10 Years of War with Iraq

[Mad Mike]

I really don t care if you use the same tired old links that reach in trying to paint a silly threat from a country that was lucky to have a few fighter jets in the air let alone attack us with weapons they didn't even have.

It will take a lot more evidence to prove to this former hard core supporter of the Iraq war, that it was worth spending nearly a trillion dollars of our tax dollars for it. Sorry, but once in a while we have to admit we were wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence. I know that its hard to have that courage because I fought it for years too.

And you STILL haven't addressed Paul's lies.

Fighter jet's? Now you want to try to switch the argument to fighter jets? Bin Laden didn't have any fighter jets either genius. THIS IS ABOUT TERRORISM and IT IS NOW PROVEN that Saddam RECRUITED, TRAINED, and SUPPORTED massive numbers of terrorists and used them against the US.

You live in a fantasy land dude. You need some serious de-programming. :doh:

[SnyderShrugged]

Mike, please outline these specific lies for me. I don't see any

[Chief skin]

Iraq was and continues to be a huge and costly mistake to our country

[Mad Mike]

Mike, please outline these specific lies for me. I don't see any

the war has been helpful to our enemies. The war has strengthened Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and Iran.

There is ZERO evidence to back any of this up. ZERO.

In fact, I have posted captured al Qaeda letters that show that they are suffering and that Iraq has actually become a quagmire for them. Muslims are now fighting against al Qaeda because Al Qaeda has been targeting muslim civilians in Iraq.

Al-Qaeda leaders admit: 'We are in crisis. There is panic and fear'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3346386.ece

Al-Qaeda in Iraq faces an “extraordinary crisis”. Last year's mass defection of ordinary Sunnis from al-Qaeda to the US military “created panic, fear and the unwillingness to fight”. The terrorist group's security structure suffered “total collapse”.

These are the words not of al-Qaeda's enemies but of one of its own leaders in Anbar province — once the group's stronghold. They were set down last summer in a 39-page letter seized during a US raid on an al-Qaeda base near Samarra in November.

The Anbar letter conceded that the “crusaders” — Americans — had gained the upper hand by persuading ordinary Sunnis that al-Qaeda was responsible for their suffering and by exploiting their poverty to entice them into the security forces. Al-Qaeda's “Islamic State of Iraq is faced with an extraordinary crisis, especially in al-Anbar”, the unnamed emir admitted.

In an apparent reference to al-Qaeda's brutal tactics, he said of the Americans and their Sunni allies: “We helped them to unite against us . . . The Americans and the apostates launched their campaigns against us and we found ourselves in a circle not being able to move, organise or conduct our operations.”

[SnyderShrugged]

Mike, I'm on the road on a blackberry. I'll respond in detail later this evening. I will prove paul did not lie

[Coltsfan in VA]

Ron Paul is a moron and he is making **** up. Bin laden is stronger? Al Qaeda is stronger? Iran is stronger? Because of Iraq? The guy will say anything. He's a loon. I cant believe ANYONE would take him seriously.

And I'm going to keep beating this horse till hell freezes over. Is Saddam someone you want in power for the next 20-50 years? How many terrorist would he push through his camps in that time.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

Ron Paul can kiss my...

Well it looks the U.S. intelligence has said the same thing

Despite large-scale US efforts to capture and kill fugitive leader Osama bin Laden after driving his organization from Afghanistan six years ago, the report concludes, Al Qaeda remains an elusive, resilient organization that has rebuilt itself. It has joined forces with other like-minded groups and has used the US invasion of Iraq to recruit and train disaffected Muslims.

Link

I guess the NIE is also a loon.

[SnyderShrugged]

Thanks coltsfan! That was one point I was going to reference later too. So much for mikes "zero evidence". Huh? Lol

[Coltsfan in VA]

Thanks coltsfan! That was one point I was going to reference later too. So much for mikes "zero evidence". Huh? Lol

No problem.

Off-topic: What is going on with Ron Paul? DO you have any idea why he pretty much quit after Super Tuesday?

