GSF Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 OK, I know a lot of you Star Wars guys are really high on Ep. III, but if you ask me, Lucas shot the pooch on this one even worse than he did in the first 2. I also don't believe that this will be the last Star Wars movie, so maybe Spielberg can rescue the series. A few points on how Lucas blew it: 1. My biggest problem with this movie was Lucas spent 2.5 movies encouraging kids to be rooting for Annakin, and then all of the sudden he's slaughtering children. The transition from good to evil was way too easy and made no sense. As someone said in the other thread, 1 minute he's screaming "what have I done", and the next minute he's killing kids. How are young people suposed to process this? Darth Vader toys have filled the shelves at the toy stores for months (my kids have the helmut and the light sabre), and I don't think kids were prepared for what they saw. I would be ok with it if kids had a chance to see Vader redeem himself later in another movie, but ending the entire series (supposedly) this way was just poor taste IMO. I guess Lucas is hoping that parents will run out and buy the DVDs from the first 3 episodes so that kids can see how it finally ends. 2. Suspense. This movie had none. Remember in the first movies the sense of dread that was created in knowing that there was no hiding from Vader? The light saber battle between Luke and Vader on the cloud city when Luke could hear Vader but not see him, or when Luke had to face Vader in the cave on Yoda's planet. How about the scene where they fell in the trash compactor in Ep. I. These were highly suspenseful, edge of your seat type scenes. The sequels were filled with those kinds of scenes, but that type of suspense was never really achieved in the prequels. 3. The fight scenes. Sure the special effects were great, but most of the choreography was lousy. It was hard to see what was going on in most of the light saber battles b/c the cameras were too close, and Yoda's battle scenes looked too cartoonish, just like they did in Ep II. The only battle scene in any of the prequels on par with those from the sequels was the fight in the end of Ep I between Darth Maul and Obe one and Qui Gon. I actuall loved that scene and thought it was every bit as good as the battles from the sequels. The rest of the light saber battles from the prequels were very forgetable IMO. 4. The storyline. Someone explain to me how Padwe went from not showing to having a baby in what appeared to be a few weeks. Also, if Annakin has such strong Jedi powers, how was he so easily duped by the Sith? How was it that none of the Jedi sensed the Sith? I'm sure some of you more knowledgable star Wars fans can answer these questions, but to the semi casual fan like me, there was a lot of stuff that just didn't make much sense. Overall, I guess I somewhat enjoyed the movie. The effects were awesome, and it was cool to see how Vader was created. The movie did answer some questions, but for me it just wasn't that good. I don't see how any of you can put it up there with the originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Originally posted by GSF OK, I know a lot of you Star Wars guys are really high on Ep. III, but if you ask me, Lucas shot the pooch on this one even worse than he did in the first 2. I also don't believe that this will be the last Star Wars movie, so maybe Spielberg can rescue the series. A few points on how Lucas blew it: 1. My biggest problem with this movie was Lucas spent 2.5 movies encouraging kids to be rooting for Annakin, and then all of the sudden he's slaughtering children. The transition from good to evil was way too easy and made no sense. As someone said in the other thread, 1 minute he's screaming "what have I done", and the next minute he's killing kids. How are young people suposed to process this? Darth Vader toys have filled the shelves at the toy stores for months (my kids have the helmut and the light sabre), and I don't think kids were prepared for what they saw. I would be ok with it if kids had a chance to see Vader redeem himself later in another movie, but ending the entire series (supposedly) this way was just poor taste IMO. I guess Lucas is hoping that parents will run out and buy the DVDs from the first 3 episodes so that kids can see how it finally ends. 2. Suspense. This movie had none. Remember in the first movies the sense of dread that was created in knowing that there was no hiding from Vader? The light saber battle between Luke and Vader on the cloud city when Luke could hear Vader but not see him, or when Luke had to face Vader in the cave on Yoda's planet. How about the scene where they fell in the trash compactor in Ep. I. These were highly suspenseful, edge of your seat type scenes. The sequels were filled with those kinds of scenes, but that type of suspense was never really achieved in the prequels. 