Samuels

A couple things. First, Beal was in a slump trying to adjust to the college game at the start. The college season is short, so statistics are tricky. A normal slump can throw off your numbers for the whole year. I think that's what happened with Beal. If you look at his percentages down the stretch once he was comfortable, they are good, and I think they are a better indicator of his NBA ability.

Second, Beal is a better ball handler than you're giving him credit for. He's not great, but he's not as comically bad as say, Harrison Barnes.

Third, Beal is actually a really really good defender and I think he can be a lockdown perimeter defender at the next level. I think he's one of the best defenders in the class. He's very strong and fast for his size and he's cognizant. He understands help defense and he's got a fantastic motor. He absolutely gets after it. Check out the DX video of him, it's just him bulling through screens and hounding players on the edge and chasing down guys in transition. He brings the hardnosed mentality of a football player to the game. He absolutely will run through a hundred screens a night and never relent.

Fourth, I think Beal's shooting percentages would have been a lot better if Irving Walker wasn't so terrible. It's not like he got to play with Kendall Marshall for instance...

I think Beal is a pretty complete package for an off guard because he can shoot, rebound, and defend. We could keep him on the court for almost all situations and he'd be a very large upgrade over Crawford as a starter. He's a really natural fit.

---------- Post added June-19th-2012 at 02:07 PM ----------

Well defensively, it's a plus he's quick enough to defend other SFs.

But offensively, you've got to play him at PF. He's a 7 footer that can protect the rim and finish but he can't shoot or handle the ball. I think his comfort level is at PF.

I don't have any numbers, but I'd guess he got most of his minutes at PF this year.

The only way you can keep Vesely at SF on offense is by running a lot of plays designed to get him to the rim, or if he develops a nasty post up game that he can use effectively against smaller players.

He actually converts his shots around the basket at a good rate. You have to find a way to keep him close to the rim. To me that says PF, not SF.[/quote

What do u do to create that offense for Mkg then?

Obviously he can score on the break but so can Vesely. He posted up much smaller college sf's basically 2 guards to shoot that jumphook thats not gonna happen in the Nba with guys even bigger and help defense. Mkg's slashing and ballhandling are getting overrated because it only happens on the break. Obviously Mkg is a better prospect but i' m not seeing huge upgrade or a missing piece this team needs.

Vesely is a natural 4.

Barnes's athletic test scores also don't change the fact that he's a plodder. He's fast enough running up and down the floor but he is nowhere near as explosive as Beal or MKG.

Barnes will always look better on paper than a guy like MKG, but he's just not as good, and that's reflected in their team success.

Other then being tall what makes Vesely a Pf?

Because he sure defended Sf's and the perimeter very well showed enough quickness to stay with guys etc. Was very good defending ball screens and his long arms allowed him to disrupt passing lanes. I think he can be a elite defender at Sf. He kinda plays very smart, very hard like someone else.

At Pf he was overpowered and ragdolled way to much. He base is extremely fragile along with his overall frame. He is' nt a rebounder. He is a classic ectomorph and will struggle to gain weight and get stronger.

Impressive...

Wouldn't be surprised if Charlotte takes him #2. Or if we take him.

If were hell bent on a Sf it should be him without a doubt.

Eg shoulda been fired you can' t win games especially playoff games if you can' t make jumpers in the halfcourt.

Eg drafted 2 pitiful shooting Sf's last year who play defense in the first round and might do it again this year with Mkg. And if somebody wants to say Vesely is a 4 i' ll play along because I dont wanna start another debate.

Matthews is a good perimeter defender and he shoots a lot of three pointers, I'll give you that. But he was not good by any stretch last year.

He shot .385 on jumpers last year, .383 on threes, and he attempted 337 of them. He missed a ton of threes man. He also shot .412 overall, which is almost as bad as Crawford. He doesn't get assists, he doesn't rebound, and he had a PER of 14.1. Worst of all he's got almost 7 million per year and three years left on his contract.

You simply can't pay a guy with a 14 PER 7 million a year, much less trade down a top three pick to get him.

If we want a high volume inefficient shooter, just keep Jordan Crawford and let him fire away. Or extend Cartier Martin and get most of what Matthews brings at a fraction of his salary.

