kappaluvacee Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 wouldn't best QB/WR combo have a prerequisite of being the best at the respective position. Manning/Harrison then Culpepper/Moss .............................................The others are too far behind those two to name.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by kappaluvacee wouldn't best QB/WR combo have a prerequisite of being the best at the respective position. Manning/Harrison then Culpepper/Moss .............................................The others are too far behind those two to name.... I disagree on Culpepper. Moss IS the best in the NFL! Just look at all those airballs DC has been throwing to Carter and Moss in his career. Amazing talent to throw to. Better than anyone else has had over the last 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 i cant think of one starting QB in the NFL who is worse than McNabb.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by illone i cant think of one starting QB in the NFL who is worse than McNabb.... That has to be the most asinine statement I have EVER read on a message board! :40oz: :40oz: :40oz: :stupid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 face it man, mcnabb is overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Owens is going to make McNugget look better but Owens better have ab's of steel if he is going to be fetching passes at ankle height for 16 weeks. Owens/McNabb is NOT even in the preseason top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I guess he was carried by the defense last year? You know, the one which lost 5 defensive linemen, Dawkins for 9 games, Troy Vincent for 6, Bobby Taylor for 7, Carlos Emmons for the last two regular season games and the entire playoffs. Brian Westbrook for the playoffs, Jermaine Mayberry for 8 regular AND the playoffs. Listen up Rush, if Ramsey had the crap that Mcnabb had to throw to, he would have been knocked out MUCH earlier in the season. That's fact! So spin that around a little while and see what you come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 like i said, mark my words eagles fans owens is going to expose McNabb for for the F R A U D that he is not hating on McChoker, just stating the obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Blazers21 Sorry, Art, I don't think you're seeing the big picture here...... This has officially become at least a 7 page thread. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by KevinthePRF This has officially become at least a 7 page thread. :doh: :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky*13 Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 It will all play out on the field,until then its all just speculation. If the eagles come out flat to start the season,man will it be fun to watch T.O. turn into his natural crybaby self.:eaglesuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Hmmmm, not having Bailey in the secondary really stings right about now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by HeHateMe Hmmmm, not having Bailey in the secondary really stings right about now... how so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles_Legendz Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Art Yeah, that's what he said. No running game. You know the saying, if you have two of something it means you don't have a single one? If you have two running backs to carry the load, it means you don't have a single one who can. Your three-headed monster hardly blew the doors off people. Your two-headed monster isn't likely to start doing that either. You must have missed all of last season Art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I suppose if you just add up pure talent + pure talent, McNabb to Owens would be considered #2. But I've seen McNabb bounce far too many balls to think that Owens would be able to elevate his game further than it was in San Francisco. In fact, I'd be suprised if he can somehow match it. Garcia was a better passer than McNabb will ever be. Art brings up a great point. McNabb just isn't a terribly efficient QB. When he's on he's about as hard to stop as any QB in the league. But he just has far too many games where he goes 20 for 38 for about 180 yards. How long until Owens starts pissing and moaning about poorly thrown balls? I'll give it till the 3rd pre-season game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1SkinzFan Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by phanatic Listen up Rush, if Ramsey had the crap that Mcnabb had to throw to, he would have been knocked out MUCH earlier in the season. That's fact! So spin that around a little while and see what you come up with. Fact? How can you call something a fact if it NEVER happened? All of these speculations is pretty funny. FACT IS, even WITH the injuries, Andy Reid still kept a cohesive defensive unit, and another FACT IS, if it wasn't for Brian Westbrook, you might have a few more losses than you did. How about how McNabb CHOKED against the Panthers? Or how about how he CHOKED against the Bucs in '02? Maybe he beat the Panthers in the regular season last year, but that didn't get him to the big game. Go ahead though, blame it on the OPINION of yours that he had nobody to throw the ball to, seamingly enough I think the reason why Pinkston and Mitchell didn't have many catches was because McNabb completed more balls to the ground than he did his own guys. As far as Ramsey goes, even if he had the Eagles receivers last year, he still WOULD HAVE lasted as long as he did, simply because he had no time to get the damn ball to his own receivers that he did have. I agree, Owens CAN make McNabb more consistent, not to say that he will though, but GREAT QBs make receivers better, just look at McNair with Mason. Why couldn't McNabb do that with Freddie Mitchell? Who has potential might I add. So yes it can be a good pairing, but it looks better on paper than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Blazers, the only problem I see with your post is it's not true. Yes, Staley had the numbers you provided. Westbrook did. Buckhalter did. And, yes, their total added up to what you said it did. But, that total didn't add up to the ninth best run offense in football not counting McNabb's totals. The total of your running backs added up to No. 26 (26th if you calcuate it against whole other teams. Probably 20th or so in terms of straight running back production) or something, right. I mean, that's wher 1612 yards would have fallen if you are going to exclude McNabb. And when you measure how effective your running game is, you have to exclude McNabb because his yards aren't really part of your running game. His yards are very special yards. The sort of yards that extend drives and can't be game planned against to be sure. But, simply looking at your running backs, you guys had 1,613 yards from the position of running back or full back. The Redskins had 1,505. Also