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Trade Davis & sign both J. Anderson and K-J Carter?


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I've been thinking about PCinOz's posts and the seeming inevitability of losing Stephen Davis after this season. Thing is, if we lose Davis after the season, we'd make things worse by playing him in 2002 and triggering incentive clauses that would make the cap hit even worse in 2003.

Obviously it seems risky to toss the rushing game to Betts with no plan "B". Re-signing K-J Carter is also risky, both because of his potential for injury and the fact that he hasn't proven himself as an every-down back. Signing Jamal Anderson is risky because he hasn't proven he can come back from blowing out both knees and stay healthy.

But what about doing all of the above? Why not trade Davis NOW while we can get something really good for him and contain the salary cap damage. Then sign K-J as our third-down back and Jamal Anderson as our first-down / short-yardage back. Both should be relatively cheap. Then Betts can be worked in as a backup to both, eventually taking over as an every-down back in 2003, or sharing duties with K-J.

Since Betts can back up both Anderson and Carter, the downside risk of injury is greatly reduced. Anderson and Carter should be fairly cheap acquisitions, given their injury risk. So this wouldn't break the bank.

Bottom line, I'm a big believer in facing the inevitable quickly. If we're going to lose Davis anyway, why spend a year with Davis in Spurrier's new system when we can develop and test Betts? Why get rid of K-J Carter when he might be a good long-term Spurrier guy? Why pay Davis huge bucks and ruin the future cap when the trio of Anderson, Carter and Betts can probably provide the same overall production (maybe a bit better pass-catching, maybe a tad less overall total rushing yards)?

If I'm the Skins, I have a couple serious meetings with Davis and his agent, explain where the team is prepared to go in terms of trading him, and if we can't rework the contract with Davis before June 1, we deal him.

No disrespect to Davis -- I love him. But we can't let his contract ruin the team for the next three years.

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I don't think it's a given we'll lose Davis next season. It seems to me we'll be as apt to pay him as much as anyone else. He's known he would have to re-work his deal after this season, so any hardline posturing is at this point is probably just early negotiating tactics.

And don't forget, those incentives that we might pay for next year could bring us wins this year. The East is still not the strongest division in the world and a few wins could be the difference between first and third.

IMHO, you ride him hard again this year and let the chips fall where they may for next season.

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If we are forced to cut Davis (is there any trade possible with his cap number?), I sure don't want to go into the season relying on LaDell Betts, Kenny Watson and Rock Cartwright who have 0 NFL carries among them.

Anderson - when he was healthy - was a workhorse. We've gotten real lucky in the past with Terry Allen and it's worth considering.

If Ladell Betts doesn't work out, I will be might upset over the loss of a second round pick.

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Two excuses that don't pass muster regarding Davis are:

1. There's plenty of time to do a deal, before or after the season.

2. It takes time to do a deal. There's not enough time and not enough leverage to get a deal done now.

Looking at the situation, the team will lose leverage once June 1 passes, lose leverage again once the season starts, and lose leverage if Davis triggers performance incentives. The *right* time to do a deal is now. After June 1, the potential deals and consequences of not doing a deal go downhill in terms of the team's perspective.

As for #2, it doesn't take time to do a deal. Huge company mergers are negotiated over dinner. This deal can get done before June 1 if Davis and his agent seriously believe the team will trade Davis before June 1 if no deal is in place.

We can get a new deal done before June 1. If we can't, trade him, before June 1.

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Doesn't it benefit Davis if nothing gets done? If so, he gets cut in a year and signs a huge contract with some other team. If he cuts a deal before then, with the Skins, he would be in effect denying himself the opportunity to be the star free agent (attention, $$$, people kissing your a$$).

Basically, what is SD's incentive to restructure?

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you can argue the merits of a move for Davis, but the idea of signing two injury prone players who are now on the fringe of the NFL to try and replace an elite player in his prime to me AFTER that deal to me is just ludicrous.

