TSO

@Thinking Skins I don’t know, brother... I could easily see it as having “broken down” once Snyder got involved (as legitimately everything does when he’s involved), but I can’t just go off of that speculation, as valid as your line of thinking may be. For me, the bigger problem is with the core issue I’ve focused on here where you give someone who has spent his entire career coaching total power over aspects of the organization he’s simply not an expert at. Now, Ron recognized immediately he needed help on the business side and brought in Wright, which was very good, and he quickly realized he needed more help on the player personnel side which has lead to the recent reshaping of the FO... but it’s still not ideal and these are the type of things that happen when it’s not. Are we seeing delusions arising from the top that places too much credit on the coaches at the expense of the scouts who actually did the work to identify these players? Are we going to see them have less of an impact as time goes on? Did we lose out on better prospects at GM because Ron wouldn’t give up final say over the roster (if the argument is that doesn’t really matter and he’s going to delegate anyway, then why not just do it formally? That works both ways since, hey, no big deal and that’s how it’s going to be, right? And that would actually be EXACTLY like the other successful “coach-centric” models and even the Niners which Mayhew wrongly compared our structure with)? These are the things I’m concerned about. Of course, ultimately this is all a “Dan problem” in the first place. So, either way, you’re right. He is the one who simply can’t implement a sound organizational structure to save his life. It’s outrageous at this point, he just can’t do it. Dangit, now I’m being sucked into this rabbit hole. I’m going back to hiding. Everything is awesome, don’t listen to me, I’m an idiot! Yup, 100%, I’m with you.

This is a great point, BFS, but that’s not even it for me. What’s done is done... I’m just concerned about the optics of all this. If Ron actually believes what he’s saying, that’s a big problem. If he doesn’t and is actively lying or reshaping a narrative publicly, that still is quite concerning. There are many layers of issues that arise from the above that I’ve spent most of my time on this board talking about, at least on a surface-level, so I’d rather not go in depth again for what seemingly results in a fruitless endeavor anyway, but yeah... there’s no way I can sit there and just be like:

To add to this, I think the Doug move was simply to remove him from anything to do with football operations and keep him on the business side. I mean, in his last position he was essentially in charge of keeping players in check off the field, and yet not only did he fail that during the season with Haskins, he was actively involved in pushing Ron to make one of the worst “culture-building” decisions I’ve ever seen where Haskins was still entrusted as the starter after breaking COVID protocols for the second time, immediately after a friggin loss! I think Ron was probably livid at this after the fact as, knowing how principled he is, it meant he budged significantly on said principles to chase something short sighted. So, to me at least, this is Doug being removed from anything to do with anything football without outright firing him, lol. He’s a good ambassador to the team and so he should fit in on the business side perfectly well.

(This isn’t directed at you, SIP) I’m going to just let go of how moronic this tweet is, how much misinformation continues to get perpetuated by fans and media about the importance of proper organizational structure, how Dan influencing the process with his “...why not both?” suggestion is indicative of yet another failure on his end to implement said structure, and how what Mayhew said about ours being “loosely defined” is the same crap we’ve been eating for decades under Dan.... Let’s skip all that because I know it’s simply not going to matter to most and I’m just going to be hated for focusing on it. But there’s something about this tweet here I’ve just got to talk about. I have to wonder what happened with Kyle and Ron to get Ron to start pushing this narrative that completely removes him from any positive moves that occurred with the team. This is Ron less than a year ago: So now he’s got fans and media saying stuff like Kyle wasn’t involved at all with these type of moves and the coaches themselves are being given all the credit instead. This is a bit problematic to me on multiple levels. Forget about giving Kyle Smith his due since he’s gone anyway... but this can’t sit well with the remnants of the scouting staff we still have in the building. Now, I doubt Ron is not giving them credit behind the scenes, but you never want to see that being stolen from them publicly. There are many reasons as to why that’s problematic, but I won’t get into that here for the sake of brevity. The other (bigger) issue with this is, it is indicative of how easy it is for people to misconstrue successes or not recognize sound processes when the structure is not defined properly or there’s too much vagueness there. The way it’s supposed to work is that scouts who put in all their time and effort towards evaluating talent present these players to coaches and get input on how they’ll fit (or not) in what the coaches are trying to do. Ideally, the head scout who is the expert at this particular job would then have final say over those decisions. Of course, that’s not what we’ve got going on here, but I digress. The above quote actually shows a semblance of a sound process taking place where that happened. Kyle and the scouts brought this player to their attention and the coaches responded positively. But the lack of this process being formalized structurally now results in that being minimized or completely omitted, at least publicly. If there ever was a clear indication to the issues that arise from poorly implemented organizational structures, and proof that no one should be claiming they’re insignificant even though it means we’re facing a reality we’d rather not face, this is it right here. Something seems really off with this and it’s concerning to say the least. I can get into exactly why it’s concerning on multiple levels, but I’m too tired of this whole topic and I know how I’m likely to be responded to, anyway. So, forgive me for this inconvenience and at least try to know that I’m not actively trying to be negative about anything. 😕

Lol, I just posted the above without seeing the news. So, yeah, Mayhew at GM is better and a step in the right direction. Let’s see if we hear anything regarding the authority that’ll come with the title. We’re inching closer to an optimal structure, but not exactly there yet. And we can certainly question if Mayhew’s resumé is better than someone like Cowden or Schoen, and/or whether guys like that wouldn’t come here because of the lack of final say... but let’s see how this goes.

