Need help on job offer (I think I this may be some sort of scam)

[TK]

Originally posted by Grumpy Vet

You know why I like Spaceman Spiff?

The dancing Carlton Banks in his sig that has nothing to do with Calvin & Hobbs, but is funny as heck anyways?

[Grumpy Vet]

Originally posted by TK-IV II I

:notworthy

I think you and I might be two peas in a pod TK......I'm thrilled another salesperson holds some of these things sacred. We are few and far between.

While it takes a while to establish such a relationship between salesperson and customer.....and many companies make the mistake of not allowing enough time....once established - and serviced - the bond is remarkably strong. One thing that baffles me - why more salespeople don't tell the truth. In the long run - it really is the best option. Omission?....depends.....but outright lying......that irks me.

The end of last year I was, unfortunately, promoted to Branch Manager, and have to deal w/ Operations, HR, Collections, Yard & Warehouse.....etc......but nothing excites me more than working directly w/ the customers I've kept as my own and working w/ my sales force.

Very rewarding. Very. TPS reports it ain't.

[TK]

Originally posted by Grumpy Vet

One thing that baffles me - why more salespeople don't tell the truth. In the long run - it really is the best option. Omission?....depends.....but outright lying......that irks me.

Ok. Follow me here for a second.

If Gibbs = God.

Then may Gibbs bless you.

Besides the Zig quote I ran a page or two back, I also follow this other simple guideline.

Never, ever lie to a customer.

You know why? Because it'll bite you in the ass 9 times outta 10.

BTW, here's the "About Us" page from my company's website. GV, note the new & Improved logo.

http://www.americanoutlawrims.com/about1.html

[Grumpy Vet]

Originally posted by TK-IV II I

Ok. Follow me here for a second.

If Gibbs = God.

Then may Gibbs bless you.

Besides the Zig quote I ran a page or two back, I also follow this other simple guideline.

Never, ever lie to a customer.

You know why? Because it'll bite you in the ass 9 times outta 10.

BTW, here's the "About Us" page from my company's website. GV, note the new & Improved logo.

http://www.americanoutlawrims.com/about1.html

Yep - we are cut of the same stone. Nice "mission statement" on your page. Very nice.....and yeah - I had a tough time w/ your logo once before - I like the new one.

The whole lying thing came up today w/ the new salesguy I was w/ today. He told a customer an untruth. He was kinda stuck about a delivery schedule and had the customer calling him while I was riding w/ him.

He asked my opinion - I suggested that he build a time machine - go back to Wednesday and tell the customer the truth....we'd be a day late delivering the product.

Short of going all "Doc" and building a time machine out of a Delorean - I suggested he never do that again.....As you said TK, it will come back to bite you. In the end, customers will appreciate the honesty, plan accordingly and it will separate "you" from the others.

.....sheesh - I better go eat dinner - I'm continuing to be all preachy......and it is getting late...

TK - Nice chat, my friend......pity you are not closer - I think you and I would have a really good time at a tailgate.....hoisting a few.....doing GGR impressions - and talking about how Coach and the Skins are going to turn this Titanic of a franchise around.....

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

First of all, they tell you in the interview training isn't paid for. Second, you do pay for your sample set, which you can return at the end of your experience with Vector. Both of these things SHOULD HAVE been covered in your interview. Vague ads? As soon as the receptionst picks up the phone or you go to the website, you can't NOT know that it's vector. As far as lawsuits, I don't know much about them, they never concerned me. And I've met a bunch of kids who haven't made money, all because they didn't work and expected things to fall in their lap. Losing money? Not sure how, maybe because they were too dumb to return the sample set and get the deposit back.

HAH the guy said I wouldn't have to pay him for the "classes" like it was some sort of great deal for me to take days off of school and go to their little seminars. Yeah they told me I wouldn't get paid for them, but they also wasted 2 hours of my time.

"they never concerned me"

Hah, I am not surprised

As one of the previous posters said, the phone has to be used in sales, simply put. We can agree to disagree here on what the definition of "telemarketing" and "door to door" is. But the story here is totally offbase, nonetheless. The customer that you are with calls a friend and asks them if they'd be willing to take a look at the demo. If they say yes, you can call them. If no, you can't call them. It's that simple. Where's the scam?