38% on 3' s is damn good on this team. His fg% was higher his first 2 years.

But i thought he was on his rookie deal forgot he was a Udfa. For that coin i'd pass as well.

---------- Post added June-19th-2012 at 12:47 PM ----------

Alot of reports saying we love Mkg ughh. Love him as a player but this offense is gonna be a complete joke. You can't build a team around 2 awful shooting perimiter players.

Mathews was horrible last year. I don't really want him even if he was free. We would majorly lose on that deal.

I don't care for that Atlanta deal either.

Matthews is a good player not sure how much you actually watched him. He is right around a 40% 3 point shooter all 3 years in the league and will get you 12-15ppg.

I would call Portland we could probably get Wesley Matthews+# 6 for # 3. At # 6 your still getting a hellva player and Matthews would start day 1.

I'd even consider trading the pick to someone like Atlanta Josh Smith/or Horford+ Marvin Williams,#23 for Rashard+#3. The 3rd pick is'nt likely to be a all star caliber player anyway and your getting 2 legit 25 year old starters and a lower first rounder. Josh Smith is a perfect uptempo PF for Wall to run with, he rebounds and blocks shots at a good rate covering up for Nene. With a legit 2 guard that team could do some damage and the frontline would have alot of depth.

Ray Allen ? Really ? That's terrible at this point.

He was with EG in Milwaukee.

If healthy he is still very effective shooter and a 14-16ppg scorer.

Thats why i'd imagine we would be interested plus vet leadership. It would only be a 1-2 year deal. I doubt he comes here though

I was told this morning that Teddy loves Trob and they'd be shocked if we passed on him.

Mkg' s workout being closed is strange though either they love him or they wanna put off that impression.

Also Ray Allen and Jeff Green Fa targets.

Well probably one or the other is going to Cleveland at 4. Unless they move up for MKG, they'll choose between Beal or Barnes most likely. I don't see them drafting TRob if we pass on him because of Tristan Thompson. I'd actually prefer Cleveland to take Barnes ahead of Beal if the choice is between them at four. Then maybe he'd slide and we could trade up to get him.

Earlier I didn't mean to say that Beal is a great ball handler. He loses his handle a lot too, and is below average by NBA combo guard standards. I just meant that he's better than Barnes in this area. Barnes is is pretty good with the ball in transition but he is not good at all trying to break a defender down in the half court. Beal is better here, keeps his head up, and finds his open teammates a lot better.

Barnes has legit NBA size and strength, lots of shooting skills, I understand why you like him. He'll be a good scorer in the NBA. He definitely has better scoring skills than Beal right now because he's got that huge mid range game. That in and of itself is a novelty that makes him an exciting player because nobody has that any more. Not as a high school player. That's probably why Barnes was so highly ranked as a recruit. Plus he's already starting to develop a nice post game and once he does, he'll be a surefire 20 PPG NBA scorer.

But to me, Beal will be a better player because I think he sees the game better than Barnes does and he plays a lot faster and more intense than Barnes. Barnes is a smooth, graceful athlete but he can plod and look disinterested on the court. Beal is just so explosive and tenacious. He brings the explosiveness and intensity of a football player to the game. He played quarterback and safety growing up and that kind of athletic smarts it takes to do that carried over to BBall IMO. He's a student of the game and he just gets "it." He knows how to do the things that lead to wins. There is no concern with his brand or his numbers or that self absorbed AAU ball mentality you see with so many top H.S. recruits. It's just about finding a way to fit himself into the structure of the team and play good ball to win.

Guys like Beal and MKG make their teams greater than the sum of their parts. I don't think Barnes does nearly to the same extent. That's part of why UNC could be so loaded but never quite live up to expectations with Barnes.

I don't mean to say that Barnes is selfish. I don't get that sense from him. I just think he doesn't see the game as well. He tunnels into his own scoring ability and gets on a one track leading him to take a lot of bad shots/settle for jumpers/try to do too much. I think his intensity and focus waver. I know you saw him doing this in the tourney. He showed off his flaws in that run. He just doesn't process the game as well or as quickly as Beal IMO.