Jamal Anderson is a cripple. He just doesn't have the legs to play in the NFL anymore. 2+ years of chronic injury problems convinced Atlanta they had to move on. Anderson hasn't really produced in the league since NORV was the coach of the Redskins. :)

Carter made a nice showing for 63 carries last year. He started ZERO games and was counted on for 25 carries ZERO times.

He averaged his 4.9 yards running draws on third and 15 with defenses backed up to prevent a first down conversion.

That is what Kelvin Bryant did for us in the mid-1980's.

The problem came in when we asked him to start a few games. Each time he was very productive until he got hurt.

And that happened EACH time he started. As I remember he didn't finish any of those games.

After a season of these ups and downs, the Skins resigned themselves to the fact Bryant would make his plays and contribute in spurts but was not a workhorse back or one the team could count on each week.

And that is Carter. Except Carter has not proven to be as durable even as Bryant. :doh:

The Redskins may have to make a decision on Davis but hopefully the result of that decision will be a better outcome than the one suggested here.

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I think Davis is gonna have a big year and we're gonna pay for it dearly. Does well, have to justify his salary, our cap is screwed. Puts up decent numbers, still got to renegotiate, cuz can't afford him then.

I wouldn't want Jamal or Carter as our RB's. Too injry prone, or history of it. I guess the Redskins really thought about Davis' contract by drafting Betts.

But would the offensive system require a back like Davis, or can it easily be plugged by anybody else?

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ASF, in retro to what I held firmly, I would say you are right. Is it also possible with the silence in Redskins Park these days, that that is exactly what Dan, Mendes and Davis' agent are doing.

Yes the the deadlines that pass each time a deal isn't done will make it the equivalent of Trotter leaving the Eagles!

I dread to think of playing against him, on a very disliked divsion opponent's team. Play we must, but dang, either get it done, or immediately and I mean immediately line and lace the cofers for a major acquisition next season. Yeah, but who? and what's in the stingy draft for RB's in 2003?

Sign this dude to a restructured contract. Hopefully he won't let his agent tell him to stall past Training camp.

I am too old fashioned in business I guess, thinking that there is give and take and GRATITUDE for the opportunity to stay as the main RB even though he's been under 4 head coaches. Somewhere along the way, there are some coaches that easily would have traded him for two players and a draft choice.

He also should be more than thankful, he's still not JUST A BLOCKING BACK!

Again, that's me talking and just like my own profession when given a chance, I showed my grattitude by allowing the company to make the best team moves possible, thus we have grown now, with all the employees allowing this. Now we all have improved to the next level, with me looking at an income that has an automatic size increase. If I had gotten greedy, then I would be out of a job and looking at a slim market to pimp my skills!

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Does anyone know any details on what Davis wants to be paid if/when they renegotiate? It seems like a foregone conclusion that he is going to try to milk the Skins for all he can. I'm sure he'll want to be one of the best paid backs in the league, but he deserves that. He is one of the best backs and he's worked very hard for the Skins. He's worked hard in whatever position/offense the've put him in. How do we know he wouldn't be great in SS's offenses. Catch 6 or 7 passes in the first half and grind it out in the second half. He might find running alot easier if the passing game gels and he's not facing 8 man fronts every week. If the pieces a fall together under SS's system, he could put up Marshall Faulk type numbers receiving and still get his 1300 or so rushing. Bottom line (to me anyway) is that he is the only stud we have at skilled positions on offense. We lose/trade him and we have no proven gamebreakers on O. I love great defense, but you've got to score some points to win. Renegotiate a fair deal with Davis and drop some dead weight elsewhere(maybe Smith or Westbrook).

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Sometimes you have to pay the piper for someone you know can deliver the goods. Trying to trade him and sign retreads I don't think is an answer (see the Deion fiasco). I think he's going to have a good year and will want to stick around to taste more of the success he knows we are going to have with SOS around.

JA and KJC aren't the guys we need is SOS's offense. I don't know about KJC, but I do know that JA isn't a 'positive' influence and we don't need attitude problems at this point.

This is why we have capologists anyway- to figure this stuff out and help us keep the best players possible.

Doesn't it make you mad to know that without the cap - it's be like the days of the Squire (bow when you say that) when we'd spend anything to bring us a winner? I know Danny would do the same.