Fine whatever

More ignorance. Yes, the sales average companywide is around $200. If you didn't sell anything, how can you count it as a sale? What this donkey is talking about is something called CLOSING RATIO, the amount of sales you make divded by the number of demos you do. 6/10 is 60%, close to what the companies ratio is. Again, this is something you would have learned in the interview. Closing ration is about 60%, average order is around $200. They actually write it down for you.

And if you DO follow the program and work hard, you won't have a problem getting references. I didn't sell 46,000 by not getting references.

They gave the impression that you make $200 bucks an appointment, and the guy did not mention just the immense number of "no thank you, I don't want to spend a $1000 on knives."

Secondly, I have to question the ethics of anyone that ends up selling such expensive crap. I wonder what type of techniques you used.

Speaking of ethics, don't you think it is funny how the manager talks about ethics and how that is why Vector does not pay commission because that will make the reps forceful, then 5 minutes later he is explaining how there ACTUALLY IS COMMISSION and that sales will increase the % thereby making the reps that much more forceful. WHAT A GREAT COMPANY!

And yes, sales aren't for everyone, but sooner or later everyone sells something, and eventually everyone WILL have to sell themselves.

Yeah this line of work isn't for me, it is worse that prostitution and only one notch above drug dealing.

Also, some of the things that they say in the presentation are not true, ie Consumer Report never had a special on them, they only reffered to Cutco in an article about different kinds of knives.

Also, they count letters to the editor of magazines, as somehow being featured in them.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Liberty

HAH the guy said I wouldn't have to pay him for the "classes" like it was some sort of great deal for me to take days off of school and go to their little seminars. Yeah they told me I wouldn't get paid for them, but they also wasted 2 hours of my time.

They gave the impression that you make $200 bucks an appointment, and the guy did not mention just the immense number of "no thank you, I don't want to spend a $1000 on knives."

Secondly, I have to question the ethics of anyone that ends up selling such expensive crap. I wonder what type of techniques you used.

Speaking of ethics, don't you think it is funny how the manager talks about ethics and how that is why Vector does not pay commission because that will make the reps forceful, then 5 minutes later he is explaining how there ACTUALLY IS COMMISSION and that sales will increase the % thereby making the reps that much more forceful. WHAT A GREAT COMPANY!

Yeah this line of work isn't for me, it is worse that prostitution and only one notch above drug dealing.

Also, some of the things that they say in the presentation are not true, ie Consumer Report never had a special on them, they only reffered to Cutco in an article about different kinds of knives.

Also, they count letters to the editor of magazines, as somehow being featured in them.

Well dude, some companies charge their people for training. Sad but true. Vector doesn't. They call it a class because it's like a classroom setting. Still, does it make Vector a scam? Did they deceive you in anyway?

And you keep bringing back the ethics of someone selling expensive stuff. Do you not like fine quality things? Surely you have something thats WAY expensive but didn't think twice about buying. The fact is, people buy expensive knives. Know why? because if no one did, then the prices wouldn't be that high. Sorry dude, but thats the way the cutlery (and a lot of other) business works. You can buy cheap knives over and over again replacing them every few years or buy a set that'll last you for life. In the long run, buying over and over will cost you more than an expensive set. Do you fail to grasp this concept? Smart consumers do not.

And it's not all about selling $1000 dollars every time out. I can count on one hand how many $1000+ dollar orders I've had, the largest being for $1929 for a just married military couple. The husband asked the wife "Honey, which one do you want?" and lo and behold she pointed to the biggest one. Some sneaky underhanded tactic, huh? I've had a ton of orders for just one or two knives, ranging in price from 20 bucks to 90 or 100. A sale is a sale.

And what manager said it wasn't comission based? It is comission based. You're just getting hung up in the way they describe the difference between the base pay and the incentive program. The base pay is designed for the rep who somehow goes out and doesn't sell on like 5 demos in a row. Yes, they still get paid. The incentive program (comission) allows them to make more through sales and comissions. Still, is it a scam? Have the lied to you about how they make money?

So where's this great big scam? Big whup, you lost two hours of your time. Newsflash, you're going to go on other interviews in your life where you won't like what is laid out in front of you and decide to take a pass. Are you going to dig up dirt on that company as well and come on here and start spouting stuff too?

