayden can develop into a 4 thousand yard a year passer with 35 touchdowns and 15 interceptions and only burn defenses with his legs occasionally he'll be our first franchise quarterback in 60 years and we'll be competing for superbowls. 

 

If he keeps breaking the pocket and running for a hundred yards a game because He can't beat defenses with his arm he'll either be out injured or traded to steelers 3 years from now for a 6th round pick.

I think you kinda have to pick which one you want, because you have to design your offensive system around it. If you have a guy like Lamar, you design your offense around his running. If you have a guy like Mahomes, you design your offense around his passing.

Now obviously if you have an athletic QB who can use his legs it makes plenty of sense to design some runs into the system (as in Josh Allen for example). But that's completely different than designing your entire system around a QB's running (as in Lamar).

I just really really hope they choose to focus on Jayden's passing and use his running ability as an adjunct vs the main feature. Because I agree with you, if he can become an elite passer who can keep defenses on their toes with his legs sometimes, then he could become a 10+ year franchise QB and we could be a perennial contender. If the choice is to focus on his running, I think he'll flame out like other running QBs.

Though, as I've noted in the past, my biggest concern there with Daniels isn't necessarily that we'll have a ****load of designed runs (LSU didn't) but that he statistically tends to take off so damn often when pressured and moved off his spot vs scrambling and throwing off platform. Hopefully that can be improved on.

1 hour ago, mac8887 said:

I like Fields. He put on a clinic against us last year on prime time. I know we had a bad defense, but he made it look easy. He will eventually get a chance to start again someday, somewhere. There is just to much talent for him to not get another opportunity. He might even get a shot this year if Rus doesn’t play well. But if he doesn’t learn to process the field better, he won’t succeed. 

People said the same stuff about Darnold and Trubisky.

They still sucked.

And our defense was hilariously atrocious that day, but ok...Fields looked good. So what? Even ****ty QBs sometimes have great games. Overall if you watch him enough you'll see just how bad Fields really is as an actual QB (very good running back though).

35 minutes ago, Command The 414 said:

It’s just a opinion, it’s not fact… i just personally think Fields wasn’t given a full hand, 2 HC and 3 OC in his 3 seasons. At this time of their careers I think Fields gives the Steelers the best outcome at QB.

 

We hear this about pretty much every single bust QB. "Oh he can probably be good in a different setting", etc.

It basically never happens.

How many bust 1st round QBs have gone on to other teams and suddenly become good? They pretty much all either become permanent mediocre backups or end up completely out of the league shortly. 

If you watch Fields play, outside of his running and a few splash play throws, he sucks. He's just a bad QB. Terrible and slow at getting through progressions, panics often if his first read isn't open, he has little to no pocket presence or feel for pressure, he can't seem to read defenses pre or post snap and is very often fooled by any sort of disguised coverage, his footwork and mechanics suck (we know those are things that QBs can improve, but his hasn't in 3 years so far), he sucks at throwing off platform, he's incredibly hesitant to make tight window 2nd level throws down the middle so he usually relies just on boundary throws...which makes it so much easier for NFL defenses to defend. 

He's. Just. Bad.

He's basically a running back who can occasionally complete a pass. If that's really what the Steelers want...good luck with that. My guess is they just figured they might as well grab him for super cheap and see what happens. Best case is he becomes a mediocre backup who can at least come in if need be and run to mix it up (or be a gadget player), worst case is he just continues to suck and they let him go and they lose little.

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

All QBs these days, except for Goff, are dual threats—props to him for bucking the trend and excelling as a pure pocket passer. Elite dual-threat QBs come in all shapes, sizes, and speeds, just like RBs and WRs. Howell's got some serious rushing skills, running a 4.8 or 4.9. But let's be real, a QB with a 4.3 is a freak athlete at that position.

 

 

Comparing those guys to Daniels and trying to confine him to a specific mold is just not fair. None of them, except for Allen (who's a bit out of place in this discussion), have ever rushed for 400 yards. Do we really want Daniels to mirror Prescott, Herbert, and Love, who each barely hit 200 rushing yards in entire seasons?

 

 

Let's look at Love, Herbert, and Dak's playoff performances. Herbert has a subpar winning record, while Love hovers around .500 for their careers. Just imagine the criticism Jackson would face if he didn't maintain a 70% winning record during the regular season. It's a bit ironic, isn't it?

 

Playoffs are difficult, ask Rodgers, the best QB I’ve seen in 20 plus years watching. 

 

Daniels isn't really in the same category as those other quarterbacks you mentioned. He doesn’t at all appear to identify with the dudes you’re listing. He seems focused on becoming an elite passer while also setting his sights on breaking rushing records held by the likes of Vick, Newton, Jackson, Fields, and Cunningham. He's even voiced his ambition to surpass their achievements on the ground. Daniel’s isn’t the number two overall pick if he wasn’t an elite runner. 