[Mad Mike]

Well it looks the U.S. intelligence has said the same thing

Link

I guess the NIE is also a loon.

Um Not sure what language you are reading but in the english language. It does not in any way, shape, or form say that al Qaeda or bin laden have gotten stronger because we attacked Iraq. Is he recruiting more than before we invaded? I must have missed that part.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/hl928.cfm

Bin Laden undoubtedly sought to provoke an American invasion of Afghanistan that would allow him to reassume his 1980s role as a glamorous resistance leader and galvanize support from the Muslim world. But bin Laden underestimated the United States, which did not fight wars the same ponderous way that his Soviet foes did. Moreover, bin Laden overestimated his own support in Afghanistan and elsewhere. After chafing under the harsh rule of the Taliban, whose radical Islamic ideology clashed with the tolerant traditional Islam of the Afghan countryside, many Afghans chose to fight against bin Laden and his Taliban allies.

In addition to the forces deployed to Afghanistan, the United States and its allies have waged a grinding war of attrition against al-Qaeda elsewhere in the world. More than three-quarters of al-Qaeda's known pre-9/11 leaders have been captured or killed. These include: Mohammed Atef, al-Qaeda's senior field commander, killed in a bombing raid in Afghanistan; Abu Zubaida, Atef's replacement as field commander, captured in Pakistan; Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of the September 11 attacks, captured in Pakistan; Ramzi Binalshibh, a coordinator of the September 11 attacks, captured in Pakistan; Hambali, a top strategist for al-Qaeda's affiliated group, Jemaah Islamiah, captured in Thailand; and Hamzah al-Rabbiyah al-Masri, a key operational leader killed in Pakistan. More than 4,000 suspected al-Qaeda members have been arrested worldwide since September 11, 2001. Al-Qaeda cells have been uncovered, dismantled, and disrupted in Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. More than $140 million of its assets have been blocked in over 1,400 bank accounts worldwide.

Al-Qaeda remains a potent threat to the United States, its allies, and a wide variety of other states. But al-Qaeda's leaders increasingly must focus on their own personal security and have less time for plotting mass murder. It is more difficult for bin Laden and his lieutenants to recruit new members, train them, communicate with them, or carry out new operations.

Captured al Qaeda Documents Detail Shift in Support

http://www.sofmag.com/news/permalink/2008/2/11/115910.html

The letter delivers a pessimistic assessment of al Qaeda’s long-term prospects in Anbar, and even recommends that remaining foreign fighters there be moved to other areas of Iraq, where they might have greater freedom of action. The author states that security gains in the region had paralyzed many al Qaeda operatives, making it difficult to carry weapons and to wear suicide belts.

He also wrote that foreign terrorists became disillusioned and disgruntled after arriving in Anbar, and many were asking for new assignments or to be allowed to return to their home countries.

[SnyderShrugged]

I don't believe that Coltsfan is having any trouble at all understanding english Mike. In fact, as I said, there is overwhelming evidence that supports precisely what Paul said in his press release. You claimed that he "lied" and that there was ZERO evidence to support his statement. These links were just a pimple on the arse of the vast amount of evidence to the contrary.

You were wrong and I will humbly accept your apology when you are ready to have the intellectual courage to admit your misguided statement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6294526.stm

"Al-Qaeda's operating capabilities are at their strongest level since the 11 September 2001 attacks"

"Al-Qaeda is "considerably operationally stronger than a year ago" and has "regrouped to an extent not seen since 2001," an official said, paraphrasing the report.

"They are showing greater and greater ability to plan attacks in Europe and the United States."