Gentlemen, what we have here is a case of the prosecution simply griping about going to an interview, having two hours of his time wasted in addition to having internet slam sites do his thinking for him and hearing what he wants to hear. The defense rests.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Grumpy Vet

You know why I like Spaceman Spiff? I opened the door in my post......and he threw it open like a pissed off Swat Team member raiding a child porn den......Nice job SS - we'll chat over PM, that you initiated, about some knives.

I was curious if anyone would pick up on that. You did. I won't pay 900 bucks for knives - but I may be interested in a couple knives.....

Hell yeah I did, are you nuts? Did you honestly think I'd pass that up? I may not be actively seeking new customers but if something like that falls in my lap I'm not gonna pass it up. Always have to follow up on leads, no matter what the potential is or how you got them. Sales is a numbers game, the more times you play, the more times you're bound to win (read: make a sale). ABP and ABC people.

TK and Grumpy Vet, I agree with you guys about being honest. I liked the mission statement as well, very positive and inspired. You can tell its not just some crap someone came up with at the last minute to put on a website.

I think you guys will also agree with me that a sales program needs good people, products and programs. If one is missing, the others fail, it's like a checks and balances system and it's one thing that I know to look for when I'm out looking for a job.

Also, never make promises on things that aren't fully in your control or aren't possible. Hope that salesguy learned his lesson.

And with that, I'm throwing on Glengarry and goin to bed.

[TK]

Methinks a few of us need to find a salesmen's board.

You guys liked the mission statement, see what you think of this:Before You Buy

I don't think I've ever seen another company's site with a direct link like that one before.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is a real interesting thread

As I said before I worked for Vector. Failed at it to be honest, just wasn't in the cards

Being a contractor however, I have opened a pandoras box to the amount of money I have earned. As spaceman said, its all a numbers game.

Right now for 2005 I have landed half of the estimates I have done, and an average job size of 3,200 per estimate. I make from 23-27 percent per job, so you can see where my earning potential is.

We have a fairly simple business plan. We assume on average you should land 1/3 of your estimates and depending on territory should average 2,000 per sales. The first year guys with us are put at a goal of running a 75k bussiness. I am pretty much on my own now and have expanded beyond painting and hope to land 1 million in business between myself and one other sales rep.

You really do have to believe in what you are selling though, and if you have any doubts about the ethics with it, I would avoid it like the plauge.

Its probably why I didn't do well at Vector at all. I felt awful pushing knives of all things on people.

Contracting however has made me really believe in what I do. I know my crews will do good work, and you want the work done. Why else would you call me? Why else would your friend tell you about me to call me?

Right now I have what I call "power customers" They have each provided me 10 refferals which I landed or answer calls as my references. I take care of small home improvement needs for them (paint a bedroom) and when they need something big done they call me again. Works well.

The gyst of this thread should be this. If you are going to go into a career where you are making money off of commision or sales be HONEST about what you do, and BELIEVE in what you do. If you cannot do either one those, you will not succeed at all. And in what I do being honest and believing in what I do is key. I can't just lie to customers and say "yeah we'll put 3 coats of paint and repair all the wood" and not do it. They'll find out. And so will the whole neighborhood

*EDIT*

I'll add one thing spaceman. I still find Vector a little shady (I don't think its the devil though) and saw some people who worked there completely out of wack

A few things at Vector did get to me, such as weekly pump you up meetings and the summer sales conferences which really were nothing but to get you pumped up

Also, depending on where you are spaceman, you may or may not know a guy named Rich P. (I won't use his full last name)

Well he is a manager in the northern va area and is one hell of a public speaker. Most guys at Vector are, they teach it to you real well

He came and spoke to our frat (Vector is a national sponser of our frat) and did a great job and joined us at our bar night (despite what I think of the guy I thought he was a great great speaker especially with what he was talking about in regards to time management)

Anyways he is out with us at the bar and I start talking to him saying I did Vector in 2000. His eyes light up and he says "I remeber you!, you were one of our top guys that summer!! Your manager (a guy named Chris had you in line for a mangement position"

It took a lot in me not to laugh at that line, considering that it had been 3 years since I was at Vector and I sucked. He even tried convincing me to come back to Vector. Heck of a nice guy, but I totally found that bit of dishonesty there uneccessary

[Prosperity]

And what manager said it wasn't comission based? It is comission based. You're just getting hung up in the way they describe the difference between the base pay and the incentive program. The base pay is designed for the rep who somehow goes out and doesn't sell on like 5 demos in a row. Yes, they still get paid. The incentive program (comission) allows them to make more through sales and comissions. Still, is it a scam? Have the lied to you about how they make money?

