gbear Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 That's fair. Here's the problem, people want what's cheap. Nonsmokers like me have a hard time paying more for a product made somewhere that allows smoking. Do you ask what the smoking policy is the place of manufacture for most of your goods and services? If so, good for you. If enough people are like minded, there will be other companies filling in the niche ofthe market. If not... Thiebear, I'm not saying companies should fire smokers. I think it all comes down to is the worker getting the job done at the best available cost. If one wokrs hard enough to get a job done at a lower cost then that one should get the job. However, the risks associated with smoking exist, and that risk is typically counted as a cost (usually in the form of insurance premiums). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fire all smokers form all jobs (just like I htought it was stupid to boot gay interpreters from the military when we needed interpreters). If you can do the job at a lower cost than the alternative, the business is stupid to fire you. That being said, if you can only do the job as well as...the n I would expect the business to go with the cheapest option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbeskin Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by gbear That's fair. Here's the problem, people want what's cheap. Nonsmokers like me have a hard time paying more for a product made somewhere that allows smoking. Do you ask what the smoking policy is the place of manufacture for most of your goods and services? If so, good for you. If enough people are like minded, there will be other companies filling in the niche ofthe market. If not... Thiebear, I'm not saying companies should fire smokers. I think it all comes down to is the worker getting the job done at the best available cost. If one wokrs hard enough to get a job done at a lower cost then that one should get the job. However, the risks associated with smoking exist, and that risk is typically counted as a cost (usually in the form of insurance premiums). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fire all smokers form all jobs (just like I htought it was stupid to boot gay interpreters from the military when we needed interpreters). If you can do the job at a lower cost than the alternative, the business is stupid to fire you. That being said, if you can only do the job as well as...the n I would expect the business to go with the cheapest option. Great idea let's employ 10 year old kids in mexico because they will work for 10 cents! Woo Hoo and we probably don't have to pay health care either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNut73 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 ...okay then... I'm the employee and I don't smoke...when you go to hire me are you going to ask if my wife smokes? ...since she will also be covered under my (your) insurance plan... Curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by forbeskin Great idea let's employ 10 year old kids in mexico because they will work for 10 cents! Woo Hoo and we probably don't have to pay health care either! You have some legitimate points to make but you're making them in the most ridiculous way possible. I think you'd be taken a little more seriously if you just laid out your case without smilies and sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbeskin Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 The post was meant to sound unreasonable because what he suggesting is, but thanks for the concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by SkinsNut73 ...okay then... I'm the employee and I don't smoke...when you go to hire me are you going to ask if my wife smokes? ...since she will also be covered under my (your) insurance plan... Curious. No, because your wife's health is not a rating factor for the Insurance Policy. But there are other reasons for not hiring smokers. Appearance and reliability also factor in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by forbeskin The post was meant to sound unreasonable because what he suggesting is, but thanks for the concern. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Ironically, I own an Insurance Agency. Off topic but whatever: Are there any laws concerning insurance agencies and how much they spend on their costs versus their pay outs? Also I know with non-profits you can get fairly standard numbers like 99 cents on the dollar is sent to the field. Is there such a measuring stick for insurance companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNut73 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 No, because your wife's health is not a rating factor for the Insurance Policy. But there are other reasons for not hiring smokers. Appearance and reliability also factor in. Is that a fact? Interesting. I can see not hiring someone because they smoke (whether or not you disclose that as the reason for not hiring I'm not sure). I agree that appearance is a factor in certain jobs - especially where you are meeting clients...maybe not so important at a customer service call center for example. I have a problem with firing someone who is already working for you... ...and the slippery slope others mentioned concerns me too. We tackle the smokers today...tomorrow do we test you to see if you have eaten at a fast food joint for lunch ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Destino Off topic but whatever: Are there any laws concerning insurance agencies and how much they spend on their costs versus their pay outs? Also I know with non-profits you can get fairly standard numbers like 99 cents on the dollar is sent to the field. Is there such a measuring stick for insurance companies. Not sure what you mean exactly Des. If you are asking what the COMPANIES can do, than yes. There are specific Federal, state and local guidelines for Proerty and Casualty Insurance. And an additional couple of layers for Life, Health and annuities. But on the agency side, they only regulate my business practices (ie, suitability, complaint resolving, redlining, marketing tactics etc), not the profits vs costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by SkinsNut73 Is that a fact? Interesting. I can see not hiring someone because they smoke (whether or not you disclose that as the reason for not hiring I'm not sure). I agree that appearance is a factor in certain jobs - especially where you are meeting clients...maybe not so important at a customer service call center for example. I have a problem with firing someone who is already working for you... ...and the