Man, I just want to say thank you for this. This is where these discussions should go and not the usual where people get all defensive and pissed that it’s not just what they want to hear. So, again, thank you for this. You’ve got some great questions here that are hard to answer, really. It’s mostly opinion-based, but I can try to give you a portion of what I’ve learned researching the topic. First, I think it’s important we separate “Coach-centric” models into two categories, which is what I’ve been trying to get across here lately. The first is the old “Football Emperor” model where the Coach is essentially handed the keys to the empire and (on paper, though of course the reality remains that the owner is still at the top) does what he wants. The second type is what we’ve seen recently from teams like the 49ers, Bills and Chiefs that has had success, where the Coach is hired first and leads or significantly impacts the hiring process of the GM, but the structure ends with the two positions equal in rank and having power over their respective departments. This second model is actually more similar to a traditional “GM-centric” model than anyone thinks, the only real difference being the Coach is hired first and neither GM nor Coach is above each other in rank. I believe the main impetus for this recent approach was for teams to avoid the type of political infighting or factionalism that can occur between coaching staffs and personnel executives. I think these organizations decided they want more synergy between the two and that the best way to do it was to allow the Coach to have a major say in who his GM is with both ending up equals in rank as opposed to one being the boss of another, essentially tying them to the hip even more so than they were before. There’s a lot more to get into about that, but that’s what I think was the main reasoning behind this recent “Coach-centric” model being implemented. The interesting thing about it is that it has worked for the most part. The problem is there are still people confusing it with the “Football Emperor” model where the Coach is essentially the top executive. The differences are important, hence, why I keep posting about it when people label what Dan did with Ron as “Coach-centric” and leave it at that. We’ve already seen media and fans mistakenly compare us to the likes of the 49ers, Bills and Chiefs, and that’s simply incorrect. Well, to be more accurate, I’ve stated that the Patriots are the only example of a sustainably successful franchise that has employed the “HC as Football Emperor” model. Like I’ve said, while technically correct on a surface-level to label it “Coach-centric”, I think it’s important to differentiate between that model and the model that’s been recently proven to be successful as employed by teams like the 49ers, Bills, and Chiefs. So with that out of the way and focusing more on your thoughts, the Patriots model has been a failure virtually anywhere else it’s been implemented, including when previously implemented by Dan. The most recent example of that model failing miserably is with the Texans and Bill O’Brien. But you’re absolutely spot on about Tom Brady and how he essentially made that model work. I’ve detailed this opinion myself multiple times before (click here and especially here for some posts that go into that in great detail) and this season has only provided more evidence of it. So I like where you’re going with this, and there’s actually a lot that can be said about the trajectory of those teams before hiring those coaches, how those coaches really benefited from the previous player-personnel acquisitions that were made before they were hired, and how really it was just some final touches and small tweaks that propelled them to major success... but that’s really another thing entirely. The focus we should have is what models we actually compare to, the pros and cons of said models, and their rate of success around the league. That’s all we can really do as fans to understand what is best and why seemingly everything Dan does fails. It’s not just luck. Certain structures work better than others. It’s the reality. So that’s why I’m making this point in differentiating Coach-centric models and trying to correct this idea that they all look the same. They don’t. One type has essentially failed every time outside of the Patriots (we could get into the Seahawks and include them here since, technically speaking, they fit that “HC as Football Emperor” model as well, but I think there are certain key aspects that separate them from the Patriots), and the other type has shown to be as successful, if not more so, than the traditional “GM-centric” model. This other type does not give the Coach final say over player-personnel and the scouting department itself, that authority still remains within the realm of the GM, it just ties these guys more to the hip since the coach either selects that guy himself or plays a major role in the hiring process. A little side note; it’s important to know that there’s a difference between the pre-salary cap era and the post-salary cap era. When the salary cap was instituted, it only heightened the impact of resource management at the pro level, which only elevated the importance of personnel executives. The “HC as Football Emperor” model was actually fine pre-salary cap, but the resource management factors that got introduced with the salary cap changed that dichotomy very quickly. That is a very legitimate question. So when Dan initially employed his version of “Coach-centric”, he followed the Patriots blueprint (of which others at the time like the Raiders and Texans were following). The same blueprint he’s implemented before with Marty, Gibbs, and Shanny. This isn’t actually new for Dan. And I’d argue NO Coach should really be given that power, successful or not. It’s just not their realm. If it is and they’re really that good at it, then make them Team President or CEO and have them hire a coaching staff and GM so they can focus on that alone. So that brings us to Ron. I know this was kind of your main point and I’ve been skirting around that, so I hope you’ve stuck with me up until now. My original issue with the whole thing. I think Ron is a very good coach. I love his character and integrity. Now, we know very well that a good coach does NOT make for a good executive. And when he was originally hired, I repeatedly stated that it was too much on his plate and one of the reasons this model never works. One could argue that he had shown upper management or executive-type skills during his tenure with the Panthers, but the issue still remained that he’s going to have to do that AND be a coach. We hadn’t seen that from him before and we know this model fails virtually every time it’s been attempted in the salary cap era. His greatest success came in a traditional structure with a GM above him. So, yeah. To say it was concerning would be an understatement. The good news is that he seemingly quickly realized this issue and has been trying to add to the Front Office, never mind when he hired Wright to be Team President and focus on the business side (he mentioned how, after the whole sex scandal stuff started coming out, he realized he needed more help because he was the lone voice there and he got complaints that he didn’t address the entire organization but only addressed the scouts, coaches and players). So he’s trying. That’s a positive. But this is where we’re at right now when judging the entire hiring process that has just occurred. Like I said, I don’t blame him for wanting guys he knows he can trust, but it’s a very legit question to ask whether he’s given up too much in terms of competency and expertise for that. I sincerely believe we couldn’t get people like Cowden or Schoen here because of the lack of autonomy they’d have over their respective departments. Those guys can likely wait it out and get a better job for themselves where they can implement their vision in terms of player personnel as opposed to someone else’s. I’m hoping Mayhew is the one that gets the GM title, as it fits him better. It’s unlikely he gets final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason, but if he does that’s even better and we’re actually structured much more like the coach-centric models that have worked recently.