I didn't get hung up on anything, the manager contradicted himself. He wanted to make it seem like the company was interested in the ethics of the selling process when in fact they are not.

What is with the fixation on the websites? Maybe you are angry that your beloved company is being portrayed in a way not consistent with what you think. You have fused your self as a person with Vector the company. You see any attack on Vector as an attack on yourself. It is a very unfortunate situation, but you seem incapable of having an objective perspective.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Liberty

I didn't get hung up on anything, the manager contradicted himself. He wanted to make it seem like the company was interested in the ethics of the selling process when in fact they are not.

What is with the fixation on the websites? Maybe you are angry that your beloved company is being portrayed in a way not consistent with what you think. You have fused your self as a person with Vector the company. You see any attack on Vector as an attack on yourself. It is a very unfortunate situation, but you seem incapable of having an objective perspective.

Haha, the company isn't "beloved" by me. I have my issues with it, like I said before.

He wasn't contradicting himself. See, some sales positions have pay based on strictly comission. Vector has a base pay so if reps don't make sales, they still make money, that way they don't feel the pressure to make sales and in turn pressure customers into buying stuff. Maybe he did a poor job of explaining it, but thats how it works.

I don't need an objectiver perspective because I'm telling the truth, and having been with the company for 3 years, I think, just a hunch, that I might know a tad more about it than someone who sat through the interview and looked up slam sites. Isn't that a fair assesment?

[praise_gibbs]

While, I know this is an old thread. I would hope that you have had better experiences or atleast heard of better experiences with Vector since. I have been working for this company just a week and I can not be happier. The fact is, people expect to get something for nothing. You HAVE to work for whatever you get. This company is no different. If you are lazy and are not self-motivated, then this is not the job for you.. as many in this thread have already stated.

If anything, Vector is a gateway for more opportunity. You learn a lot about working with people as well as your negotiation skills.

Just like in anything, people will have negative opinions about things and others will have positives. The thing you have to remember, and like I already stated, this is NOT for everyone. If people are not good at something.. they think the company is crap. Those links that Liberty posted in the begining of ths thread are bogus. That just sounds like a dude that sucked at what he did and ****ed about it. Just like Jim Rohn has said: "Don't wish it were easier, wish YOU were better!" It is not going to be easy.. you are going to have to work through the adversity that you face. That is life. Cowards/failures run AWAY from adversity (just like that guy that wrote those blogs in Libertys links)... successful people/champions run THROUGH it.

Dude gave up because he sucked at it and is pissed off about it. The fact is there are people out there that have sold over $2 million worth of Cutco. I went to a conference on Wednesday and have talked with them. Some, are under the age of 25 and are very successful. With Vector, just like life in general, you take out of it what you put into it. If you do nothing, you get nothing.

Amazing how life works.

[Major Harris]

While, I know this is an old thread. I would hope that you have had better experiences or atleast heard of better experiences with Vector since. I have been working for this company just a week and I can not be happier. The fact is, people expect to get something for nothing. You HAVE to work for whatever you get. This company is no different. If you are lazy and are not self-motivated, then this is not the job for you.. as many in this thread have already stated.

If anything, Vector is a gateway for more opportunity. You learn a lot about working with people as well as your negotiation skills.

Just like in anything, people will have negative opinions about things and others will have positives. The thing you have to remember, and like I already stated, this is NOT for everyone. If people are not good at something.. they think the company is crap. Those links that Liberty posted in the begining of ths thread are bogus. That just sounds like a dude that sucked at what he did and ****ed about it. Just like Jim Rohn has said: "Don't wish it were easier, wish YOU were better!" It is not going to be easy.. you are going to have to work through the adversity that you face. That is life. Cowards/failures run AWAY from adversity (just like that guy that wrote those blogs in Libertys links)... successful people/champions run THROUGH it.

Dude gave up because he sucked at it and is pissed off about it. The fact is there are people out there that have sold over $2 million worth of Cutco. I went to a conference on Wednesday and have talked with them. Some, are under the age of 25 and are very successful. With Vector, just like life in general, you take out of it what you put into it. If you do nothing, you get nothing.

