A return to running game?

[darrelgreenie]

We can't be afraid to run the ball, but I think we've been too predictable about WHEN we run the ball. Against the NYG, it seemed that we ran the ball on 1st down pretty much every time, got ourselves in 3rd & long, and either threw incomplete or came up short of the marker. Considering who we're playing next week, I think we should throw on 1st down most of the time, and mix in runs on the later downs.

I thought we had a decent mix of run/pass on 1st down.

I think we'll need to run on 1st down early in game to set up the 1st down pass later.

Maybe some more play action on 1st down would mix it up.

Then we need to run on 2nd down to get into 3rd and manageable.

Then we need to surprise them with a toss-sweep or fake slant draw on 3rd down.

We will beat the freakin Ravens!

[redskins55]

We need to revert back to passing to open up the run game....

Exactly!!! Our rushing yards come at the end of game when we are running the clock out. We have to establish the passing game to free up the box to allow the running lanes. Look what the Giants did to us last week. WE basically stopped their run until Eli picked our secondary apart. We have to be more accurate and consistent in our passing game in order to have a effective running game.

[Chiefinonhaze]

I don't think we're intentionally abandoning the running game. I think that in the 3 games we've lost recently we've tried to run the ball as long as we can. Unfortunately we haven't had much success with it in those 3 games and we reached a point where we had fallen behind and had to throw more. The low carries for Portis aren't a result so much of getting away from the running game, it's more a result of not sustaining drives and having a low play count overall.

Exactly, we haven't gotten the run going at all in the past few games. We have tried early in the game, but once your down 13-0 like we were against the Giants, you have to abandon it. We haven't gotten the run going, and we almost always have 3rd and 8. If we were in more 3rd and 3 situations, you would definitly see us run three times in a row.

I think this is our biggest problem. We cannot pass well with a "stacked box". This is the key to opening up the running game. Remember when Portis had those 5 games in a row of 120 yards or more...? Then, all of a sudden, Portis was getting stopped. This is partly due to him being dinged up, but it is also a result of defenses stacking the box.

To beat the Ravens, we HAVE to throw early and often. Maybe do a few swing passes to get Campbell in a rythm. This will get that 7th, 8th defender out of the box, and Portis will break off those 20 yard runs:2cents:

[darrelgreenie]

We need to revert back to passing to open up the run game....

When did we pass to set-up the run?

I can't think of 1 game where that has been true. And recently our passing game has been ineffective.

IMO we've wasted 1st downs with incomplete passes when we could have just ran the ball for some positive yards.

How do you pass to set-up the run with an ineffective passing game?

Exactly!!! Our rushing yards come at the end of game when we are running the clock out. We have to establish the passing game to free up the box to allow the running lanes. Look what the Giants did to us last week. WE basically stopped their run until Eli picked our secondary apart. We have to be more accurate and consistent in our passing game in order to have a effective running game.

:doh:I don't understand? We've relied on the run the ball all season bro. Except for the loses the running game has carried us throughout the game.

You guys are making it seem like we come out passing then run the ball to finish games.

But the truth is the running game has carried us, its sets-up our play-action and 1st down runs early in game opens up 1st down passing later in games.

The Giants game is a good example.

Our passing game was ineffective.

We didn't throw the ball deep and the short passing game was shut down and Jason got sacked 4 times.

I would be all for the passing but we have a short passing game and it isn't very effective when teams don't respect the long ball.

9:56, (1st play from scrimmage 9:48)

1-10-WAS 39 (9:48) J.Campbell pass incomplete short right to S.Moss

2-10-WAS 39 (9:45) C.Portis right guard to WAS 40 for 1 yard

3-9-WAS 40 (9:09) (Shotgun) J.Campbell pass short left to C.Cooley to WAS 46 for 6 yards (K.Phillips).

^^Ineffective series

Washington Redskins at 2:11

1-10-WAS 23 (2:11) C.Portis left tackle to WAS 28 for 5 yards**

^^8 man front

2-5-WAS 28 (1:37) J.Campbell (Play-Action Bootleg) pass short right to C.Cooley to WAS 34 for 6 yards

1-10-WAS 34 (1:04) J.Campbell (Play-action) pass deep left to S.Moss pushed ob at NYG 43 for 23 yards (M.Johnson). P2

20+ Yards Passing

1-10-NYG 43 (:31) J.Campbell pass incomplete deep middle to S.Moss

2-10-NYG 43 (:25) C.Portis right tackle to NYG 45 for -2 yards (quirky pump fake hand-off run that got stuffed)

3-12-NYG 45 (15:00) (Shotgun) J.Campbell pass incomplete short right to A.Randle El.

Washington Redskins at 12:01, (1st play from scrimmage 11:53)

1-10-WAS 43 (11:53) C.Portis left tackle to WAS 48 for 5 yards

2-5-WAS 48 (11:17) J.Campbell sacked at WAS 40 for -8 yards

3-12-WAS 41 (10:33) J.Campbell pass short right to C.Portis to NYG 44 for 15 yards

1-10-NYG 44 (10:05) J.Campbell pass short middle to L.Betts to NYG 36 for 8 yards

2-2-NYG 36 (9:28) L.Betts left end to NYG 33 for 3 yards (B.Cofield). R4

1-10-NYG 33 (8:48) J.Campbell pass short right intended for S.Moss

PENALTY on NYG-C.Webster, Illegal Use of Hands, 4 yards, enforced at NYG 33 - No Play. X5

1-10-NYG 29 (8:40) D.Thomas right end for 29 yards, TOUCHDOWN. R6 (DT reverse- takes hand off from Betts off a edge run)

15+ Yards Rushing

I see a effective run game that sets-up good play-action and misdirection.