Welp, might as well try again. For the 8 millionth time, “Coach-centric” does not, and has not, only meant that the Coach is the top executive and reports directly to the owner. In fact, that “Football Emperor” model is actually quite different than the recent successful ones that have been termed “Coach-centric”. As is the case with the 49ers, Bills and Chiefs, Coach-centric only meant that the Coach was hired first and either lead or had a major say in the hiring process of the GM. But once the GM was hired HE WAS NOT MADE INTO A LESSER RANK NOR DOES HE REPORT TO THE COACH. They are both equals in rank, both have full autonomy over their respective departments (so GM DOES have final say over roster and who he hires/fires in the scouting department), and both report to someone else. Now, that someone else doesn’t HAVE to be the owner and can be a Team President or CEO or whatever. If that’s the sole justification we have for this structure, in that we’d rather not have them reporting to Dan, well there’s your answer and, for me, it’s just not enough to justify it. To me, Dan is a problem no matter what structure we have (and we’ve implemented this exact same one multiple times before) so I’d rather have one known to have a decent success rate versus one known to fail almost every time. An actual “coach-centric” model as described in this post or a “GM-centric” one we all traditionally know are simply better with proven structures that formalize sound processes and the highest success rates. In the end, it all comes down to Dan’s hiring process. If we can praise the hiring of Ron that means he could’ve also hired someone competent to lead an actual “coach-centric model” where Coach and GM are both reporting to said competent guy or do it the traditional way and hire a competent, qualified, GM first. There just isn’t a way to look at this and say, “yup, this is the best for us, for Dan, everything is awesome!” I’m sorry, it just isn’t. Does that mean it will fail? Absolutely not! In fact, even with the model Dan has employed with Ron of which has been a proven failure more than anything else, this is STILL the best group of “football people” we’ve had working together under Dan. That’s not saying a whole lot considering how awful it’s been, but yeah, there is definitely plenty to be hopeful about.

I’ll get into the other parts of your post another time as I feel there’s some nuance there regarding my positions you’re missing (and that’s ok, it’s a lot to take in and I totally expect that because it’s just not what we as fans are accustomed to), but I wanted to focus on this part here. Not that you care, or anyone else does, but I’m proud of you for this. I’ve come to the same realization in that we can’t get lost in this stuff, it’s just not worth it, and we’ve got to prioritize our lives better. That’s why I barely post anymore. The other part of my lack of posting is I know I come off as overly negative and I sincerely don’t want to or intend to, but it’s just what happens when you really dive deep and understand the core of the issues with Dan and what he’s done here organizationally relative to the rest of the league. I will, however, say this before I go into the other points you made in your post at a later time. This is STILL the best organizational structure, with the best group of “football people”, we’ve had under Dan. My points aren’t made to poop on it entirely, though I know it comes across like that, it’s more about just the disappointing nature of it not being optimal and that calling it the best during Dan’s tenure is actually not saying a whole lot considering just how awful it’s been. (btw, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t me who discussed anything with you about the Wizards, I don’t think I ever talked about them here, lol)

Never claimed to be an expert and never aspired to be anything more than a fan on a friggin message board, so that has nothing to do with anything. All I’ve always claimed was that I’ve researched the various organizational structures around the league and have presented it here multiple times. I get that it’s boring and annoying, and I’ve spoken about how the media plays a major role in perpetuating the ignorance about those things, which is why fans over-emphasize coaching at the pro level... but your response is why I largely stay quiet and avoid saying anything the last few years. It seems to be a fruitless endeavor, so hey, I agree with you on that at least. But your drive-by posting isn’t okay and is a direct violation of our rules here. Now, this is partly my fault because I humored you last time you did it and even joked about it: ...But I shouldn’t have because you’ve got enough warnings for me to know that you should know these rules by now or that you simply don’t care enough about the quality of this board to follow them. Either way it’s not good. What I should’ve done was point you to rule 5 (of which you’ve violated before) and rule 7: I’ve bolded the parts you need to look at specifically to make it easier on you since it’s obvious you don’t like actually reading and understanding where a person is coming from before responding. This serves as a warning for you. Like I said, it’s my fault I humored you last time so I won’t penalize you even though it’s well within my prerogative considering your history here. But to come back with another drive-by post and ignore everything I said by just calling it “fan fiction” without even attempting to address anything? Nah, we’re not having that here. Sorry, this isn’t a board for you to take a dump on and treat like any other social media-type dumpster. It’s our duty as moderators to facilitate an atmosphere that breeds quality discussions here.

