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...if you thought the lines at the local DMV are long now...just wait...


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I don't even know if I have four forms of ID :)

Driver's license a hassle? It may get worse

Congress weighs 9/11 security measure, but governors oppose

MSNBC staff and news service reports

Updated: 11:03 a.m. ET May 3, 2005WASHINGTON - Americans could soon be required to show four types of ID when applying for a driver's license. Despite objections from governors and state legislatures, Congress is close to passing that requirement as a post-Sept. 11 security measure.

Civil liberties and gun rights supporters, two groups often at odds, also oppose the measure on privacy grounds, saying they fear driver’s licenses will evolve into a national identification card.

Under the legislation, Americans applying for driver’s licenses would have to bring far more information with them to motor vehicle offices. They would be asked to show birth certificates, a photo ID, proof of their Social Security number and a document with full name and home address, according to a copy of the bill obtained by The Associated Press. It was unclear how the legislation would affect the renewal of licenses for citizens.

Verification required

Motor vehicle departments would be required to verify the documents and the Social Security numbers. States still could give licenses to illegal immigrants, but they would have different designs or colors to alert security officers that they are unacceptable as IDs for boarding planes or entering federal buildings.

Governors and state legislatures oppose the provisions as too costly, and force motor vehicle officials to become immigration officers.

"Governors share the concern for increasing the security and integrity of the driver's license and state identification processes," Raymond Scheppach, the head of the National Governors Association, said in a recent statement. But, he added, the proposed legislation "would impose unrealistic technological standards and burdensome verification procedures on states."

Undermine existing work?

The National Conference of State Legislatures estimated the legislation could cost states more than $500 million and undermine existing efforts to make driver's licenses more secure.

Those efforts are centered on recommendations first proposed by the president's Sept. 11 commission. State and federal officials should focus on those rather than dismantling the Sept. 11 Commission reforms and impose a rigid, "one-size-fits-all" mandate, NCSL Executive Director William Pound said in the joint statement with the governors association.

The two groups noted that an existing framework exists through the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 and "provides the opportunity to develop effective national standards."

Congress should "oppose any legislative effort that would curtail this ongoing rulemaking process," the added.

Senate negotiators give green light

Under the federal legislation, which was attached to a bill funding operations in Iraq, states would have three years after the bill becomes law to meet the standards or their driver’s licenses won’t be accepted by federal officers for identification.

The House and Senate passed separate Iraq funding bills, and only the House included the license provision. But Senate negotiators working on a compromise bill on Monday accepted the House provision.

All but one of the 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks had some form of U.S. identification, some of it fraudulent, the Sept. 11 Commission found. The commission recommended the federal government set standards for birth certificates and other identification documents, including driver’s licenses.

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Under the legislation, Americans applying for driver’s licenses would have to bring far more information with them to motor vehicle offices. They would be asked to show birth certificates, a photo ID, proof of their Social Security number and a document with full name and home address, according to a copy of the bill obtained by The Associated Press. It was unclear how the legislation would affect the renewal of licenses for citizens.

My driver's license is my photo ID. If you're 16 and you don't have any photo ID, but you need one to get the license, it could be a vicious circle. I guess you could get an plain ID card or a passport, but this does seem to make it a hassle. It does seem to be a step towards a national ID card. Put everything on one card, Social security, drivers license, ID, passport, voter registration, etc.

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Good...let's hope they start requiring the driver's license, as well as an alternative photo ID requiring the same stringent proof guidlines, when "registered" voters line up to vote. Nothing like having localities and states who don't even ID the "voters" when appearing at the polling precincts.

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Virginia use to use your SSN as your drivers license number, however because of identity theft, they no longer use this method.

I'd written alot but deleted it, just adding potential pitfalls of to much information collected in one easy to lose format. I'm interested in reading where this topic goes

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Originally posted by Skin-N-NY

I already had to go through an act of congress when I got my NY drivers license. I couldn't believe how hard it was, they wouldnt even accept my DD214

An act of Congress, a trip to the social security office, and 4 seperate trips for me.

What the feds need to do is to fix thier own house before slamming the states with this. A drivers licence is supposed to prove you are qualified to drive on the road. A US passport is an identification document. NY holds more value in a phone bill than a US Passport when applying for a new licence. That tells me the passport is a real easy document to forge. And the requirements of the obtaining one, rather low. Fix the passport first.


PS...if I spelled anything wrong...sorry, but I got four hours of sleep today....and I cant hit the sack until 8am.....

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Originally posted by codeorama

Why not anal probes? That would be very secure...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Aliens already do that. But not for security reasons.

Do anuses have individual indentifying features?