slippery slope others mentioned concerns me too. We tackle the smokers today...tomorrow do we test you to see if you have eaten at a fast food joint for lunch ??? The free Market will take care of that slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by dfitzo53 You have some legitimate points to make but you're making them in the most ridiculous way possible. I think you'd be taken a little more seriously if you just laid out your case without smilies and sarcasm. The mexican example isn't "ridiculous" being that it actually happens all the time. Odds are you own clothing made via that "ridiculous" method being employed. This issue is about what is acceptable behavior to improve a companies bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Not sure what you mean exactly Des. If you are asking what the COMPANIES can do, than yes. There are specific Federal, state and local guidelines for Proerty and Casualty Insurance. And an additional couple of layers for Life, Health and annuities. But on the agency side, they only regulate my business practices (ie, suitability, complaint resolving, redlining, marketing tactics etc), not the profits vs costs. Well with the insurance industry we always hear horror stories of denied claims and such. At the same time I see executive taking home a great deal of money while sick people are being screwed. So then the obvious question from these stereotypes is, how do I know how much of my money is being used on care versus company costs. That ratio would seem to me to be an all important figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Des, those numbers are public record. You can find out from the Ins Dept (or Dept of Financial Services) in your state Govt. I dont think people have a firm understanding about how the industry works and how well regulated it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 The only valid question is if this is a voluntary relationship or not. ALL employee-employer relationships are voluntary. Employment is NOT a right and slavery is illegal (except that imposed by government). It is only the GOVERNMENT that can put a gun upside your head and coerce you to act in a way contrary to your wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Des, those numbers are public record. You can find out from the Ins Dept (or Dept of Financial Services) in your state Govt. I dont think people have a firm understanding about how the industry works and how well regulated it is. But is there a universal ratio being used or at least something close to it? I really don't feel like brushing up on every states laws concerning what expenses can be counted as what. I'd like to know of a easy method to discover the companies most efficiently using my monthly check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Sorry man. No such animal. In fact, each company will have different numbers. THe state (and fed, and local) has to approve them, but they dont have to be the same for all companies. Similarly, rates for all types of Insurance are heavily regulated. A company cant simply decide to raise rates to whatever they choose. It's a process involving fed and state regulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 A few examples that might help you think it through. I represent about 35 different Ins Companies. All of them pay different percentages of premium as commissions. Additionally, some of them pay a bonus for loss ratios below a certain level. EX- Company A will pay a bonus for the year if the loss ratio is below 80%. Meaning 80 cents on the dollar paid out in claims. Company B might have that number at 50 percent. Both would have had to submit all of that to fed and state for regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I agree with Kilmer here surprisingly. The free market will dictate this success or failure of this endeavor. With that being said.... I sit here... and watch Americans impose tighter and tighter restrictions on people. I'm shocked. At times, I think Canadians can be tight-@sses. But lately, the things I've read coming from the US..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I see I forgot a trait we are allowed/forced to discriminate on by law: age. fair enough (10 year old example). Interestingly enough, age is on the list of things we can't discriminate on for older ages along gender and race. It's definitely odd when I agree with Kilmer. Realize that as I read it, niether of us are saying companies should universaly discriminate against smokers. I am only saying they can. I think there is also a business cases to be made for doing so. Would I do it with my company? Depends on the position and the cost/productivity of a given worker. Somehow giving a smoker a job because they smoke seems unlikely to be one of the reasons for me to start a business. Businesses are about making money for their owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbeskin Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I think we should do what the canadians do when it comes to insurance. I never have to worry about insurance being in the military, but I would happily pay extra taxes so other people would not have to worry about health care. I still don't know why we haven't opted for this system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Because it would be a collosal failure. We arent Canada. The majorit dont WANT Govt Healthcare. Our system isnt perfect, but it's better than waiting 5 months for an MRI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbeskin Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Ya cause being turned down for no health care at the emergency room is a way system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Are you that uniformed? An Emergency room cant do that. It's one of the reasons hospitals are going broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Skins Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 But there are other reasons for not hiring smokers. Appearance and reliability also factor in. I have a problem with this line. I have smoked since I was 16 years old, never fired from a job because of performance ( I work circles around most ) and I dress fine and see many smokers who look fine in their appearance. When I leave a job for something new, I get calls to come back every time. and after my last physical I am in good health. go figure.. but I understand it is your business and you can run it the way you want. just don't lump all smokers into that category. now the smell is the real draw back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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