Amazing how life works.

way more people have negative experiences than positive experiences with things like this. maybe most people suck, i don't know.

you've said you've been at it a week. as someone else pointed out, it gets harder once you get past selling to family and friends.

[praise_gibbs]

way more people have negative experiences than positive experiences with things like this. maybe most people suck, i don't know.

This is not your everyday job for everyone. Not everyone will be successful with this. There is a lot of adversity to face in sales in general.. nevermind selling cutlery. The people that like this business will break records, the people that hate it because it is just not for them will break under the pressure. Just the way it works. You may not make a lot of money off of it, while some people will, just the luck in it plus the dedication and discipline to succeed. You have to want it.

you've said you've been at it a week. as someone else pointed out, it gets harder once you get past selling to family and friends.

As does everything. But, if you are good at it.. (like the Adidas slogan) impossible is nothing. Difficult? Sure. But, it should never be too easy. Where is the fun in that? How would you get any kind of satisfaction out of it? You have to like a challenge.

[Major Harris]

As does everything. But, if you are good at it.. (like the Adidas slogan) impossible is nothing. Difficult? Sure. But, it should never be too easy. Where is the fun in that? How would you get any kind of satisfaction out of it? You have to like a challenge.

there are challenges, and there are bad gambles. and that's not to say that you're committing to the latter.

[Corcaigh]

I wouldn't call this type of business a scam unless they are asking you to fund either your training or to buy leads from them, knowing fully that you won't make money.

A career in sales is not for everyone; and there are many different types of sales careers and different commission schemes too. I've worked with folks who started selling knives (and timeshares) and moved onto selling high value business software as their career.

You might argue that pastors are in sales too, just not commission-based.

An important thing the company has going for it is a good product. But it appears that they don't care so much about the time wasted in recruiting people who aren't a good fit for the long term.

[Prosperity]

You are right, a job in sales isn't for everyone, especially when you feel like the product you are selling is horse****. I guess some people don't have a problem selling things that are too expensive for what they are.

I wouldn't call this type of business a scam unless they are asking you to fund either your training or to buy leads from them

they make you buy your own knives, the ones that you showcase that is, and they don't pay you for the days they train you.

The only people that can make money on this job are hyper motivated lunatics and people that have large and wealthy families.

I am still mad at cut co, mother ****ers.

[jrockster21]

You are right, a job in sales isn't for everyone, especially when you feel like the product you are selling is horse****. I guess some people don't have a problem selling things that are too expensive for what they are.

You obviously know nothing about cooking. Go to a high-end kitchen store and take a gander at some of the knives. You will see that high-quality knives can be up to 2-300 dollars A POP. $900 for a set is actually a great deal, assuming they are high-quality. Shoot...Target has $100 knives.

they make you buy your own knives, the ones that you showcase that is, and they don't pay you for the days they train you.

Come on, man. This is a basic tenet of economics and really life in general. You've got to spend money to make money. Learn it, live it, love it.

The only people that can make money on this job are hyper motivated lunatics and people that have large and wealthy families.

And this comment is pretty out of line, IMO.

[skinfan2k]

indian people won't buy knives like this, were too cheap.. thats why i didn't continue afte r i got a offer for the job

[praise_gibbs]

You are right, a job in sales isn't for everyone, especially when you feel like the product you are selling is horse****. I guess some people don't have a problem selling things that are too expensive for what they are.

they make you buy your own knives, the ones that you showcase that is, and they don't pay you for the days they train you.

The only people that can make money on this job are hyper motivated lunatics and people that have large and wealthy families.

I am still mad at cut co, mother ****ers.

Too expensive? Are you saying that they are over priced or that you can not afford them?

I can totally understand where you are coming from but, if you think that you can not afford them.. you are in luck! Cutco has a payment plan so you can get the knives that you need now and not worry about paying all of the money up front.

I have here a piece of paper.. together we will write down (on one-side) the pros and then turn the paper over and write the cons.

Clearly, if you look at it, the pros vastly outweight the cons. These knives are protected by the Forever Guarantees (Forever Sharpness/ Forever Miss-use and Abuse/ 15 day money back), they are comfortable, will not rust, pit or corrode. Whereas, your cons is just about money. Can you now see why these knives are worth the investment?