Beal fits a big need. He can be a lockdown perimeter defender, which we need almost as bad as a legit long range shooter and productive off ball scorer. I think you get all of that out of Beal, plus he's a big glue guy that improves our chemistry. No a 6'4 shooting guard that doesn't have a half court ISO game is not typically top 3 value. But Beal is such a good fit for our needs, plus he has good upside, that you have to strongly consider him at three anyway. This is probably an instance where it's better to get the guy who fits exactly what we're looking for even if we have to reach than to take a guy ahead of him that might not fit as well just to get the best value from the pick. The guy who fits will end up being a better player for you than the guy who is a little more talented, but doesn't fit quite as well.

That's me going back to OKC taking James Harden over Tyreke Evans and Stephen Curry. Evans and Curry were bigger talents than Harden, but those guys are too ball dominant and had too much of an alpha scorer mentality to fit with Kevin Love and Russell Westbrook. OKC needed a guy who could thrive with limited touches and wouldn't mind coming off the bench and bringing energy and intensity off the bench. It's probably worked out better for OKC in the end that they took Harden over Evans or Curry.

EDIT: I meant Kevin Durant, not Kevin Love. Easy to see how I'd get them confused as they are so similar :silly:

I'm not gonna keep going back and forth on Beal vs Barnes time will tell.

But I will say this Harden was one of the very best 2 guards i've watched the last 10 years in college basketball. He was better then Tyreke and still is in my opinion. He came in as a freshman and played damn well. As a sophmore he was over 20ppg if my memory serves me correctly and he shot damn near 50%fg both seasons. He was a complete basketball player and played in college just like he does now.

Matter of fact just found his college stats disgusting compared to someone like Beal. That was a legit top 3 talent at 2 guard.

Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG

2008-09 35 35.8 20.1 48.9 35.6 75.6 4.2 5.6 0.3 1.7

2007-08 34 34.1 17.8 52.7 40.7 75.4 3.2 5.3 0.6 2.1

He shot 52%fg and 40%3fg with over 3ast, 5+reb and 2+spg as a true freshman.

Sure. I agree with you. Ernie is absolutely not the manager nor team builder that Presti is. But that doesn't mean we should give up our expectations for creating and utilizing a model of sustainable contention.

The Thunder have created a very visible road map for success for bad organizations that lucked into drafting their own franchise caliber player. We should try our best to copy it.

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 10:07 PM ----------

Let's also not pretend like Beal didn't show off plenty of NBA scoring tools either. I think he's an even better shooter than Barnes mechanically. Beal is rapid whereas Barnes has a very slow release. And he's terrific off the ball and that will definitely translate into scoring in the NBA, great off screens, good finishing in transition, great spotting up behind the 3 point line on the break, and he's definitely quicker and better than Barnes at attacking the rim from the perimeter.

Barnes is a comically bad ball handler after two dribbles.

Beal getting 34 minutes a game as a freshman in a Florida backcourt with lots of upperclassmen is incredibly special, not a knock on him at all. He was the best player on his team from day one.

Beal's rebounding is simply a plus at his position no matter the surrounding situation and I think he's definitely a better rebounder than Barnes. He's grittier, has a higher motor, and has a better BBall IQ than Barnes. He constantly works and boxes out whereas Barnes isn't nearly as cognizant and doesn't hustle like that. Beal looks like he has better hands than Barnes too.

And Beal is a much, much better and more active defender than Barnes. That video shows Beal absolutely battling through those screens and hounding the perimeter. Barnes will never be able to defend like that.

This is where I feel like you're losing sight of the forest through the trees. Barnes has a lot of skills. He had a stacked team surrounding him. So why did he underachieve? I feel like you're ignoring all of the bad you get with Barnes by focusing only on his tangible skills like his array of shots, particularly in comparison to Beal.

Some of those shooting skills are things that Beal himself can learn to do in the NBA. But Barnes isn't suddenly going to have Beal's speed or heart or bball IQ. Barnes is certainly a better scorer with a much better mid range game than Beal (today). But that's just about the only things he has over Beal aside from his length. Beal is a better basketball player overall.

I disagree but we will have to wait and see who gets drafted first and who plays the best. Time will tell.