What do you see?

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think we're intentionally abandoning the running game. I think that in the 3 games we've lost recently we've tried to run the ball as long as we can. Unfortunately we haven't had much success with it in those 3 games and we reached a point where we had fallen behind and had to throw more. The low carries for Portis aren't a result so much of getting away from the running game, it's more a result of not sustaining drives and having a low play count overall.

You're right we did run the ball a little in our recent losses but we weren't committed to running.

I don't think its accurate to say that we weren't haven't success running the ball.

In the first half of those games Portis had decent numbers and was making decent gains.

1st half vs the Cowboys C.Portis 9 rushes for 37 w/ 4.1 avg. But in that game we came out passing:

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29686/WAS_Gamebook.pdf

1st half vs the Steelers C.Portis 9 rushes for 36 w/ 4.0 avg. The 1st series we got stuffed on 2 runs the next series was incomplete pass, complete pass 5 yards, incomplete pass then field goal.

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29657/WAS_Gamebook.pdf

^^take a look for yourself the run wasn't getting stuffed we just didn't stick with it.

We did fall behind in the second halves of those games, but it wasn't far enough behind to abondon the run. I know i keep bringing this up but in the Eagles game we were down 14 points!! and we still ran the ball. 14 points is a larger margin then in any of the loses when we supposedly had to abondoned the run.

I agree that the inability to sustain drives does limit the carries.

[darrelgreenie]

but once your down 13-0 like we were against the Giants, you have to abandon it.

Like when we were down 14 points to the Eagles?

This is partly due to him being dinged up, but it is also a result of defenses stacking the box.

We've been running the ball effectively against a stacked box all season.

To beat the Ravens, we HAVE to throw early and often. Maybe do a few swing passes to get Campbell in a rythm. This will get that 7th, 8th defender out of the box, and Portis will break off those 20 yard runs:2cents:

I agree that passes to the backs will help.

But the only way to get the 7th and 8th defenders out of the box is to complete throws downfield and we need play action to do that.

Pure drop back passing hasn't worked for us yet why would it start now?

[Cooley4President]

I think that there's a misconception on this board that we score points by pounding the ball. I think if you were to examine our gaudy rushing stats from the games we won, you'd find that a good chunk of those yards came in the 4th quarter after we had a lead and we were milking the clock. In fact that's what I'll remember most about games like the Cowboys and Eagles games earlier in the season, Portis tearing it up in the final quarter and our offense just keeping the ball away from them in the final minutes.

I'll bet if you look at our run/pass splits early in most games they would all pretty much synch up. The reason we're perceived as "abandoning the run" in losses is because we aren't successful early and therefore can't take the air out of the late in the 4th quarter and pile up rushes/yards.

Of course I have no statistical basis for this reasoning because I don't have the time to do the research right now, so fire away.

EDIT:

OK, I found some stats that may help my argument (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=3579)

Portis by Quarter:

1st 64 rushes for 245, 3.8 YPC

2nd 66 rushes for 291, 4.4 YPC

3rd 61 rushes for 330, 5.4 YPC

4th 64 rushes for 362, 5.7 YPC

As you can see, the total rushes are almost identical by quarter, but the YPC varies drastically. And we know the Skins haven't won many of their 7 games by scoring in the 4th quarter when Portis is running at a 5.7 clip (in fact the comeback in the Saints game was on the strength of a 300+ yard day from Campbell).

[darrelgreenie]

Cooley4President you're making a bunch of different points in this posts. The main point of the OP was:

The majority of our victories have come behind heavy doses of Kid Bro Sweets and the running game.

Maybe the solution to the struggling passing game and the anemic offense is to re-commit to the run?.............

Commit ourselves to the run.

Run the ball, run the ball and run the ball some more.... like we used to.

Then, maybe the passing game can get going with some play-action and bootlegs and roll-outs?

I think that there's a misconception on this board that we score points by pounding the ball.

If that misconception exists i'm not a part of it b/c we don't score points! I'm saying this: we have an effective offense when we stick with the run.

IMO the misconception is that we should have abandoned the run in any of our loses. BTW the following stats are from ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=3579

Rushing Attempts:

Ahead-83

Behind-107

Tied- 63

This stat show that this year we've run the ball more when we are behind. Therefore it was actually AGAINST our nature to abandon the run.

(e.g.)>>The Eagles were the No.1 run D and we were down 14 points

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b5e8ba

I think if you were to examine our gaudy rushing stats from the games we won, you'd find that a good chunk of those yards came in the 4th quarter after we had a lead and we were milking the clock.

Thanks for the stats, it supports my point. While the # numbers of carries varies slightly by qtr it shows an increase in YPC each qtr. Thus reinforceing the notion to stick with the run.

I'll bet if you look at our run/pass splits early in most games they would all pretty much synch up. The reason we're perceived as "abandoning the run" in losses is because we aren't successful early and therefore can't take the air out of the late in the 4th quarter and pile up rushes/yards.

This is where i disagree. If you look at the run pass balance early in the losses it leans more towards the pass then the run. And the running game has been successful.

Of course I have no statistical basis for this reasoning because I don't have the time to do the research right now, so fire away.

If you get a chance look at the play-by-play and the 1st half rushing numbers with a focus on: 1st down rushing vs 1st down passing/ distance of 3rd down after 1st down run vs. 1st down pass/ and distance of 3rd down following back to back runs

Good discussion

Steelers: http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29657/WAS_Gamebook.pdf

Cowboys:

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29686/WAS_Gamebook.pdf

Giants:

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29714/WAS_Gamebook.pdf