Cutco can seem expensive but, would you rather spend more money over time by replacing the knives that get dull and break due to planned obsolense (example: light bulbs, tires)? Or would you rather pay what seems like expensive now and save a lot of money in the long run?

In sales, you HAVE to be motivated. Just because you are not.. don't ***** about it bro. Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better." Maybe it was not the job? Rather it was the attitude that you have that made you break under the pressure?

Oh,

As far as the sample kit. You can either buy it or borrow it. You WILL get your money back after the summer if you wish to not keep your kit. So, where is the risk in that again?

As far as rich? My family is barely above poverty at this point in time. My dad was forced to retire at the age of 47 and hasn't worked in over 2 years. He JUST started getting social security and that isn't even that much. I am talking within 5 months. Bills weren't paid on time and they are in a jam. THEY could buy the $999 special. So, again.. YOU failed because you wanted to. Boo-hoo.

[Corcaigh]

You are right, a job in sales isn't for everyone, especially when you feel like the product you are selling is horse****. I guess some people don't have a problem selling things that are too expensive for what they are.

they make you buy your own knives, the ones that you showcase that is, and they don't pay you for the days they train you.

The only people that can make money on this job are hyper motivated lunatics and people that have large and wealthy families.

I am still mad at cut co, mother ****ers.

If you don't believe the product you are selling is of value, then you are con-artist, not a sales person. It's not a good fit for you.

In their business, they expect a very high failure rate, and so paying for training and giving the employees product that may not be returned would be bad business on their part. I'm not saying that their business model is one I'd adopt, but it's perfectly legitimate.

Michael Dell started out selling newspaper subscriptions on commission. He was one of those 'hyper motivated lunatics' who took it on himself to identify what types of families were most likely to buy newspaper subscriptions (new home buyers) and focused his selling efforts on those. He ended up making enough money to fund a small computer company that you might have heard of.

[praise_gibbs]

If you don't believe the product you are selling is of value, then you are con-artist, not a sales person. It's not a good fit for you.

Agreed.

In their business, they expect a very high failure rate, and so not paying for training and giving the employees product that may not be returned would be bad business on their part. I'm not saying that their business model is one I'd adopt, but it's perfectly legitimate.

Exactly. And being a member of the Better Business Bureau.. they can not run the way that they are being accused of. They would not have been in business this long.

Michael Dell started out selling newspaper subscriptions on commission. He was one of those 'hyper motivated lunatics' who took it on himself to identify what types of families were most likely to buy newspaper subscriptions (new home buyers) and focused his selling efforts on those. He ended up making enough money to fund a small computer company that you might have heard of.

You get out of it what you put into it. PERFECT example.

[Prosperity]

You obviously know nothing about cooking. Go to a high-end kitchen store and take a gander at some of the knives. You will see that high-quality knives can be up to 2-300 dollars A POP. $900 for a set is actually a great deal, assuming they are high-quality. Shoot...Target has $100 knives.

the target market was not restaurants, they never ever at one point mentioned restaurants, they talked about housewives and the such. Besides restaurants can do better than buying from cutco, I am sure they get their **** from wholesalers not dumbass kids.

Come on, man. This is a basic tenet of economics and really life in general. You've got to spend money to make money. Learn it, live it, love it.

how about you stop spitting bull**** slogans like they mean something?

"A witty saying proves nothing" -Voltaire

And this comment is pretty out of line, IMO.

boo hoo

[Prosperity]

Too expensive? Are you saying that they are over priced or that you can not afford them?

I am saying that this product only appeals to people who are ignorant of more cost effective alternatives

I can totally understand where you are coming from but, if you think that you can not afford them.. you are in luck! Cutco has a payment plan so you can get the knives that you need now and not worry about paying all of the money up front.

so you are a cut co zombie huh?

I have no use for you at the moment

[praise_gibbs]

I am saying that this product only appeals to people who are ignorant of more cost effective alternatives

so you are a cut co zombie huh?

I have no use for you at the moment

WOW! You are that high on yourself huh? You provide false facts and go off on a rant about how YOU failed. It is not my fault that you sucked at it whereas Spiff as well as myself have found success (so far anyway) with it. How about you work on your dedication and discipline? Your broke under the adversity. How does it feel to quit? Must suck huh?

Cost effective? Like what? Please provide examples.. or is that what we call "ass-talking'?