3. The fight scenes. Sure the special effects were great, but most of the choreography was lousy. It was hard to see what was going on in most of the light saber battles b/c the cameras were too close, and Yoda's battle scenes looked too cartoonish, just like they did in Ep II. The only battle scene in any of the prequels on par with those from the sequels was the fight in the end of Ep I between Darth Maul and Obe one and Qui Gon. I actuall loved that scene and thought it was every bit as good as the battles from the sequels. The rest of the light saber battles from the prequels were very forgetable IMO. 4. The storyline. Someone explain to me how Padwe went from not showing to having a baby in what appeared to be a few weeks. Also, if Annakin has such strong Jedi powers, how was he so easily duped by the Sith? How was it that none of the Jedi sensed the Sith? I'm sure some of you more knowledgable star Wars fans can answer these questions, but to the semi casual fan like me, there was a lot of stuff that just didn't make much sense. Overall, I guess I somewhat enjoyed the movie. The effects were awesome, and it was cool to see how Vader was created. The movie did answer some questions, but for me it just wasn't that good. I don't see how any of you can put it up there with the originals. I don't think there will be another and I don't really want there to be. Harrison Ford might be able to play General Solo if they filmed VII-IX, but he won't pull off a young Han busting Chewie loose. I definitely don't want some random actor playing Solo. I agree with you about the suspense and about Padme. I even leaned over to my friend during the movie and whispered, "Doesn't it look like she's getting more pregnant by the day?" Maybe it was just the camera angles or something, but it did look odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 it's a galaxy far far away, maybe pregnancies aren't the 9 months that they are here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Spielberg actually DID direct parts of EP III... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvoSkins Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 1. My biggest problem with this movie was Lucas spent 2.5 movies encouraging kids to be rooting for Annakin, and then all of the sudden he's slaughtering children. The transition from good to evil was way too easy and made no sense. As someone said in the other thread, 1 minute he's screaming "what have I done", and the next minute he's killing kids. How are young people suposed to process this? Darth Vader toys have filled the shelves at the toy stores for months (my kids have the helmut and the light sabre), and I don't think kids were prepared for what they saw. I would be ok with it if kids had a chance to see Vader redeem himself later in another movie, but ending the entire series (supposedly) this way was just poor taste IMO. I guess Lucas is hoping that parents will run out and buy the DVDs from the first 3 episodes so that kids can see how it finally ends. The transition from Anakin to Vader was not a secret. Everyone knows, or should have known, that Anakin has a fall from grace and becomes Vader. Anakin is a flawed character with enormous pressure on him because Jedi think he's the "Chosen One." Lucas used the AOTC to set up that Anakin wanted too much too fast and that he has dark side tendencies. For an example, he butchered the entire Sand People encampment after his mother died with no remorse out of anger. Lucas may wanted for fans to root for Anakin, but in the end Anakin becomes Vader who leads the Great Jedi Purge and is in the complete thrall of Palpatine. Also remember that at the end of ROTS, Anakin/Vader is still a young man and Episode 4 doesn't take place for another 15-20 years. ROTS was not meant for little kids or Lucas would have made another PG movie. Episode 3 was more for the adults who have watched the entire series. There will not be another movie between ROTS and ANH because theres not much to tell. On the other foot, Lucas has already greenlighted an 100-episode series that takes place between ROTS and ANH with no known characters from the series. Oh, Lucas is a merchandising whore and knows how to market his stuff. He knew what he was doing by forfieting salary for the merchandising rights of Star Wars. 2. Suspense. This movie had none. Remember in the first movies the sense of dread that was created in knowing that there was no hiding from Vader? The light saber battle between Luke and Vader on the cloud city when Luke could hear Vader but not see him, or when Luke had to face Vader in the cave on Yoda's planet. How about the scene where they fell in the trash compactor in Ep. I. These were highly suspenseful, edge of your seat type scenes. The sequels were filled with those kinds of scenes, but that type of suspense was never really achieved in the prequels. Theres not much suspense when the plot is pretty all laid out. I was surprised that Anakin knew that Padme was pregnant. The new movies could never match the originals and they should be viewed that way. 3. The fight scenes. Sure the special effects were great, but most of the choreography was lousy. It was hard to see what was going on in most of the light saber battles b/c the cameras were too close, and Yoda's battle scenes looked too cartoonish, just like they did in Ep II. The only battle scene in any of the prequels on par with those from the sequels was the fight in the end of Ep I between Darth Maul and Obe one and Qui Gon. I actuall loved that scene and thought it was every bit as good as the battles from the sequels. The rest of the light saber battles from the prequels were very forgetable IMO. The fight scenes were good and hard to follow the action. The fight between Anakin and Obi-wan was very good but hard to follow because they had same color lightasbers. With Yoda's fighting style, how else can he not look cartoonish. Yoda is a two foot guy and how else is he supposed to battle a normal sized person. I still think its funny that he can do all the jumping and flipping and then picks up the cane when hes done. Also remember that the Episode 1-3 takes place in the prime of the Jedi when the lightsaber fighting styles are very polished and practiced and in Episodes 4-6, Luke has very limited experience with a lightsaber, Obi-wan is old, and Vader probably doesn't use his saber that much. 4. The storyline. Someone explain to me how Padwe