""We see more training. We see more money. We see more communications. We see that activity rising," John Kringen

Senior CIA official

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070501faessay86304/bruce-riedel/al-qaeda-strikes-back.html

Summary: By rushing into Iraq instead of finishing off the hunt for Osama bin Laden, Washington has unwittingly helped its enemies: al Qaeda has more bases, more partners, and more followers today than it did on the eve of 9/11. Now the group is working to set up networks in the Middle East and Africa -- and may even try to lure the United States into a war with Iran.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-07-17-intelligence-estimate_N.htm

"President Bush acknowledged that al-Qaeda has grown "stronger" but said it isn't as strong as it was before it launched the 9/11 attacks"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7293689.stm

"Ironically it is Iran, with which the US shares a mutual hostility, that has emerged with greater strength, to the concern of the Gulf Arab states"

NIE report

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/documents/terrorism/keyjudgments_092606.pdf

"Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body

of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists,

although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and

geographic dispersion."

• If this trend continues, threats to US interests at home and abroad will become

more diverse, leading to increasing attacks worldwide.

•We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and

operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

• The Iraq conflict has become the cause celebre for jihadists, breeding a deep

resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for

the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves,

and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry

on the fight.

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its

vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.

• Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1)

Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western

domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the

Iraq jihad; (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and

political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US

sentiment among most Muslimsall of which jihadists exploit.

"Al-Qa’ida, now merged with Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi’s network, is exploiting the

situation in Iraq to attract new recruits and donors and to maintain its leadership role."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/world/middleeast/24terror.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks."

"An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology.

The report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one American intelligence official. "

2007 NIE report

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/documents/nie020207.pdf

"Many Sunni Arabs remain unwilling to accept their minority status, believe the central government is illegitimate and incompetent, and are convinced that Shia dominance will increase Iranian influence over Iraq, in ways that erode the state’s Arab character and increase Sunni repression."

•The estimate’s judgments confirm some predictions of a National Intelligence Council report completed in January 2003, two months before the Iraq invasion. That report stated that the approaching war had the potential to increase support for political Islam worldwide and could increase support for some terrorist objectives.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/07/21/iran/

"Jaafari's visit was a blow to the Bush administration's strategic vision, but a sweet triumph for political Shiism. In the dark days of 1982, Tehran was swarming with Iraqi Shiite expatriates who had been forced to flee Saddam Hussein's death decree against them. They had been forced abroad, to a country with which Iraq was then at war. Ayatollah Khomeini, the newly installed theocrat of Iran, pressured the expatriates to form an umbrella organization, the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), which he hoped would eventually take over Iraq. Among its members were Jaafari and Abdul Aziz al-Hakim. On Jan. 30, 2005, Khomeini's dream finally came true, courtesy of the Bush administration, when the Supreme Council and the Dawa Party won the Iraqi elections. "

"Iraq has a Shiite Muslim majority of some 62 percent. Iran's Shiite majority is thought to be closer to 90 percent. The Shiites of the two countries have had a special relationship for over a millennium. Saddam had sealed the border for more than two decades, but throughout centuries, tens of thousands of Iranians have come on pilgrimage to the holy Shiite shrines of Najaf and Karbala every year. Iraqis likewise go to Iran for pilgrimage, study and trade. Although neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz maintained before the Iraq war that Iraqis are more secular and less interested in an Islamic state than Iranians, in fact the ideas of Khomeini had had a deep impact among Iraqi Shiites. When they could vote in January earlier this year, they put the Khomeini-influenced Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq in control of seven of the nine southern provinces, along with Baghdad itself.

...

[SnyderShrugged]

No problem.

Off-topic: What is going on with Ron Paul? DO you have any idea why he pretty much quit after Super Tuesday?

sorry man, I accidentally missed this question..

While he is definitely still in the race as the "other" remaining GOP candidate, I think he saw what most of his supporters saw, that winning the Nomination was too big of a hurdle.

Now he is simply trying to add to the GOP platform by pushing for traditional Republican and conservative values.

I firmly believe that an Indy run is out of the question, but I would certainly vote for him regardless.

[mardi gras skin]

I don't think Mass is the one being absurd.

wow. never thought I'd read that.

[SnyderShrugged]

Oh well, I know you read it mike. Didn't care to hold onto the "he lied" comment huh?