You know I’m 100% with you in terms of the prospects of all this (and, man, I feel for you trying to explain it here, lol)... but I will say this. I don’t blame Ron. Like, at all. This has been my position with every coach hired here. It’s not their fault Dan can’t set up a decent organizational structure to save his life. I don’t blame Ron for accepting the “Football Emperor” position... I mean, why not? It sounds great. And any concerns you have about the idiot owner sabotaging you, well, you can try (key word: try) to mitigate yourself if you’re at the top of the totem pole. But everyone does this. Everyone hires who they’re comfortable with. It’s normal. Yeah, you don’t want that to be the main reason they’re hired at the expense of competency, but it’s just simply an essential human quality and no one is perfect. Guess what, though? You can avoid that very human trait becoming a negative with, you guessed it, sound organizational principles being implemented from top to bottom. If you’re going to give a coach all this power to do whatever he wants, you can’t then blame him for doing what is comfortable. This is all Dan. An owner can delegate all they want, but the one major role they still have to fulfill that will dictate the success of their team is their hiring process. He doesn’t even have one as far as I’m concerned. He gets desperate after failing to create a somewhat normal organizational structure by hiring or elevating the most unqualified fools to be his top exec, and then has to give the entirety of Front Office power to a coach just to be able to bring someone respectable in. The pattern literally never fails. He’s just a reactionary that shifts to extremes when said extremes fail. That’s actually his philosophy - to not really have one. So I don’t blame Ron for taking that and doing what any human being would. Dude wants to be comfortable and not be looking over his shoulders within the building. I mean, who knows what he’s already seen from Dan. Could’ve been just a word here or there. Heck, maybe it’s all the crap he’s read about Dan with all the legal stuff and minority owners going off. But he knows this could all go south real quick. So here we are. My favorite part of the initial presser after Ron was hired was when he said: My God, like where do I start? There’s our genius owner’s philosophy right there as spelled out by Ron. I dare anyone to really dig into that - I mean actually research the various models that exist around the league - and come out with anything other than disgust in their heart. I mean, first off... “weeks” of research? Really!? He’s the friggin owner for God’s sake! He should be living and breathing the various methods and philosophies of successful organizations to the point where he can describe each one and their pros and cons right off the tip of his tongue! Weeks!? You kidding me? Second (and I’m legit exhausted by now trying to get this point across to no avail), the most successful “coach-centric” models that have been employed around the NFL DO NOT REMOVE THE GM FROM HAVING POWER OVER HIS RESPECTIVE DEPARTMENT. So there’s that, but hey, who’s counting amirite? So regarding the above quote, sure, the Patriots fit the “Head Coach as Football Emperor” model, congrats Dan you got that right. The Seahawks? Debatable since they’ve had a strong GM presence in Schneider from the start, but ok, let’s just accept that (technically speaking and on paper) they were comparable since Carroll retained final say. But the Chiefs? Nope. They have a HC and GM equal in rank, both reporting to the CEO, with both having final say over their respective departments. He mentioned “some of the others”. Who? There aren’t any more successful ones to list with the same model Dan sold Ron on! If they’re talking about the 49ers and Bills, of which the media wrongly started lumping us in with as following the same “coach-centric” model, and of which I believe Ron later mentioned as examples... welp, sorry, they’re also like the Chiefs in that their HC and GM are equals in rank, both report to someone else, and both have final say over their respective departments. So right there, our brilliant owner has no idea what he’s talking about. He sees no nuance, no details, only generalized and overly simplistic concepts. If he did, he’d only say the Patriots and Seahawks and the LAST THING he’d claim is that this was the most successful model around the league or some nonsense. The only real accurate example of sustainable success we have here with the model he initially employed with Ron is the Patriots with Belichick. That’s it. And if anyone just looks at it sincerely, they’ll notice that anyone who has attempted the same thing anywhere else has failed miserably. Belichick’s coaching tree is a disaster for a reason. That reason is two words. Tom Brady. He’s why that worked. He was what made every aspect of organizational management so easy for the Pats to the point where one guy can run it all at a high level. So that’s what brilliant Dan sold to Ron. It’s what he did with Marty, Gibbs, and Shanny, too. I think people forget that. We had this same exact model with Shanny, who was even behind bringing in Bruce Allen as GM, but was Head Coach and Team President with all the power given to him by Dan. Dan will corrupt things whenever and however he wants, this model isn’t going to stop him, but I digress. Instead of recognizing, and thus relating to Ron, how often this model fails and how unlikely it is to be successful, which is what anyone who’s done any decent amount of research around the league will come to understand... instead of even pointing at the recent example of it failing within our own division where Chip Kelly seized power with the Eagles and immediately failed... instead of looking at where the Texans were headed with Bill O’Brien taking control (something fools like us on a friggin message board were projecting based on that model)... instead of going through the history of the salary cap era and seeing how it essentially NEVER works and how the best set ups were either the GM-centric models or a coach-centric model that didn’t remove the GMs power over personnel, but made it more balanced between Coach and GM... instead of that this is the overly simplistic bs we got, and Ron got, from our owner. I don’t blame Ron for that. He shouldn’t even have to know these things, he’s a friggin football coach. A teacher. His most successful years were within traditional structures where he could just focus on coaching. Fans like us shouldn’t even know these things. This is EXACTLY what an owner should know better than anyone, though. But ours just did some “weeks of exploration” and came up with that. Awesome. So none of this is surprising. It really shouldn’t be. At least we are hiring a GM. So that would make us similar to the Seahawks structurally. That adds ones more example of a successful “HC as Football Emperor” operation we’d be comparable to, I guess. Now, since it’s Hurney, he (admittedly) doesn’t come close to Schneider in terms of personnel-evaluating ability, but he knows that as well so, I mean, all we can do is give it a chance. And the Seahawks are somewhat of an anomaly considering Carroll doesn’t hesitate to essentially admit Schneider is running the show with personnel, at least during the offseason (which is why I said it’s debatable to include them in this model Dan set up, but again I digress). Either way, the reality is that we’re just going to have root for, once again, being an exception to the rule and somehow overcoming a net negative organizationally speaking. It’s extremely rare. Like drafting Tom Brady in the 6th round rare... but it can happen. That’s what we’re rooting for. And I’ll root hard for Ron, like I always do with every coach that gets hired here and every player that gets acquired. It’s really not their fault. As far as I’m concerned, they’re simply set up to make these mistakes and the longer they work with Dan the more it’ll happen. Don’t be surprised if in year four Ron is making the most basic of mistakes on the field, as well. This is 100% on Dan and his inability to set up an organization following any semblance of sound principles. Enough with this guy, it’s maddening.

So I see the disconnect here. That’s not what would happen and that’s not what I’m advocating. The GM wouldn’t be his boss, he’d be his equal. This is what the Bills, Niners and Chiefs have going on. It would actually be a “Coach-centric” model that has proven to be successful multiple times if that happens and we still get the proper authority given to each side to fulfill their roles without unwarranted interference. We’d have the delicious simplicity of qualified hires having autonomy over their respective departments. Imagine that!

This is what I’ve been trying to correct, actually. You’re fault, you said to correct you if you’re wrong so now I have to, lol. 😛 The majority of “Coach-centric” models around the league and, in fact, the recent successful ones that have essentially created that buzz word in the Niners, Bills, and Chiefs are NOT ones in which the Head Coach ends up with final say over the roster. This is arguably the largest point I’m trying to make. So many people make this mistake. Dan tried to hijack that buzz word and claim he’s implementing that model, but he only implemented his “HC as Football emperor” model (the same one he always implements after a failed stint with one of his unqualified executives leading the show or are working in tandem with the Coach in some convoluted and vague structure none of us can understand or grasp). The above “coach-centric” models end up with a qualified GM that has power over the roster. They’re not labeled “coach-centric” because they take that away. The traditional one in which a GM is hired first and then everything goes through him is fine by me, as well, and has been traditionally the most conducive to success around the league, though the “coach-centric” model as implemented above is quickly gaining ground on it. Either way, we’ve never had that implemented here (either the GM or Coach-centric model) where someone actually qualified gets that GM position and has the authority to implement his vision. I think the arguments about personality and managing Dan STILL would apply to those models, but that’s not the key point I’m making and I feel like I’m not getting that across well enough. So it’s important to know that the actual “coach-centric” models everyone has been raving about recently were only that because the coach was hired first, he had a major say in who the GM would be, but then they are made to be equals in rank with both having autonomy over their respective departments. That isn’t what happened last offseason, though we’re inching closer to it currently and that has me excited. To me, that would be the best model to end up with (I’m rooting hard for it, though I get it’s unlikely Ron gives up his power over the roster - just that power, not at an actual “reporting to” and having his job on the line with level) and most of your arguments would still apply in terms of managing Dan. It’d actually be better, in my opinion, because that’d mean you have two guys loyal to each other and both of their jobs even more tied to their hips than normal in order to keep Dan at bay. Another key point I’m making is that I feel the reality of “keeping Dan at bay” or “handling Dan” is a fool’s errand and I highly doubt it’s even possible, so choosing a lesser model (HC as Football Emperor) that almost ALWAYS fails at the pro level based on an attempt to “handle Dan” just doesn’t make me feel better. All I want is to see, for once, qualified hires given the authority their titles need to fulfill those roles without unwarranted interference. I’m so tired of having to justify why we can’t be normal. I just want to see it ONCE before I say it won’t work here. I mean, let’s be honest, it’s likely NOTHING will work here in a sustained manner because of Dan. But I just want to try what has proven to be most conducive to success around the league once and not have to hope we’ll be an exception like always. I’m just done with that. Does that help?