And if they did, could you imagine what it would be like if you were law enforcement and had to do a search through the "anus data bank" to try and ID a suspect?

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Civil liberties and gun rights supporters, two groups often at odds

I wasn't aware of this...Any libertarian or right-wing civil liberties groups would be for the 2nd and any 'civil liberties' groups that opposed it are overstepping their stated mission and such groups often find 'rights' that were never a part of the Constitution.

Again, though, an odd line.

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In Fl, kids in 6th grade and up have a photo ID. When they enter high school, they get a new one, so the photo ID isn't a stumbling block. A school report card, or high school transcript works as an official document with full name and address. If a kid doesn't have a SS # by driving age, something isn't right, and unless they were hatched or from another planet, they should have a birth cirt.

It doesn't seem to be to hard to fit the bill, and I think it's a good idea to be honest. We have long running licenses here. I don't have to renew till 2012, and can renew by mail or online.

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I actually support a national ID, because I do think that's a legitimate function of the government, and because I think it, like a passport, is something that's best done at the national level.

However, I've read some things about this bill that really bother me.

The reason the article refers to "according to a copy of the bill obtained by The Associated Press" is because the bill is being conducted in secret. Supposedly, the full Senate is scheduled to vote on it without it ever being read into the record before the vote.

Also supposedly, the bill requires all the information on the card to me machine readable, but supposedly Homeland Security is going to decide which machine readable technology will be used, later. (Supposedly, they really want RFID.)

[tinfoil hat]We already appear to have some form of national database who's purpose is to allow people who won't identify themselves to prevent people who's political purity index isn't high enough from attending taxpayer-funded public events. With this new technology, they could seperate out those dangerous people who wrote a letter to the editor without causing a bottlenect at the security barrire. (And away from witnesses.)[/tinfoil hat]

What really bothers me about a machine-readable card is when the card is combined with existing leglislation that says that

[*]Any business is allowed to capture any personal information that they are capable of getting, and is allowed to do anything they want with the information once they get it.

[*]The government is allowed to capture any information that private industry has.


In short, IMO, the big threat isn't the card, it's the laws that have been written specifically to benefit the privacy invasion industry.

(To use a more specific example, I have no problem tigh the government issuing me a secure form of ID, nor with a merchant using that ID to verify that I'm not using a stolen credit card. I have a problem with the merchant, as long as he's got the cards, capturing my name, address, ssn, driving record, birth date, military status, health insurance coverage, and credit card number, so they can link it to a list of every book I've ever bought, which groceries I like, and how many dogs I own. And then sell the information to anybody they want.)

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I have to agree with you, Larry.

After scrutinizing my own logic, I realized that a national ID, in and of itself, is not a violation of my principles.

However, you must have known, as I did, that such an ID and accompanying information on our activities was soon to follow. It's the problem with government. They will not just 'make sure you have secure ID.' Someone is going to make a dossier on you, or perhaps flag the authorities when you make too many purchases of libertarian or 2nd amendment books.

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I guess the part that really ticks me, is when the government forces me to give them information, and then tries to sell it.

The State of Florida recently tried to sell the complete drivers' licence database, including the pictures, for less than a penny a piece, to a private company. (It was stopped when the press found out about it.)

The business where I work has an absentee owner. (The owner doesn't work there.) We must get 6 phone calls a day where we pick up the phone and somebody on the other end says "Hi! Let me speak to *****". Now, we all know that anybody who actually knows *****, knows that he's never there. Every single one of those callers is somebody who bought a list of telephone numbers of businesses, and the names of the owners, so they can pull their "Hi! I bet the owner of your company was just thinking how much he wanted to drop what he's doing so he could receive a cold call from a telemarketer who won't identify himself or the company he's representing!"

And I would be willing to bet, they got the list of business and owners, from the State Corporation Commission.

I must get three pieces of junk mail a week that has my home address (not the PO box where all of my credit cards and bank statements have gone, from the day I opened them), from people who know the year, make, and model of the car I drive. The only place that address appears is on my drivers license and the title of my car.

I've read articles from people who observe that, when a baby is born, you get a birth certificate. And within a week, you will be receiving junk mail for baby supplies.

(I'm remembering a commercial. I think it was for an ISP. Scene is a bar. Nice looking girl writes something on a piece of paper, smiles, and hands it to a guy. Two other guys at the bar look inquiringly at the first guy. First guy: "Two bucks?". Other two nod, reach for their wallets. Before the girl even leaves the bar.)

It tickes me knowing, every time I use plastic at the grocery store, or Circuit City, or wherever, I'm being tracked, and my only defense is to pay cash. (And knowing that the technology for the security camera to record the license plate off my car is likely only a few years away from being economical, so even that won't work for long.)

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