Country homeowners take up arms (Britain)

[Ghost of]

Until there are pre-crime units, exactly how is crime prevention(other than patrols and sentencing) anything BUT something in the hands of the citizenry? Has Britain so backslid into Statism that they consider even the ATTEMPT at defense from criminals to be vigilanteism and immoral?

Gotta love the 'surprise' that people buying weapons weren't underworld figures. The underworld figures aren't buying STUN GUNS, first of all. Secondly, are they so blinded by this bizarre form of Statism that they don't know that people feel compelled to DEFEND THEMSELVES, even in a society with a bunch of laws designed to disarm them and render them helpless in the face of the ensuing criminal wave?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1564513,00.html

Country homeowners take up arms

By Stewart Tendler and Daniel McGrory

AFTER a neighbour was robbed and beaten at home, a Sussex businessman decided to take crime prevention into his own hands. The wealthy, self-employed father of two bought a stun gun during a working trip to France, which he sent in the post to his home close to Brighton.

He is among an increasing number of British homeowners arming themselves against the risk of attack from intruders.

Most have used the internet to make their illicit purchases from France and Germany. As well as stun guns, these include CS gas canisters and replica handguns, which, using materials that can be bought at any DIY store, can easily be converted into lethal weapons.

Customs officers say that they have seen a six-fold increase in the number of stun guns being seized at ports and airports. Last year, Customs intercepted 672 stun guns, which can paralyse victims with a 50,000-volt shock. Those found carrying the weapons all told officers that they wanted them for their own protection.

A Scotland Yard investigation into a French company selling arms on the internet found that many of its British customers were not underworld figures but respectable mortgage-payers from the shires. (That's it, these police are not only violating the right to self-defense, but they're completely stupid too. -Ghost) Raids on customers’ addresses took officers to stockbroker belts, gated private estates and properties costing several millions. The weaponry seized included shotguns, ammunition and automatic pistols. A number of the weapons’ owners are still under police caution while prosecutors consider their next move.

Senior police officers admitted that they were suprised at the numbers of homeowners who were contemplating taking the law into their own hands. The buyers were not only confused over what the law says about their own protection, but also did not realise that some items that are freely available and legal in France and Germany are not permitted here.(they ban stun guns too, in Britain?!-Ghost)

The Sussex businessman who, realising that he was in possession of an illegal weapon, did not wish to give his name, said: “I don’t consider myself a criminal. At least three homes in my neighbourhood have had intruders while the occupants were there, and I thought this would be a deterrent.”

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that police had no idea how many of the replica weapons were in circulation.

Some internet servers have blocked websites selling weapons, but police sources say specialist publications on sale in Britain carry more obscure outlets that supply weaponry legal in many European countries but banned here under the Firearms Act.

A police spokesman said: “Those homeowners we found in possession of weapons told us they purchased them online by simply typing the word ‘gun’ into a search engine.”

The Scotland Yard report came after Operation Bembridge, the first national crackdown on illegal firearms and weapons bought on the internet. Details of British buyers were obtained by the FBI after a request by the National Criminal Intelligence Service.

French police also acted against the company supplying the weaponry. In London, 11 men were arrested after raids on 18 addresses. More than 20 weapons were seized(18 addresses rendered a little more than one weapon per address. Real armories they got goin' there. Fiendish villains! - Ghost)

Illegal possession of firearms carries a minimum five-year sentence.

[stevenaa]

Oh the irony!!!! Those who would take our guns away should take note. It is unthinkable to me that I would be denied the ability to protect myself in my own home. I would certainly be one of those taking illegal steps to arm myself.

[Thiebear]

They must not use Google in Britain... To get Stun Gun to come up you have to go through a couple of pages.

Now if you Type "Stun Gun" its amazing how fast IT comes up .

Reason #241 why after going to a couple of countries.. I prefer it here.. Even Stun Guns protecting yourself/family in your own house make YOU the lawbreaker...

Ohh well, maybe if they just explain it right on the news, the burglars will realize they don't have weapons and leave the alone.

[smsmith40]

Yes, If only I lived in the gun-owning utopia of the United States then I could have a burglary rate that is half that of violent old Britain.

Unfortunately I would have to put up with the fact that I would be 25 times more likely to be shot to death, 11 times more likely to be the victim of a major assault and my wife would be twice as likely to be raped.

Maybe I'll give it a miss.

Private ownership of handguns in the UK was outlawed for a damn good reason. Thomas Hamilton walked into a school in Dunblane on the morning of MArch 13, 1996 and killed 16 five and six yr old children with two legally held firearms. It will never be allowed to happen again.

Since we outlawed handguns there have been at last 15 school shootings in the US leaving 40 dead students and staff.

I know which society has the right ideas on firearm proliferation.

Statistics

[smsmith40]

By the way, since private ownership of handguns was made illegal in the UK rates of burglary have reduced significantly

(30% drop in recorded burglaries, 44% according to the British Crime Survey which takes into account incidents not reported to the police)

Please do some research before you start making infantile conclusions.

Do you have ANY credible evidence of the "crime wave" you mentioned since the ban on handguns ? Or did you just presume nobody would actually check the statisitics?

UK Home Office Statistics (Very Large PDF)

[sonsofwashington]

Get a dog.

[Skins24]

Good article about the history of guns in the UK.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59866,00.html

Another article about the rise in crime the UK has seen

http://www.politicos.co.uk/item.jsp?ID=5063

Do you have ANY credible evidence of the "crime wave" you mentioned since the ban on handguns ?