Look, I think Kyle absolutely has the potential to be a great GM in this league and I’ve been a fan of his work for some time now, so I get the general consternation that exists among us about him being looked over and/or not given a shot at the position, but we have to understand that an equally important aspect of this hire is that there’s synergy between the head personnel exec and the head coach. As fans of this team we should know this better than anyone else, as there hasn’t been a coach here that has had real support and a synergistic relationship with their personnel department during Dan’s tenure, which in my view is the biggest reason they all either fail miserably or are unable to sustain success for any significant amount of time, all departing with losing records. Now, that can’t come at the expense of qualifications or proven expertise, so the hire has to be both someone Ron is comfortable with as well as someone who has proven to be good at what he does. But we shouldn’t be mad if the latter isn’t the only thing Ron’s looking at and the former has equal weight. I think Kyle is perfectly capable, but for whatever reason he’s just not a fit. I’d love to know why, but that’s what’s unfolding before us. The Stokes interview essentially confirms it. I’m going to be extremely disappointed if it’s solely because of a lack of the authority the position should hold and only people willing to accept that qualify, but I find it difficult to believe a guy like Cowden would come here without that either, so I’m holding off on that thought for now. Now, if we find out it’s because of Snyder or something, then yeah, they deserve every ounce of criticism we levy at them regarding the hiring process, but until that’s made clear I think it’s fair to assume Ron is leading this. I mean, we’ve simply NEVER seen an extensive hiring process like this for the GM position. It’s frankly awesome and what many of us have been begging for, for years. All these guys with a history of evaluating talent, quite a few coming from really successful programs... it’s glorious. It’s hard to believe Snyder is behind that. I don’t think that guy actually knows what a sound hiring process looks like. If Ron ends up hiring a former Panthers’ associate, then ok, I can see why we would have an issue with that. But someone like Cowden, Schoen, Wooden, or even Polk? I think I’m 100% ok with that. So I’m not one to just look at everything with burgundy and gold glasses, but I feel pretty good about the way this is going so far, even if my initial desire of Kyle getting promoted to the position doesn’t happen. I just pray it ends up, structurally, in the way it has been proven to be most conducive to success. If not, it’s disappointing but still way better than anything we’ve ever had during Snyder’s tenure. As always, have to qualify all the above with a reminder that Dan is still the owner and all can be corrupted within a moment’s notice. 😕

See why I said that, @Skinsinparadise, dude didn’t even read it and had an attack ready to go.