I already showed you a statistical breakdown of how Beal was a better played in his freshman year than Barnes has been in his 2 seasons. You haven't given one coherent argument other than explaining why Barnes is a better prospect. Do I have to give you the break down again?

---------- Post added June-15th-2012 at 03:16 PM ----------

He is also a FA after 2013, depending on who we draft will let us know if we're going to make a big run at him. As it stands now, I would see OKC paying up to keep him, even if that is near max money.

Stats mean nothing to me honestly,I'm just not a huge stats guy with prospects there was'nt a huge difference anyway and alot of stuff goes into that teammates, system etc. I form my opinions based off years of being around the game and knowing what i'm looking at. Even in the small video scouting breakdowns draft express has done on both, the difference is night and day between a guy like Barnes and Beal offensively.

Watch the draft express breakdown on both players there breakdown of Beal and its what you'll see if you have access to games. Lots of jumpers and very little creating jumpers or NBA type ISO plays. He also played Sf on a team with shotjackers in the backcourt and no frontcourt help that allowed his rebound numbers to be inflated, he did'nt even average that in high school. He also played 34mpg which is alot in college.

Barnes video you will see lots of NBA type ISO's that translate to the pro game. Shooting off the dribble, pump fakes drawing fouls and getting his own shot off of them. He averaged 7 FTA a game those are great signs to being a pro scorer. Barnes also had a stacked team and was still the #1 option for his club both years. He was the defensive focus unlike Beal. He put up 17ppg in under 30mpg both years.

I still think Barnes goes before Beal NBA GM's have access to some of the same games i've watched of these guys. Beal is a good pick in the 5-8 area but is'nt a elite offensive talent the comparisons to Ray Allen are laughable. Even has a freshman Ray Allen was a lights out shooter that would dunk all over you.

Steve, how in the world can you justify taking Beal at #3 thats insanity, you even said so last week.

Honestly for example what does he do better then Barnes?

Rebound? Put him on Unc doubtful. Beal did' nt rebound that well in high school and played Sf this year with shotjacking guards and no legit bigs.

I take all these guys over Beal without hesitation

Davis

Drummond

Barnes

Mkg

Trob

He is' nt a top 3 pick in any draft, period

I really hope OKC of all teams is not the one to trade up to #2. If Charlotte sells off Drummond for James Harden, it's just further proof that contraction is their just desert.

Harden is damn good player on a sorry team he averages 20+ ppg. I'd trade #3 for him in a heartbeat and this team would make the playoffs and have a bright future.

This draft is' nt one for superstars at best your looking best case of drafting a borderline all star like a Harden,Gay, Granger etc.

His dribbling isn't great, but all of that other stuff is for the most part. I still like him too.

Basically, he's a pretty complete player. I like that he's a worker and an overachiever too. That Florida team wasn't that good this year, but they went pretty far and he was the biggest individual reason.

There aren't many ways we could go at three that would make me unhappy. The top six or seven this year is really good.

I think his rebounding won't be that great either 6+. Those rebounding numbers are alittle high because he played Sf this year with shot jackers. He did'nt even rebound that well in high school I think he averaged right at 5 reb. Somebody like Barnes played with a very good frontcourt in Zeller and Henson who ate up alot of rebounds.

The Wizards need to bring in guys like Barnes,MKG, Beal etc together to workout. Beal and Barnes workout for Cleveland saturday.

Ok back to business. Wiz have FA to (Really hope we amnesty Blatche)

How about sign Ersan Ilyasova (spelling) to play SF?

Draft T-Rob for PF

Pray that Will Barton makes it the our 2nd round pick

Wall/Mack

Crawford/Barton

Illyasova/Singleton

T-Rob/Booker

Nene/Seraphin

I dunno

Ersan is stretch 4 and i like Barton but his jumper is shaky.

Just ran across a new Barnes video scouting report on draft express. I cant copy it from my phone can someone else link it.

That is a good breakdown of what I saw. Even in the negatives those are typical Nba jumpers. He needs to work on creating for others but so do others at 19 this kid will be very good.

There is 0 Calbert Cheaney in his game. Look at all the Nba Iso's in that video step back, pump fakes etc.