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Originally posted by GatorEye

Sometimes you have to pay the piper for someone you know can deliver the goods. Trying to trade him and sign retreads I don't think is an answer (see the Deion fiasco).

Give me a break. The problem with Deion wasn't the body but the contract. I'm suggesting offering J.A. and KJC contracts close to the minimum.

I think he's going to have a good year and will want to stick around to taste more of the success he knows we are going to have with SOS around.

Davis isn't an idiot. If you bother to really look at the numbers, you'll see that he can force the team to release him at the end of 2003, collect from the Skins, then get a new signing bonus with another team, for a total of around $20 million. It's nice to be sentimental, but I'm not sure I'd walk away from a $20 million payday.

That said, I like Davis a lot and I hope the team can redo his deal. What I'm suggesting is that the only time the team has a *chance* of redoing the deal at reasonable terms is now, when they have maximum leverage. The leverage they have is the ability to trade his butt to some god-awful pit like Cincinnati.

JA and KJC aren't the guys we need is SOS's offense. I don't know about KJC, but I do know that JA isn't a 'positive' influence and we don't need attitude problems at this point.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've been here in Atlanta throughout JA's tenure and he does not have an attitude problem. He didn't do himself a lot of favors after the Falcons signed Warrick Dunn, because he vocally questioned Reeves's promise that Dunn would get "20 touches a game". It was the promise that bothered him, and I understand that. But the guy has generally been good-spirited and certainly carried the team in its 1998 Superbowl season. When healthy, the guy hits like ton of bricks. He also delivered the most devastating straight arm I've ever seen in one game, sending the would-be tackler literally flying backward in the air.

I'm betting that KJC fits SOS's offense pretty well. JA shouldn't be much worse a fit than Davis.

In any case, the reason to consider these guys is the MONEY and the CAP. This isn't some kind of true-love Harlequin romance. The team needs to be realistic and plan for the future. Unless they can get Davis to redo his deal soon, the best thing to do from the team's perspective is to trade him.

I'm tired of all these "just play 2002 and figure out the rest later" posts. That attitude is exactly why we have to rebuild every year.

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Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan

Give me a break. The problem with Deion wasn't the body but the contract.

I don't know what games you were watching but Deion got burnt more times than the toast at a Tallahassee Waffle House! I wouldn't keep him for the minimum!

That said, I like Davis a lot and I hope the team can redo his deal. What I'm suggesting is that the only time the team has a *chance* of redoing the deal at reasonable terms is now, when they have maximum leverage. The leverage they have is the ability to trade his butt to some god-awful pit like Cincinnati.

I agree the time to rework the deal is now because we and he won't need the distraction as the season wears on. I just don't think he's THAT easily replaceable by retreads. BTW- if you'd be looking to trade for players instead of picks to get some immediate return - what would we get from Cincinnati?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've been here in Atlanta throughout JA's tenure and he does not have an attitude problem. He didn't do himself a lot of favors after the Falcons signed Warrick Dunn, because he vocally questioned Reeves's promise that Dunn would get "20 touches a game". It was the promise that bothered him, and I understand that. But the guy has generally been good-spirited and certainly carried the team in its 1998 Superbowl season. When healthy, the guy hits like ton of bricks. He also delivered the most devastating straight arm I've ever seen in one game, sending the would-be tackler literally flying backward in the air.

This is interesting. I won't say where I heard it, but I believe what I heard from sources hard to argue with. It was mentioned in short that his attitude had been less than stellar. Perhaps it had been because of the rehab he'd been through so perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to judge, but there must be something there. It won't do us any good to go back and forth on this point as we've both derived an opinion from our own experiences.

In any case, the reason to consider these guys is the MONEY and the CAP. This isn't some kind of true-love Harlequin romance. The team needs to be realistic and plan for the future. Unless they can get Davis to redo his deal soon, the best thing to do from the team's perspective is to trade him.

I'm tired of all these "just play 2002 and figure out the rest later" posts. That attitude is exactly why we have to rebuild every year.