This is, like, literally the main point I’ve been making regarding your leanings that “HC as Football Emperor” is not really the best model but is the best model only to keep crazy Dan at bay... and then you just drop this like it’s nothing? 😛 I’m just playing, but I think you do mistake (not purposely or in a sinister manner) one of the key points I’m making about this, so forgive me if I sound like a broken record but it’s worth repeating just based off what I’m reading here. I have a problem calling the current organizational model we have “coach-centric”. As originally implemented with Ron, it just didn’t fit any of the models around the league recently referred to as such. This model was always Dan’s “Football Emperor” model that he’s employed before, he just hijacked the “coach centric” label because it was a buzz word around the league after the Chiefs, Bills and Niners employed it to much success. I just hate how everyone fell for it. We shouldn’t let him get away with it. Those teams did not just hand ultimate power over to their coaches; what made them “coach-centric” was only that those coaches were hired first and/or had a major say in the hiring of the GM. Then said coach and GM were made equals in rank and were given full autonomy over their respective departments (the Niners have an interesting checks and balances system they also added between the two, but I digress). Really, the only significant difference between that and a traditional GM-centric model is that the GM isn’t in charge of hiring/firing the HC or his assistants since they’re equals. Neither is above the other and someone else above them (owner/CEO/Team President) makes that decision. There is only one team that has shown sustainable success employing the Emperor model Dan implemented with Ron and that’s the Patriots. That’s it. And I know we both have agreed in the past that Brady was the biggest factor to that success, so emulating them was always a silly endeavor and a crutch for fans who love to overly-emphasize the impact of coaching at the pro level. If we do hire a legit GM with personnel chops, which it seems like we’re doing, then it resembles only the Seahawks in terms of successful examples of a similar “HC as Football Emperor” model. And Ron is similar to Caroll in that he’ll pretty much give that guy the authority to build the roster, I just don’t like that it’s not official. The Seahawks have a weird dynamic there where it's not official with Schneider, yet Caroll essentially credits him with everything. Someone can actually hire Schneider away from there even with him keeping the same title just by inserting final say into his contract so it wouldn’t be considered a lateral move. That’s crazy to me why they’d risk that and there was even talk towards the end of the season he could get plucked away because of it. More than that, though, there is something to be said about formalizing processes and binding them contractually to everyone involved so no one unwarrantedly interferes. And that is not a negation of collaboration, it’s the opposite actually. When there is trust between people and everyone has the autonomy to fulfill their roles relative to their expertise, they support each other much more positively and have no ulterior motives or suspicions. Again, I know you agree with the above and you’re focused on Dan being the maniacal loser he is, but I think it bore repeating and flows into the following point I’m making to counter your inclination here that this is the best way to manage Dan. Now, as unlikely as it is, Ron bringing in someone who he’d consider an equal to him in rank and giving him final say over his respective department would make a strong combination against Dan interfering negatively. They both can handle him and manage him, especially if, as you say, their personalities are similar and fit the “Dan-handling” type. I mean, to be honest, I’m not sure there’s such a thing even. We can point to Gibbs and how Ron is of a similar temperament, but did he really “handle” Dan? I know you and I have both made the argument against others that, actually, it was a big problem and Gibbs humored him too much. So I know you agree with me here and if we’re saying Ron is like Gibbs, then I’m not sure that’s a big enough positive to justify having a model that fails at an extremely high rate. Which means we’re just settling for something as is because, well, that’s the situation we’re in right now. It’s not really anything more than that. I just want a qualified GM hired and given the authority he should have respective to that position. I can’t believe this is STILL a thing with Dan. It’s maddening. The fact is, successful coach-centric models around the league ACTUALLY HAVE THAT. We can’t act like they don’t and that the model we have is the same. And we should recognize that we’re employing a model that almost NEVER works. I know people want to kill me for saying that and it’s depressing, but I’m sorry. It’s the truth. I challenge anyone to show me otherwise. Go study the various models around the league. Doesn’t mean it won’t work, just that it’s highly likely not to. Which is unfortunate. And I just don’t see why I should assume this is the best way to handle Dan while ignoring that we’ve never actually seen a normal - proven to be conducive to success at the pro level - organizational set up with a qualified GM in charge of his respective department (again, that happens in Coach-centric models and not just GM-centric ones). Your points about the type of personality needed to manage Dan are valid, but they aren’t strong enough, in my opinion, to mean it can only apply to a Head Coach and not a GM. Anyway, I’m going to stop here with you on this (though I always enjoy our conversations ). I’m not annoyed at you’re thinking, to the contrary, I hope you’re right and I see validity in it. The reason I want to cut it off here is I just know that what I’m saying is met with a ton of annoyance from most posters and so I’m just being a source of frustration, especially after we just made the playoffs and people are still on that high. I just can’t help but be slightly disappointed if this hire isn’t given final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason. And I think I just have way too much evidence on my side to feel that way. I know you’re ok with this because of how crazy Dan is, but I just can’t get to that point. Best way to sum up why I can’t is because Crazy Dan is crazy no matter what and can only be handled to a point, will corrupt organizational hierarchies no matter what, and has no clue what sound organizational principles are... so I just want the best model proven to be conducive to success around the league implemented here just to see what happens.

Every single executive and coach hired here has said it’s a collaborative effort. It’s not even feasible for anyone to actually do everything at this level. Marty said it. Gibbs said it. Shanny said it. Vinny said it. Allen said it. Everyone is ideally collaborating, but that’s the problem. There are good organizational structures that codify and systematize good processes where the right people are able to fulfill their roles without unwarranted interference. The evidence is widespread around the league as to what that looks like. That’s what I’m talking about here. Can’t just stick my head in the sand. 😕 I’m with you that this is different. And not just a smidgen. There are plenty of things we can point to, and I actually mentioned them in the post I made right before the one you quoted. But I’ll do it again here just so everyone knows I’m not totally down on this set up. I just want what’s best, that’s all. Things that are different: 1) Dan has been embarrassed before, but this is the worst it’s ever been. He’s being attacked on all sides legally and personally. We’ve seen embarrassed Dan before and we know it eventually wears off and he’s right back at his destructive tendencies, but this time it might last longer than ever before. 2) Ron was given an authority here I don’t think anyone has ever had, hence he was able to change Snyder fixtures like the Athletic Training Staff lead by Larry Hess among other organizational shifts that removed Dan’s most tenured and loyal staff members. I was probably the only poster on here the last how many years who was focused on Larry Hess and co. regarding injuries when most brilliant fans were blasting the coaches for it. 🤦🏽‍♂️ So no one was more pleased we upgraded there and the positive results were immediate. 3) An emphasis is being placed on the scouting department and its leadership unlike any other time before during Dan’s tenure. Promoting Kyle Smith was important, though I argued last offseason we needed to do more, and here we are doing just that now. The wide net being cast is extremely promising. Interviewing people like Cowden and even the latest news with Jojo Wooden and Nick Polk, is incredibly refreshing and what quite a few of us have been begging for, for years! We’re actually interviewing people who are currently in the league and part of some successful programs (or at least widely recognized for playing significant roles in building pretty good rosters). That’s really a dream come true for us. For me, it’s just one more step that needs to be taken for me to feel really good about the set up (of course, Snyder looms large so that feeling is limited). I was advocating for a legit GM hire last offseason and was being told that it wasn’t necessary and everything is fine as is. That Kyle Smith is “de facto” GM and final say over personnel doesn’t matter. Welp, Ron clearly didn’t agree with the first part of that so I guess those guys have to change their thoughts since it’s pretty much exclusively tied to whatever the Coach they like at the time thinks or regurgitating whatever media content they prefer that gives them what they want to hear. If the new hire is given final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason as Ron himself originally stated before being hired here... I’ll be absolutely ecstatic and this will be a model best suited for sustainable success. If not, it’s still the best we’ve had under Snyder, just not ideal. Then again, there can be no ideal with Snyder as owner. So, yeah. 🤷🏽‍♂️