Because Durant was never on a team with the 3rd worst record in the NBA. Dwyane Wade was never on the worst team in the league. Paul Pierce was never on the 2nd worst team in the league. Ray Allen on a team that won the lottery. Joe Johnson on the 3rd worst. Tracy McGrady on THE worst. Stephon Marbury, 5th worst. Sprewell, 4th worst. Calbet Cheany, 2nd worst. Grant Hill, 5th worst. Patrick Ewing, 2nd worst. Patrick Ewing, THE worst. Dominique Wilkins, 5th worst. Bernard King, 3rd worst. Ralph Sampson, 4th worst. So on and so forth.

Does anyone else agree with Steve, that Kevin Love is NOT a star?

In my eyes Love is a monster double double machine. I' d take him over just about every Pf in the league.

---------- Post added June-14th-2012 at 03:13 PM ----------

Wouldn't that leave us with Batum, Barnes, Singleton, and Vesely all at the small forward position? If you get Barnes trying to sign Batum would be questionable.

Batum plays 2 guard alot with Wesley Matthews at the 3.

I honestly think Barnes can guard 2 guards very underrated defender

Barnes is so damn stiff.

This team needs a great talent, not another piece. We are garbage, lol.

Barnes and his stiff hips is another Calbert Cheany.

I dont see Calbert at all and i loved Calbert when he was young.

Barnes will be better then Beal,Trob and Mkg.

The more I watch Barnes the more I love him. Reminds me of a Glen Rice/ Steve Smith cross. The kid can defend and when solely watching him he is impressive. Some team is gonna get a good Nba scorer and defender. He is actually damn good creating space off the dribble for his jumper very surprising lots of Nba type Iso's he scores on. He does' nt get to the rim off the dribble but you can tell its because he loves his jumper and settles alot.He gets to the FT line at a good clip another great sign. I think with all the hype in high school he is getting nitpicked. He is the perfect fit on this team with a guy like Wall. He will only improve at 19 and just learning to play wing after being a big the sky is the limit.

Barnes is my #1 option for this team think he is cant miss.

John Jenkins/ Doron Lamb at 32

Machado at 45

I do backflips and like this team without any free agent moves. You add Batum its a playoff team.

OK people need to wake up and realize how terrible Sullinger will be at the next level. He may be the most skilled big man in the draft, but he will be an AWFUL defensive liability. His lane agility is on par with Brendan Freaking Haywood. You can't possibly twist the fact he won't be able to keep up with PFs in the NBA let alone rotate quickly enough to provide any sort of weak side help. Robinson has shown he has some post moves, and I don't see why he won't improve. Robinson's jump shot doesn't even look all that bad, if Booker can improve as much as he did, I don't see why anyone would doubt Robinson could. We've already seen how woeful Sullinger performs when confronted with NBA size as the match against Kansas clearly demonstrates. Sully may be a decent big man off the bench, but he has NO potential to be a starter in this league. At least T-rob has that going for him.

Never said Mkg played Pf. I said he played like a Pf in college posting up smaller Sf' s basically 2 guards shooting his baby hook.

People can doubt Sully all they want we'll see.

What is Barnes shooting percentages i' d bet Beals are' nt better then either of Barnes seasons. Thats without looking so i could be wrong. But spotting up Barnes is deadly.

It is. You're absolutely right here. Barnes's crazy combine numbers make it easier to justify reaching for him ahead of the other big names at the top.

Barnes isn't a better player than MKG though. He might have better shooting skills and better athletic test numbers but he's not a better player. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world taking him at three. We'd be filling a need with a good player who is a true fit at SF. But I'm with you, I don't think it'd be getting the most out of our pick. I want to grab the guy with higher upside, there is no doubt in my mind that's MKG.

I'm with you here. But I'd say Barnes also projects as a solid defender, great finisher, and solid rebounder for his position. He can't pass for crap and his handles are subpar. But he should at least be complete enough to play decent defense and rebound in addition to having that wide repertoire of shots.

MKG looks like a far more complete player. To me his only significant downside is his shooting skills. The handles, passing, defending, finishing, and rebounding all look outstanding, all look significantly better than Barnes. Plus MKG seems intangibly superior to Barnes. He's a winner and overachiever and Barnes was an underachiever, plain and simple. If Barnes had MKG's heart and BBall IQ he would be the next Durant.