 

Peters: “Take the souls of a defense”

 

Daniels: ”Turn on the Florida tape”

 

The QB position continues to evolve, with athleticism becoming increasingly crucial. This trend has been noticeable over the past 15 seasons, and it's a topic I've been discussing for over a decade. While there will always be varying degrees of athleticism and approaches, the baseline expectation for QBs to create, extend plays, and gain rushing yards has been steadily rising.

Again we get to you talking about any QB who can run as a "dual threat". But what YOU'RE talking about is running QBs. Dual threat to me are guys who can run but who's primary weapon is passing. Stop conflating someone like Mahomes or Allen with someone like Lamar or Richardson. Those are completely different types of QBs. Take away Lamar's legs and he scares nobody as a pocket passer. Take away Allen or Mahomes legs and it doesn't matter because they're elite pocket passers first.

The mold I'm trying to "confine" him to are QBs who are long term successes in the NFL vs flash in the pan short career running QBs.

And why am I not surprised that you focused purely on wins in the postseason? I said Lamar plays like ****, not "Lamar hasn't won". Let's look at those guys in the postseason. 

Herbert. Small sample size, one appearance so far - 1 TD 0 INT  84.7 rating

Rodgers - 45 TD 13 INT  100.1 rating

Love. Another relatively small sample size - 5 TD 2 INT 108.6 rating

Dak - 14 TDs 7 INTs 91.8 rating

Allen - 21 TDs 4 INTs 100 rating

Lamar - 6 TDs 6 INTs 75 rating

One of these things is not like the other. Lamar sucks in the postseason. Lamar himself. He doesn't play well, mostly because teams with decent defenses can plan to try and mitigate his legs. He then has to at least partially win from the pocket, and he's utterly mediocre at best there. 

And fine. If Daniels is focused on setting running records and be like Vick, Fields, or Cam I look forward to a handful of exciting games and seasons before he's out of the league, likely with no Lombardi but with a handful of serious injuries. Those QBs don't really last and they neve won ****.

And the QB position has evolved into one where yes you almost have to have an athletic QB who can use his legs when needed to extend plays or run for some first downs, etc. But, again, you're not talking about that, you're talking about running QBs. The league isn't going in that direction. Mostly because coaches know that running QBs are mostly just flashes in the pan and the guys who last and are perennial contenders for a long time are the guys who are elite passers first and only use their legs secondarily when needed.

42 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

How would you describe someone as "primarily a pocket passer?

 

Rushing and pass attempts? Yards?
 

Injuries no doubt are a concern, no argument from me. 

 

Wait, how come whenever I ask you to give me specific numbers for what makes a college QB "dual threat" (for example in the Daniels vs Maye debate) you ignore me but I have to answer you when you ask the inverse?

I don't think there's a certain number of yards, just think of athletic QBs who can use their legs well but who's primary weapon is their arm. Mahomes, Allen, Dak, Love, Herbert, etc. Those guys can all use their legs and get yards when they have green grass in front of them, but their primary weapon is their passing ability.

There's only one successful QB who's primary weapon is his legs and that's Lamar. But as I said, he actually sucks in the postseason when teams have more time to game plan for him and can mitigate his running ability. Take away his ability to run and he's only a mediocre QB.

So yeah I'd bet that Peters and Quinn prefer that Daniels be like those former guys who are primarily passers first, scramblers second. For injury reasons and because running QBs don't win **** in the postseason if their legs are mitigated. Neither Peters or Quinn are stupid. They knows it's a passing league and that's how you win long term. Even in his post day 1 presser, Peters only mentioned Jayden's running ability AFTER he talked about his passing abilities, etc.

I know you really really want running QBs to become a trend, and you've said "it's happening" for years now, but it's just not the case.

5 minutes ago, TurningTheCorner said:

This is a very strong take, I’d take Fields pretty easily over Russel at this point. 

Then you also must like running backs who cosplay as QBs. Passing wins in the NFL. Fields is a ****ty passer.

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

And…

 

Adam Peters/Dan Quinn

Bet you dollars to donuts that Peters and Quinn want Daniels to be primarily a pocket passer and use his legs when necessary but NOT as a primary weapon like actual running QBs. They know perfectly well that passing wins in the NFL and that if Daniels runs as his main weapon it would probably be, at most, half a season before he's in the hospital.

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

You’ll come around in due time  

 

 

Honestly, I'd be shocked if the locker room doesn't start (if not already) leaning towards Fields over Wilson. Wilson will have to put his body on the line and return to running to not be a below average QB. 

Nobody is "coming around". I know you have a borderline fetish for running backs who cosplay as QBs, but the NFL doesn't, even if you live in a fantasy land where it's headed that way. There are basically 2 running QBs in the entire NFL and one of them is a guy who, after only 4 games, has already sustained multiple injuries that ended his season.

The other is a regular season hero who sucks balls in the postseason when teams have more time to game plan for him. 