I get it. But to be fair, we should be scared either way, lol. He’s a big enough nightmare that it doesn’t even matter if someone is good at managing him. Heck, we’re learning in little bits and pieces that Allen was doing just that (with the reports that he was trying to talk Dan out of Haskins). Don’t get me wrong, I know Allen absolutely sucked at it and added his own issues, but what I’m saying is that “managing” someone as toxic as Dan is never easy and will inevitably cause problems. So my counter to your line of thinking, which again is totally valid and I’m not dismissing completely, is that we’ve never seen an actual coach-centric (or GM-centric for that matter) model employed that includes someone actually qualified in the personnel executive role with the proper authority he should have. Until that happens, how can we really judge that Dan would still “co-opt” that guy just as easily as the others? Aren’t most of the arguments for why the “right coach” can manage him the same for the “right GM”? Furthermore, couldn’t it be argued that it would make it harder on Dan to co-opt anyone if both Head Coach and GM are equals in rank (as it is in most “Coach-centric” models, hence why it’s important we distinguish between them and the “Football Emperor” model we’ve got going on here thus far) and he’s got to listen to both sides equally? I guess what I’m saying is, I just don’t see why Ron would necessarily be better at managing Dan alone. In fact, one can argue that, since he’s alone at the top, Dan has an easier avenue to manipulate things than were it more spread out between two. Since Ron is also the top executive, he takes on that hat that Dan corrupts things through, anyway. He essentially IS the “Vinny” or “Bruce”. It seems to me that the best structure at keeping Dan at bay would be to have two guys at the top, equal in rank, with the authority over their respective departments, and loyal to each other. That is actually the exact “Coach-centric” model employed by the Chiefs, Niners, and Bills, where the loyalty is tied to the Coach being the guy selecting or having major input in who the GM is, but not actually having dominion over their jobs. And let’s be honest, if Dan wanted to he’d just undermine Ron anyway and force the issue with someone else in the building. He can corrupt the hierarchy any time he wants. 😕 I think the strongest part of your argument regarding what’s best for THIS organization and THIS owner is that, yes, personnel executives do operate more behind the scenes and, thus, can be conveniently used and manipulated by an owner that doesn’t want anyone seeing it. So I think that alone might make your argument stronger. I don’t know, and like I said Ron is also operating in that role so it still is an avenue for Dan. But I also know that we haven’t actually seen a qualified personnel executive here with a legitimate resumé hired... so I just can’t assume that type of person would end up like Vinny and Bruce in terms of just capitulating to Dan, at least not more so than it being possible with Ron or anyone else. Hope I’m making sense. In the end, I don’t care who it is and the quality of their character, this sucks we even have to discuss this. Dan will remain a major issue and hindrance to success and anyone will eventually suffer for it. Gibbs did and so will Ron.

I know I know, and you know we pretty much agree on everything, lol, just wanted to clarify because of how easily people get mislead on this.

I feel bad for you, man, you’re fighting an impossible battle here. None of this matters to most fans. The magic coaching change is the most enticing thing in the world and owners/executives know it. The reality of sound organizational structures and principles being implemented is almost totally lost on fans and we have no idea how to judge it or judge those within it for the most part, so Ron the super awesome coach who can change everything with his assistant coaches and their magical schemes is a narrative just too damn tempting to not accept for most. We’re just annoying everyone saying anything else. The sad thing is, they’ll eventually turn on him just like every other coach that has come here. I mean, we briefly saw it with the Haskins stuff at the start of this year, which was a perfect microcosm of what Dan and his organizational corruption does to people. But, hey, maybe this time IS different. And that isn’t just based on blind hope. There are some legit differences this time around, like the people we have in the scouting department this time (Kyle Smith) and who we’re looking at to lead it (Cowden or Schoen hopefully), but the biggest of which is Dan’s legal issues and general public humiliation that might mean he’s kept at bay more easily than at any other time.

We’ve gotten into this before and I’ve told you I think this is a valid opinion to have if you want to believe that there is simply no hope with Dan and somehow the Head Coach manages to shield him from everything while not getting influenced negatively either (I’ve got problems with that argument, never mind it means we’re stuck in a model that’s been proven to fail more often than the others, but I won’t get into that here)... but then we can’t call this a “coach-centric model”. At least not how it was presented to us by Dan and Ron in that initial presser. I know fans were confused as well because they started claiming things like we’re doing it just like the Chiefs, 49ers and Bills. It’s just not. I know that might seem like nitpicking or semantics, but I think it’s important to distinguish these models because it’s at the core of why people fall for the same marketing tool used by owners where a coaching change or one or two big player personnel moves pacifies the fans. It’s the same “Football Emperor” model Dan has employed with previous coaches (Schotty, Gibbs, Shanny, and now Rivera) that he does after his previous model where some unqualified personnel executive and coach tandem fails miserably. He literally implements the same pattern every single time without fail. In terms of models employed around the NFL with proven success, the Coach-centric models employed by the Bills, 49ers, and Chiefs are significantly different. What makes them “Coach-centric” is only that they hired the coach first or simultaneously with a GM, the Coach had major say in who the GM was, but the GM still was given power over the roster in the traditional manner. That is key to understand. If that’s how it ends up here then, yes, this is a great model to have and is one that follows the GM-centric traditional one with the only difference being that the Coach was hired first or had the ultimate say in who the GM was. But, structurally in terms of proper authority given over one’s respective department, it’s the same. Right now we’re like the Patriots. Bill Belichick isn’t operating in that kind of model, he IS the Football Emperor there. Final say over everything. This model essentially never works, unless you draft Tom Brady in the 6th round. The Patriots are pretty much the only team that has had sustained success employing this model with the Seahawks being another one, albeit to a much lesser degree since there are key differences with the way they do it. So if we do hire a legitimate GM, but Ron retains final say over the roster to, as you put it, essentially manage Dan... then the ONLY comparison we’d have to this model being successful would be the Seahawks. That’s it. Just one franchise. 😕 That’s what is scary about this. There are so many more examples of this type of model failing miserably. We’d only have the Seahawks as a means of hope to say, hey, maybe it ends up just like them. I do think Rivera is similar to Caroll in that he’ll let his GM really do the work and be recognized for it like John Schneider is (Caroll essentially credits him with next to everything personnel-related, including hitting on Russel Wilson), so we have that at least. I just think it’s important to know these differences. And for fans to know that what you’re saying here isn’t necessarily a positive, and that it means Dan is STILL a major hindrance to success in that we have to settle for a model like this. Hopefully we don’t. Even better, hopefully Dan is forced to sell and this nightmare of having to worry about who is “managing” him or whatever is over and the owner is actually a positive force in shaping the organization, not a total liability.