went from not showing to having a baby in what appeared to be a few weeks. Also, if Annakin has such strong Jedi powers, how was he so easily duped by the Sith? How was it that none of the Jedi sensed the Sith? I'm sure some of you more knowledgable star Wars fans can answer these questions, but to the semi casual fan like me, there was a lot of stuff that just didn't make much sense. Lucas could have dealt with the showing of the pregnancy differently. Otherwise the time frame between events in the ROTS was not clearly laid out. Events could have taken place more spaced out than actually shown on film. Anakin was duped because Palpatine is a master manipulator. Anakin loved Padme so much he could not risk losing her. Palpatine planted the seed that he could help Anakin save Padme in return for his service. Anakin felt that Palpatine was the only one who understood him and he nutured Anakin along until he could use him as his weapon. Palpatine probably could have never saved Padme but he used the offer to get what he wanted. Palpatine was pulling all the strings and eventually got exactly what he wanted. He created the Droid Army and the Clone Army. He made the Senate give him more power. He militarized the Republic. He made the war go on and on. He made the Jedi accompany the Clone troops to each battle thus spreading the Jedi out too thim. He molded Anakin to become Vader. After Palpatien told Vader that Padme was dead, there was no turning back form going completely to the dark side. Well, at least Vader does see the light when Palpatine is electrocuting his son. Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Excellent post EvoSkin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvoSkins Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I liked ROTS, but it didn't blow me away. It filled in the holes and ended the series correctly. It takes 15-20 years to build the Death Star and Luke and Leia are in their late teens by ANH. By the time ANH comes around, Vader has been doing the bad guy thing for a long time and is not as emotionally affected as he was in the closing scenes of ROTS. I did like how they ended ROTS with Owen and Beru with Luke looking at the Tatoonie sunset. It reminded of the scenes in ANH of Luke looking to the sunset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by EvoSkins The transition from Anakin to Vader was not a secret. Everyone knows, or should have known, that Anakin has a fall from grace and becomes Vader. Anakin is a flawed character with enormous pressure on him because Jedi think he's the "Chosen One." Lucas used the AOTC to set up that Anakin wanted too much too fast and that he has dark side tendencies. For an example, he butchered the entire Sand People encampment after his mother died with no remorse out of anger. Lucas may wanted for fans to root for Anakin, but in the end Anakin becomes Vader who leads the Great Jedi Purge and is in the complete thrall of Palpatine. Also remember that at the end of ROTS, Anakin/Vader is still a young man and Episode 4 doesn't take place for another 15-20 years. ROTS was not meant for little kids or Lucas would have made another PG movie. Episode 3 was more for the adults who have watched the entire series. There will not be another movie between ROTS and ANH because theres not much to tell. On the other foot, Lucas has already greenlighted an 100-episode series that takes place between ROTS and ANH with no known characters from the series. Oh, Lucas is a merchandising whore and knows how to market his stuff. He knew what he was doing by forfieting salary for the merchandising rights of Star Wars. Theres not much suspense when the plot is pretty all laid out. I was surprised that Anakin knew that Padme was pregnant. The new movies could never match the originals and they should be viewed that way. The fight scenes were good and hard to follow the action. The fight between Anakin and Obi-wan was very good but hard to follow because they had same color lightasbers. With Yoda's fighting style, how else can he not look cartoonish. Yoda is a two foot guy and how else is he supposed to battle a normal sized person. I still think its funny that he can do all the jumping and flipping and then picks up the cane when hes done. Also remember that the Episode 1-3 takes place in the prime of the Jedi when the lightsaber fighting styles are very polished and practiced and in Episodes 4-6, Luke has very limited experience with a lightsaber, Obi-wan is old, and Vader probably doesn't use his saber that much. Lucas could have dealt with the showing of the pregnancy differently. Otherwise the time frame between events in the ROTS was not clearly laid out. Events could have taken place more spaced out than actually shown on film. Anakin was duped because Palpatine is a master manipulator. Anakin loved Padme so much he could not risk losing her. Palpatine planted the seed that he could help Anakin save Padme in return for his service. Anakin felt that Palpatine was the only one who understood him and he nutured Anakin along until he could use him as his weapon. Palpatine probably could have never saved Padme but he used the offer to get what he wanted. Palpatine was pulling all the strings and eventually got exactly what he wanted. He created the Droid Army and the Clone Army. He made the Senate give him more power. He militarized the Republic. He made the war go on and on. He made the Jedi accompany the Clone troops to each battle thus spreading the Jedi out too thim. He molded Anakin to become Vader. After Palpatien told Vader that Padme was dead, there was no turning back form going completely to the dark side. Well, at least Vader