I look at our team and think it's still in a very raw form right now. I look at OKC as the model to follow given how good they've become, so quickly too. We need a second star and that guy is going to have to come from the draft. As a general strategy, we should go for upside until we get one, then once that foundation is in place, you fill the roster out with lesser players to fit the array of short term needs.

In other words, you can settle for a James Harden over Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry after you draft your Durant and Westbrook.

I think you go for one of the blue chippers at three. Barnes is not in the same caliber as Drummond, Robinson, and Gilchrist. I can understand the arguments against Drummond because of how shaky he looked last season and how far away he is. But if not him, I think the pick has to be Robinson or Gilchrist.

My views have nothing to do with combine results. I like a consistent body of work which is why I like Sully over Trob. People can't judge Barnes based on the last few games its a body of work.

Here is what I saw in going back

Mkg plays like a Pf in college lots of postups on smaller college Sf's shooting lots of hook shots. Thats not gonna happen in the Nba againest longer Sf's. He is weak as heck to be 230+ and do 6 reps its pitiful at that weight not that it means alot but he wont be a bully on the block. His ballhandling is over rated and he very rarely created off the dribble. Most of his buckets came running the break or posting up.He plays hard and is a good defender but nowhere near what Singleton was at Fsu and we see how that translated although I think he turns it around with a full camp. Mkg will play defense, play hard, rebound and finish on the break and thats about it until he develops a jumpshot. The kid only averaged 20ppg playing in high school.

With Barnes what you see is what you get. I think he is a 17-20ppg 5-6 reb Nba player. He plays good defense,posses protypical Sf size and is flatout deadly with his feet set especially on the break. He is a good finisher on the break and a decent rebounder. He hit alot of shots off the dribble but don' t beat many to the rim. He is a perfect fit with a Pg like Wall to get him wide open jumpers. He should continue to improve after being a bigman most of his life.

Sully vs Trob

Trob scares me the most he will be boom or bust. He could' nt sniff the court his first 2 seasons or even get more then 10 min per game. The Morris twins are' nt anything special proving that this year. If your a special elite talent they find a spot for you. Not only that but his To' s are very high for a bigman even in limited minutes the previous seasons. What he is though this year was a bulldog outhustling guys playing hard.

When I compare Sully and Trob to me its skill vs athletism. Both struggle with lenght, both play good post man defense but dont defend the rim. Both are good rebounders. But Sully is advanced offensively a very skilled, smart player. He knows when to screen& roll, has array of post moves with excellent footwork. He has developed a nice 3 pt shot and is deadly from the highpost pick and pop game. He showed his work ethic losing weight but he wont wow anyone with his physique or athlethism. Trob seems to be the type that will run the floor, get putbacks ans stick a elbow jumpers but not a offensive creater at all on the block like Sully. If he can' t rebound the same way as college and we' ve seen it before with dominant guys like Beasley he will be a bust and 1 year wonder.

1.) Davis

2.) Drummond

3.) MKG

4.) TRob

5.) Barnes

6.) Beal

7.) Sully

That's the best top seven I can ever remember following. I could see all seven of those guys becoming good starters.

Beyond that, the top twenty in this year's class is awesome. There will be playoff teams adding some good players this year.

My new rankings after watching more of the top prospects.

#1 Davis

#2 Drummond

#3 Barnes

#4 MKG

#5 Sully

#6 TRob

#7 Lamb

#8 Beal

#9 Lilliard

#10 Rivers

Damn those are some good numbers. I think Beal surprised some folks with his hops. 39 is a lot more than I expected and I'd been saying his athleticism is underrated.

Go over to Dx all results are posted.

Barnes had a freakish standing vertical and the fastest 3/4 court sprint.

Mkg did 6 reps

Someone posted a WoJo tweet from last year when Barnes was matched up with Durant the scout said thats your #1 pick. But times change and people look for reason to knock a overhyped guy like Barnes down.

Damn Barnes with a 39.5 vertical. He is gonna be the one teams regret not picking been nitpicked way to much from the hype. Put up good numbers both years in under 30mpg.

Beal 39" vertical

Mkg-35.5"