I agree with this in essence, but I will say that there are ways to go about this that succeed more than others. So while we don’t know in the end, the process does matter. And that’s not just about good programs versus bad programs but a lot of other factors. One of those factors, for instance, is certainly based on the players they were in charge of acquiring or had a significant role in acquiring; that isn’t useless information (though even that needs to be contextualized to a degree and isn’t as simple as saying x amount of players succeeded and y amount of players failed). So one can understand the hesitation with someone like Mayhew, for instance. But, yeah, they shouldn’t just be automatically written off. Like you said, the fact that Ron is actually running these interviews (or at least we hope that’s the case, we’ve seen this before only to find out Snyder was much more involved than we initially were told) and, as I’ve recently mentioned, the fact that he is looking to upgrade the Front Office and isn’t just satisfied with the status quo are HUGE positives that are different than what has occurred at any other time during Snyder’s tenure.

I love that you said this. At least you understand how limited we are about all this stuff and you’re not acting like it’s meaningless because of that. I blame the media for that mostly, but I digress. If one wants to dig deep and research it, there is enough out there to understand it at a high enough level. Not necessarily in terms of who is a good hire or not, but just to get an understanding of sound organizational principles and hiring processes. It’s hard though. You can find more about who was the assistant offensive line coach in 2003 with a quick google search before you can find anything about the scouting department and its executives. I’ve been pulling my hair out for years trying to detail it as much as I can on here next to no avail, lol. But to keep it simple, if you want to know how NOT to go about these hires, just look at how Snyder has went about it his entire tenure. For God’s sake, his top personnel executives, if it’s not the coach himself which almost never works, have both been guys that no one wanted, were out of the league at the time he hired them, and had failed at their previous stint (Vinny and Bruce). And those guys would last a friggin decade. Insanity. 🤦🏽‍♂️

Hmmm... that’s an interesting way of looking at it. I don’t know if we have anything to go off of at this point other than our gut feelings and what occurs around the league with these type of things. My hope is that we hire Cowden and/or Schoen (I like Rick Smith and I like the Vikings no. 2 guy Paton, too, though I think the Broncos have pretty much nabbed the latter already), and somehow manage to keep Kyle in his current role. Kyle’s current title is pretty much what no. 2 personnel guys have, anyway, so he wouldn’t be getting demoted or anything. And if reports are true that he’s not getting any offers that would make him a legit GM, then I could totally see him staying regardless. But, yeah, I can see something like what you posit happening. That a hire like Hurney is only to groom Kyle into that role because Hurney would be one of the few to accept that reality. I don’t think Cowden or Schoen would come here to basically be a placeholder for a few years. Still, I’d rather not have to hope that happens. Let’s just hire a friggin qualified GM for the first time during Snyder’s tenure. It’s crazy that it’s NEVER happened. Just once let’s get a guy who has been a significant part of a successful scouting/resource management operation for a significant amount of time and hasn’t been out of the league for years after having failed at their previous stint. Just once!

Well, it wasn’t long ago that I was being told here we wouldn’t even hire a GM, the structure was perfectly fine as is, and that Kyle Smith was “de facto GM”... and no matter how much evidence I brought contesting those notions it seemed to not matter at all. So I’m already pleased at the fact that Ron isn’t accepting the status quo here and wants to improve the structure of the Front Office. That being said, I’m with @ConnSKINS26 and others that it’d be super disappointing if we end up hiring a Mayhew or a Hurney and that’s it. I adore the idea of someone like Cowden or Schoen, and not just because of their quality resumés, but because it’s unlikely they’d even entertain the job if it didn’t come with the proper power over the roster.

I know you know how much I hate saying this regarding this issue, but you’re probably right here. It’s tough to see someone conceding that power. And I’m going to forgive you for calling this “coach-centric”, because it’s not really based on those models as I’ve gotten into a bunch of times, but that’s a nitpick I won’t get into right now for the sake of your sanity. 😛 But here’s where I’m holding out some hope and am unwilling to put it at zero percent like you are. The fact of the matter is that, for any legitimately qualified candidate to accept the position here from Ron, it’s going to have to come with final say over personnel, at least over the 90 during the off-season. That’s what any of these guys worth their salt want and there’s simply way too much evidence around the league to think otherwise. So if we’re truly linked to guys like Schoen, I have to think Ron is willing to give that to him. I just don’t see a hot commodity like Schoen even entertaining the position here without that power. Schoen himself knows what an actual successful “coach-centric model” looks like since he’s been with the Bills, and it’s NOT that the Coach has final say over personnel. Furthermore, we can’t forget what Ron himself said after he was fired by the Panthers and before he was hired here (bolded emphasis mine): https://www.nfl.com/news/silver-ron-rivera-ready-to-roll-into-next-hc-job-0ap3000001092047 So Ron understood fully that the structure should be set up to where the personnel experts have control over their area of expertise and he has control over his. Now, on the other hand, there’s a part of me that thinks the reason Kyle Smith isn’t getting consideration (if we are to believe the reports) has nothing to do with his inexperience or temperament as some are arguing now, but actually has to do with the fact that he wouldn’t want that title if it didn’t mean he had the autonomy he should have in that position relative to his expertise. We shouldn’t forget he said he wanted to be a GM even after he got promoted to his current role: To me, that was a clear indication it wasn’t just about titles (since his current role essentially makes him head scout and some even mistakenly label it “de facto GM”), but about the desired autonomy the GM title would officially give him in a properly structured organization. So there’s a lot to unpack there, I know. If Kyle isn’t being considered, and I’m reading into it correctly, that would seem to indicate that Ron won’t give that power up. But if guys like Schoen are being considered, that would indicate the opposite as it's unlikely someone of his caliber would take that position without the control over personnel it should have. So, yeah, there is a sliver of hope here that I have and I think it’s based on some sound evidence that it’s better than a zero percent chance Ron would concede some power. Of course, that hope gets decimated when I see someone like Hurney or Mayhew get linked to us, as it just has the feel of hiring someone who neither seeks that power nor would anyone else want to give that power to. I hope Ron makes the best decision for himself and the organization, in the end. And I hope people understand that, even though there are major issues with the structure as is and it has an absolute massive rate of failure, I don’t blame Ron himself for it. This is 100% a Dan Snyder problem. All the way. Always has been.