does see the light when Palpatine is electrocuting his son. Sorry for the rant. Good replies, but a few things: If ROTS was for adults, then why all of the toys and marketing towards 5 year olds. Did Lucas think that we would buy the kids all of the toys they see commercials for during childrens tv shows, but then not take them to the movie?. My son (5) had the Darth Vader helmet and light saber before the movie came out, and was very determined to see the movie. Surprisingly, he wasn't scared at all, but the scene when Anakin killed the kids definitely disturbed him. My kids had already seen Episodes I and II on dvd, why make a final episode of the series that kids can't watch. Also, I understand that Anakin was a flawed character and why he had his "fall from grace". I'm saying the transition didn't make sense. He did show great remorse to Padwe when he killed the sandpeople, as he did when saved Palpatine from Windu, causing Windu's death. He was clearly a character still struggling with the good and evil within him when he was suddenly killing children with no apparent remorse what so ever. It just wasn't believable to me. As far as the suspense goes, just b/c we knew the outcome of the movie doesn't mean they couldn't have created suspenseful scenes. Why shouldn't the new movies be able to match the originals? It's the same people making them isn't it? ROTS had none of the mounting tension that the original movies had. Just a bunch of guys flying and flipping around with light sabers. I knew that the die hard fans would like the movie b/c of the answers it provides, but the overall movie making was weak IMO. Just a bunch of slicked up effects with very little substance. Anakin's downfall in the end did trigger some emotion from me, but it wasn't enough to save the movie. The originals had the great effects, but what made them so great was the suspense and athmospheres they created in the various scenes. I just don't get those same feelings in the prequels, except for in the final battle scene between Darth Maul and Quigon and Obe One in Episode I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 My main gripe about the flick was something that popped in my head on my way home tonight. Not Vader's Frankenstein walking or the cheesy "Nooooo... " but something far more sinister. I remarked to myself how Padme was done up to look still with-child at her funeral, obviously to conceal the fact that the babies were taken. However... Everyone knew she was pregnant. It was obvious as the proverbial nose on her face. She's a Senator. No one asks who the Father is? No one is curious at all? Obi-Wan apparently comes by occasionally. Not only does he not notice any trace of Anakin at her home, but he doesn't suspect Anakin is the Father? He never asks who the Father is? Does anyone? Ever? Confusing, this is. Ponder on this, I will. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I thought this movie would have been better if they'd had a lower budget. That would've forced them to have fewer climactic battle scenes, and spent more time with the characters. I was hoping that the "hook" that Palpatine used to lure Anakin would be a mission to free the slaves on Tatoine. "I understand your misgivings, young Skywalker, but this is politics, my area of expertise, and this is how things get done in this world." "The path to the Dark Side is paved . . . " (BTW, theory: Padme's death dur to mysterious causes at the end. Palpatine studied, under his master, techniques of using meticlaureans to controll life. I wonder if maybe he learned how to controll them to cause death.) All in all, I was disapointed. I expected this movie to be about character, not about eliminating dangling plot lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Larry I think they played up the fear of losing Padme angle a bit too much. True, they showed his lust for power in this film and hinted at it in AotC. But I think they didn't make enough of an issue of Anakin's resentment of the Jedi for abandoning his mother or their inaction in the face of pressing needs Thankfully, I DID feel some emotion in the film, far more than the other two prequels. I just think Anakin had always been motivated by an intense desire to do justice and for order at all costs. Lucas hinted and touched on these things, but in the end he chose a slightly awkward focus for the fall of a mythical hero. To kill kids because you want to save your wife and you want more power than the Jedi allow you is a bit of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Actually if you recall in the Attack of the clones at the end when anakin and padme got married, she was "showing" a little bit... go back and take a look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 pez that doesnt make sense. AotC's timeline is years before RotS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbeskin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin pez that doesnt make sense. AotC's timeline is years before RotS She is showing a bit. On another topic, I don't think with a movie like this you can please everyone. Take it for what it is, cause that's all your going to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin pez that doesnt make sense. AotC's timeline is years before RotS whose to say a pregnancy is 9 months in a galaxy far far away... Try not to look into details like this, this is meant to be a fun sci-fi movie to entartain the masses... it is not shakespeare. It's kinda like the trekkies who interrogate the actors asking why a shrub is on a planet with methane gas and valcanic lakes... who cares! Sit back... eat the popcorn... and take a couple minutes break from reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 pez Sci-fi? You're not at all about Star Wars. SW is fantasy. It provides mythological archetypes and thematic material whereas sci-fi is about an exploration of contemporary or human social issues(not that SW doesnt touch on those as well.) For instance, the entire idea about the Clones, in a sci-fi flick, would have been about the morality of using cloned armies in the first place. In SW they are there to provide an army and a way to later on destroy the Jedi. And trust me, whether or not she APPEARS to be showing, the timeline would be off. And judging other aspects of the series, humans seem to greatly resemble humans of our world. As for looking into details, you're the one who pointed it out. I'm just showing you how it's not likely to have been what you thought it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin pez Sci-fi? You're not at all about Star Wars. SW is fantasy. It provides mythological archetypes and thematic material whereas sci-fi is about an exploration of contemporary or human social issues(not that SW doesnt touch on those as well.) For instance, the entire idea about the Clones, in a sci-fi flick, would have been about the morality of using cloned armies in the first place. In SW they are there to provide an army and a way to later on destroy the Jedi. And trust me, whether or not she APPEARS to be showing, the timeline would be off. And judging other aspects of the series, humans seem to greatly resemble humans of our world. As for looking into details, you're the one who pointed it out. I'm just showing you how it's not likely to have been what you thought it was... I am just trying to get across, to not go to in depth into the "details" this is not real life.. it is purely entertainment. If you want to pick apart details, pick the details in historical movies like "The Passon of the Christ" or "Alexander" or such movies that actually occured in reality, not in someone's head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin SW is fantasy. It provides mythological archetypes and thematic material whereas sci-fi is about an exploration of contemporary or human social issues(not that SW doesnt touch on those as well.) I'm with you on that one. For instance, I was really ticked off about the whole "Yes, Luke, Darth Vader is your father" thing. Because Star Wars is (or, started out as) fantasy, ("Sure, Farm Boy, we've got a jet fighter sitting here waiting for you to use, 'cause you say you've done really swift things with the ol' John Deere back home."), and in fantasy, the Bad Guys lie, and the Good Guys don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I know you guys are bitter that everything is not explained in the movies... HOWEVER, Lucas intended his cartoon series Clone Wars to be part of Anakin's character development. It goes into a lot more supporting character and main character depth that you all are grumbling the movie is missing... I.E. The reason General Greivious has lung cancer is because Mace Windu crushed him into a ball. He was the most powerful Jedi (but you wouldn't know that if you just watched the movies)-- till anakin cheap shotted him. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I had no problem with Annikan's transition to the Dark Side. And I don't think his character was flawed. He was manipulated rather ingeniously. It was all about loyalty to political process. The Chancellor IS the Chancellor after all. And Annikan, having been left out of the Council's meetings, has to reason to understand or appreciate the motivation of the Jedi Masters. So, it's completely legitimate that he could be manipulated to believe the Jedi's were attempted to gain power over the Republic. When I think about it... Vader isn't such a bad guy He did all of what he did to preserve his love AND end the war. The talk of "ruling the universe" came out of nowhere though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number1team Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I don't get how Pedme is running when she is gonna give birth soon.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Granted I haven't "gone to the darkside" but I think you get a little inebriated with power when you do Die Hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by number1team I don't get how Pedme is running when she is gonna give birth soon.......... Um... when did that happen? When she got on the space ship to see Annikan on the Volcano planet... no running. She was then strangled to near death. And she was already on the ship when Obi-Wan finished his saber fight (we didn't see how she made it back unto the ship). The next scene had Obi-Wan carry her off the ship to the medical center. Then she was giving birth. So when did she run exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by ChocolateCitySkin Granted I haven't "gone to the darkside" but I think you get a little inebriated with power when you do Die Hard. Yeah, but think about it. "The Sith Lord is old and weak. I can defeat him and we can rule the universe and create it as we want". And yet, after 15-20 years (while they were building the Death Star)..... he never did kill the Sith Lord. Why? Annikan joined the Dark Side so he can learn the power to save Padme. Ruling the universe... that was simply never discussed at the dinner table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by number1team I don't get how Pedme is running when she is gonna give birth soon.......... Running through head all day... *bah dum bum psshh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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