Overall crime may finally be lowering in the UK, but gun crimes have not. Why is that?

From the site you linked:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/guncrime/index.html

.....Even so, we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years, and are doing everything we can to tackle it.

Another (older) article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

[smsmith40]

Skins 24

Please be carefull about selective quotations. The entire paragraph that you quoted from the home office was

Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in this country is relatively low – less than half of 1 percent of all crime recorded by the police – and in the year ending 31 March 2004, there was:

a 15 per cent reduction in homicides involving firearms

a 13 per cent reduction in robberies involving firearms

Even so, we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years, and are doing everything we can to tackle it.

As you can see gun crime is REDUCING. THere was an initial rise in in the period 97-01. This is now going back down. THe fact that the government are not complacent is a good thing.

The incorrect suggestion made by Ghost was that the ban in handguns led to a crime wave because ordinary people did not have access to weapons. That is patently false. His stated example of home invasions and burglaries have decreased since 1997.

As for the history lesson from Foxnews, I suggest that fact that they make no mentions of the situation since the 1997 ban may be due to the fact that the statisitics do not fit their pro-gun worldview.

[smsmith40]

Apologies. Double post deleted

[DjTj]

Originally posted by sonsofwashington

Get a dog.

:laugh: or a tiger:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3166010.stm

[Skins24]

Originally posted by smsmith40

As you can see gun crime is REDUCING. THere was an initial rise in in the period 97-01. This is now going back down. THe fact that the government are not complacent is a good thing.

No, homicides and robberies involving guns are reducing.

But overall it says plain as day: "we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years."

[Cdowwe]

I wonder why the citizens of Britain dont trust their police who carry around billyclubs.

[Ghost of]

smsmith

Please dude. You're more likely to suffer some crime other than murder in the UK than in the US. People's homes are invaded with impunity and they suffer assaults and the indignity of feeling unsafe in their home.

Crime has escalated in the UK. Is all of that the gun laws? No. But it's the ATTITUDE towards SELF-DEFENSE, which no doubt has emboldened your criminal element.

And apparently, it's not just firearms that are outlawed in your crime-free, gun-verboten utopia.

Heard of Switzerland, by the way?

I know people want to defend their homeland, but Britain is no longer the bastion of the old ideas of ENglish liberty. You are serfs and you are ruled by the State.

Good luck with that.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Skins24

No, homicides and robberies involving guns are reducing.

But overall it says plain as day: "we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years."

That would be a great point if gun crime wasn't less then hlaf of one percent of all their crime. When numbers get that low a rise is almost assured.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Destino

That would be a great point if gun crime wasn't less then hlaf of one percent of all their crime. When numbers get that low a rise is almost assured.

When all you need is a club or chains to invade a defenseless person's home, why add on the extra potential sentence by using a gun?

Also, there's been a spate of articles about the increased use by criminal gangs of fully auto weapons. So, perhaps they are not robbing someone with that, but they are protecting their black market trade or other activities with firearms.

But again, when people are seemingly not allowed any means of defense, you could just pack a knife and do the same crime. Especially when a handicapped man using a weapon to defend himself against ruffians finds himself in trouble for daring to use a weapon in Britain.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

When all you need is a club or chains to invade a defenseless person's home, why add on the extra potential sentence by using a gun?

Also, there's been a spate of articles about the increased use by criminal gangs of fully auto weapons. So, perhaps they are not robbing someone with that, but they are protecting their black market trade or other activities with firearms.

But again, when people are seemingly not allowed any means of defense, you could just pack a knife and do the same crime. Especially when a handicapped man using a weapon to defend himself against ruffians finds himself in trouble for daring to use a weapon in Britain.

Personally I think the drug war has more to do with criminals out gunning everyone else then gun laws do. Maybe if you took away their access to easy money they wouldn't be so well armed.

I don't know why you are so crazy about this gun thing. Seems obvious to me we have much to do in the US about our love affair with violence before we worry about the systems everywhere else. Our CHILDREN are increasingly violent and I've yet to see anyone come up with anything more then "treat them like adults" to stop this, which isn't a solution as much as a angry reaction. Let's clean up our own house first shall we?

I agree that you should have legal access to fire arms. But I can respect the UK stance against them because people are growing increasingly violent these days and guns do anything but reduce this trend.

[smsmith40]

Yes Ghost

If you take out muder, serious assult, and rape then the crime rate in the UK is higher than the US.

However, your original statement that the lack of guns among ordinary citizens was leading to an increase in burglaries when the facts are that burglaries have reduced since the introduction of the ban on handguns.

Can we accept the simple fact that the ban on handguns has not led to an increase in burglaries?

In fact the upward trend in total recorded crime pre-dated the ban and if anything, has flattened since 97.

[stevenaa]

" don't know why you are so crazy about this gun thing. Seems obvious to me we have much to do in the US about our love affair with violence before we worry about the systems everywhere else. Our CHILDREN are increasingly violent and I've yet to see anyone come up with anything more then "treat them like adults" to stop this, which isn't a solution as much as a angry reaction. Let's clean up our own house first shall we?"

As soon as parents start parenting, children will be less violent. That means being involved and keeping violent games and entertainment out of their hands. But, based on the parents I see on a daily basis at my children's school, I'm not holding my breath.