And the only way anyone would lean towards Fields over Wilson is if Wilson was literally in a coma. Fields is a terrible QB. Good running back, ****ty QB.

5 hours ago, Command The 414 said:

Totally agree and share the same sentiments… to be honest I could easily see Fields taking the reins as soon as week 3-4… Arthur Smith the new OC has to be counting the time till then imho…. I actually think with their additions in FA and the draft they could content with the Ravens easily for the Division… but the AFC North is the best in the NFL I think…

How do you guys not realize what a ****ty QB Fields is? It's kind of amazing that some of you think Russell Wilson needs to "watch his back" or massive 1st round bust running back Justin Fields is somehow going to magically become an actual NFL QB and take the starting job.

On 4/26/2024 at 12:53 PM, Berggy9598 said:

There are dozens if not more highlight reels and full game cut-ups available to the viewing public now a day. It's very hard to watch those and still conclude he's not a good pocket passer, unless someone has already made up their mind and would rather die on that hill. 

I think it's reasonable to watch the film and compare it to the metrics and conclude that there may be legitimate concerns about his ability as a pocket passer in the NFL. There was a post on a blog where a guy did a very thorough metrics comparison and concluded that Daniels seemed to be far closer to Justin Fields and Marcus Mariota as a passer than Lamar Jackson.

Again, I fully support him now, and now that he's a Commander I certainly hope he bucks those trends and doesn't remain in that company and reaches elite potential. But acting indignant that anyone would question his ability as a pocket passer in the NFL is a bit silly.

https://www.dabearsblog.com/2024/jayden-daniels-looks-hauntingly-familiar

Hey guys, been dealing with some health issues and didn't want anyone to think my absence had anything to do with me sulking about this pick.   

Everyone (and their mother, father, priest, dog, cat, and fourth cousin twice removed) knew I preferred Drake Maye. That being said I'm 100% here now to root for JD. I still have concerns but this is one of those times I hope I'm completely wrong and he makes a fool of me. He's certainly talented and has elite potential if he can stay healthy.

Welcome, JD.

Welp, that's that. I'm going to drink now. You all have a good evening.

Just now, KDawg said:

See, this is a bold strategy. If I was going to drink to ease the pain of a pick I truly hated, it would have started 6 hours ago.

Well I didn't want to be so wasted already that I didn't remember. Then I'd wake up tomorrow morning with some misguided hope that we hadn't selected him. Then I'd have to go online and find out and experience the disappointment all over.

Just rip the band-aid off now, and then start with the booze.

Can we please just get the Daniels pick over with so I can go start drinking?

Just now, ExoDus84 said:

damn is chicago entertaining trade offers?

No.

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

JJ Mccarthy looks like a sober Bam Margera.

I believe this is what we would call an oxymoron. 

1 minute ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

But we might trade back into the first round.

Don't really care. I'll just go drink some beers and do something else.

Just now, skinsmarydu said:

Maye all the way??????????????

Unfortunately I'm bracing myself for it being Daniels. Then I probably won't say much. Just shrug, write "sigh" and then log off.

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I really hope, if he is drafted, some of you find a way to un-gaslight yourselves. 

Of course people who think he's not a good prospect couldn't possibly think that for real reasons. We all must just be gaslighting ourselves. 

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

Talk about a 'who's who" of elite QBs

12 minutes ago, bh32 said:

I just watched every pass and run by JD and the way the media was hyping him i was expecting much more..He is not the elusive runner like people make him out to be..He has more long speed than he does burst..

 

His ball placement is no better than Mayes on a lot of his throws..His outside the number throws lack velocity

 

Teams give a lot more space to JD's receivers than they do Maye's which make throws easier for JD

 

 

The way he's hyped you'd think Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson had a kid in a three way with Tom Brady.

7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

My guess is the Giants will be all in for Maye on Thursday, and if they miss they'll draft a QB in a later round.

Given our luck with the Giants, if they manage to get Maye I predict about a 93% chance that he becomes a top 5 QB for the next 10-15 years and will regularly beat us down twice every season during that time period.

Just now, Llevron said:

You see more injuries with guys getting rolled up on than you do with guy being blasted out of the back of their own end zone from 29 yards out. So….there is hope?

Yeah, possibly, but I think that also may have more to do with sample size than anything else. Way more QBs tend to stay in or around the pocket than ones that will be running 20 yards down the field, so it would make more sense for there to be more overall injuries in the pocket, just based on how many QBs tend to stay there. 

Can someone who says Maye has "slow processing" please explain exactly why you think so and give examples? It seems like something people are just sort of repeating, but processing also one of the hardest things to judge because we don't know the play call, we don't know the progression, we don't know exactly what the defense did post snap most of the time, and we don't know whether the OL completely whiffed on their assignments.

That goes for any prospect, not just Maye. Ludicrous processing speed was Brady's superpower. If it was so easy to recognize, he would have been taken much sooner. I don't think it's even possible to know a college prospect's true processing ability until after you see him take some NFL snaps.