While I mostly agree with this I will say that sometimes you can't continue to keep looking down the road toward the future. On the surface this seems like a stupid statement. However sometimes I think IF DONE WISELY, it doesn't hurt to roll the dice on one season and go for gold. If you keep trading high profile players and replacing them with pieces you hope will add up to more than the sum of the parts - you'll end up being mired in mediocrity. While we may be 'paying' for the big spending spree of a few years ago - Danny rolled the dice that he could bring home the championship that year.

Personally I'd rather take a Super Bowl win and a few years of being average than being close all the time, but never being able to get over the hump.

All this being said - I say we need to get a reasonable deal done with Davis ASAP.

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Trade Davis for Jamal and KJ?

Hmm....

With the players on our offense right now, you do that and you go from playoff contender to sub .500.

I really can't picture Carter or Jamal 'Injury' Anderson leading this team to where it needs to be.

Why didn't you say something like trade him for someone like Eddie George or E. James or something? That would be the only trade that would compensate for losing a back like Davis.

The team needs to be realistic and plan for the future

Jamal the future? :rotflmao:

KJ the future? :laugh:

Get real...

Even if it's not Davis, it's not these two...

I'm tired of all these "just play 2002 and figure out the rest later" posts. That attitude is exactly why we have to rebuild every year.

???

When was the last time we did that?

Rebuild every year?

It's more like restructuring rather than rebuilding and it's hardly because of player contracts...

The best thing to do now is "just play 2002 and figure out the rest later".

With stability comes success.

If we lose Davis in 2003, then we lose him. But why lose one of the best RBs in the league before you need to. That doesn't make any sense.

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I think trading Davis would be a great idea!!!! We don't want Jamal to run for us, though. He is a injury prone fat boy. If we get rid of Davis we could sign Freeman or McCardell. Lets give Betts a chance, i think he will suprise a lot of people with his talent.

SD is a knee injury waiting to happen. He is not worth it. Spurrier don't need him anyways.

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RE: Trading Davis

I was wondering when did the CBA change for trade situations?

Last year, when Deion was giving us problems, I looked up the rules about cutting a player after June 1. If he was waived and picked up off the wire (is picked up under the same contract which takes about 24 hours), the WHOLE un-amoritized bonus hits, if not, then we see the process we've seen. (This is one of the reasons team spiked salaries as it helps getting the player through waivers)

The waiver issue pointed me to the trade issue. That is, if the player is picked of the waiver-wire, it works the same as if the player were traded THAT DAY. From this, I would conclude that trading Davis after June 1 would be the same (cap-wise) as trading him now.

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Stephen Davis is a warrior. I don't know about any of you, but I would rather find a way to pay him and play him. I do not want Carter, whom I like a lot, Anderson, who has had two blown knees in two years, or Betts, who I have serious doubts about until proven otherwise, starting for this team.

Stephen Davis is the man, one of the greatest backs that this team has ever had, and he should retire a Redskin.

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The Redskins are not going to sign any of these geezer running backs or guys that are as brittle as a porcelain glass. :)

It's Davis and Betts, Gillespie, Watson, etc........for 2002.

After that we will have to see.

The idea that you can go from a top 5 peformer to a has-been and still be productive at a key spot like RB is just absurd.

That would be like the Rams trading Warner for Jay Fiedler.

No way Fiedler leads the Rams to 13 or 14 wins. :)

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I was under the impression that trading Davis would be rather difficult as well as the team that trades for him picks up all his remaining annual salaries for the remainder of his contract, which are rather large even without any incentives or bonuses. No team will trade for a 29 yr old RB not named Marshall Faulk that's due 7.5 million - 11 million in the upcoming years. So it appears Davis will have to restructure his contract if he gets traded as well. Professional athletes have given me little reason recently to believe they will restructure their contracts and give up potentially huge paydays for the sake of their team. It sucks, but that's the nature of sports these days. Hopefully Davis is one of the few that is different and he takes one for the team. If not, I don't think he's tradable due to his contract and he'll just wait out the Skins to make a decision come June 1st next year and then go sign a big deal somewhere else.

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