remember, the Redskins were considered a passing team. You were winning games and capable of doing more running. We were losing games -- though often close -- causing us to have to abandon that more frequently from game situations. And I'm not writing you about how dynamic our guys proved to be. How come you are to me? You lack a single running back capable of carrying the load. Reid knows this and designed a system to get the most possible production from what was a fairly deep group of backs. Kudos to him. Still, the fact that you lack a single guy you can count on is not a sign of strength. That you lost one of the key guys in that rotation doesn't improve your situation that we know of. And, again, if you have two running backs it means you don't have one. That's what it means. We have one. You can have your two. Or three. And I'm still going to be happier with one with Gibbs as my coach. You don't count a three-back rotation or a two-back rotation as a single running back. You count the rotation as a rotation. The fact is your running backs produced a pedestrian 1,613 yards rushing. If you think that's something that scares me, you're wrong. Owens' ability to improve McNabb causes me some concern. But, individually your running backs don't stand out. Collectively they were rather pedestrian for running back production. And you lost a chunk of that production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1SkinzFan Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by phanatic I guess he was carried by the defense last year? You know, the one which lost 5 defensive linemen, Dawkins for 9 games, Troy Vincent for 6, Bobby Taylor for 7, Carlos Emmons for the last two regular season games and the entire playoffs. Brian Westbrook for the playoffs, Jermaine Mayberry for 8 regular AND the playoffs. Listen up Rush, if Ramsey had the crap that Mcnabb had to throw to, he would have been knocked out MUCH earlier in the season. That's fact! So spin that around a little while and see what you come up with. Something else I wanted to say about this quote phanatic is this. Forgot it in my last post, but I want to know something, please help me out. Why do almost 9 out of 10 Eagle fans give DM ALL of the credit for their success? I'm sure Andy Reid doesn't have anything to do with it. [sarcastically] Try taking the coaching staff into consideration when you look at the success of a team. With all of that talent out on defense, they still won games, and not solely because of McNothing either, simply put, because of ANDY REID and his brilliant coaching staff. Unlike McNothing not being a Top tier QB in the league, Andy Reid and his staff are DEFINATELY among the best in the NFL. Now you spin that one around a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaganaut Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 McNabb isn't a passing quarterback so it won't make as big a difference as some people think. This is about saving face from the lost championship game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by No1SkinzFan Something else I wanted to say about this quote phanatic is this. Forgot it in my last post, but I want to know something, please help me out. Why do almost 9 out of 10 Eagle fans give DM ALL of the credit for their success? I'm sure Andy Reid doesn't have anything to do with it. [sarcastically] Try taking the coaching staff into consideration when you look at the success of a team. With all of that talent out on defense, they still won games, and not solely because of McNothing either, simply put, because of ANDY REID and his brilliant coaching staff. Unlike McNothing not being a Top tier QB in the league, Andy Reid and his staff are DEFINATELY among the best in the NFL. Now you spin that one around a little bit. So the point is that McNabb was (is) the most overrated QB in the league. Well can this be properly judged when he has NEVER had the receivers that the greats have enjoyed? Or for that matter, a blue chip RB? After all, if you listen to Art, the running back by committe method just doesn't cut it. So it begs the question. How do you judge a QB when he is surrounded by mediocre talent? I guess we will find out this season. And remember, you can probably find hundreds of threads here (archived on this site) claiming that the Eagles WR's are (were) the worst in the league and their RB situation is middle of the road at best. I'll bookmak this thread especially for you. I hope you do the same. This will get interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Well, if anything this year will tell us whther or not McNabb deserved the 'overrated' tag he's picked up. In the four years he's started, the Eagles total offense has ranked 17th, 18th, 10th and 17th. In the four years he's started, the Eagles pass offense has ranked 20th, 19th, 18th and 19th. If McNabb is truly a great player, I'd think he'd be able to get that pass offense into, oh, let's say the top HALF of the league with TO's help. No more excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 Well, it looks like many here are still in denial and shock from the gravity of this move. Once the emotions subside, maybe this can be reevaluated with a clear head. First of all, if you want to dismiss the premise of the post just because McNabb hasn't yet completed a pass to Owens, you may as well go back and delete 50% of the posts on this board projecting the success of Brunell, Portis, Gibbs, etc. I'd think one would be able to imagine what MAY become, even if the visions conjured are not necessarily pleasant to everyone here. Second, it was interesting to see the way McNabb was attacked as a QB. He made it to his latest of 3 NFC Champ games on a team without WRs, a team without a bona fide stud RB and, a defense that ranked 22nd in yards allowed. Who deserves the credit for that, including a 10-1 finish? The fans? All fingers point to McNabb. Talk all you want about his pedestrian passing yardage totals. McNabb had a horendous start to the year, but what mattered was that he was an animal in the second half of the year when it was on the line. And by animal, I mean he put up 2220 yards over his last 8 games. Not too shabby for a QB who, according to many here, is a mediocre passer. Again, it's silly to throw out the name of a QB like Bulger, who incidentally, threw a staggering 22 INTs, and so terribly shook the faith of his HC, that he was handcuffed in the final minutes of a shootout playoff game. It's silly because Bulger had Holt. And Bruce. And Faulk. And Martz's system. The limiting factors with which McNabb has played his career are so unique and so extreme, that's it's necessary to discard statistics - and avoid the temptation of placing them next to a QB like Bulger who couldn't ask for better circumstances. McNabb has tailored his game to succeed with the components that have surrounded him. Though he has shown ability to light it up as a passer (again see 2220 yds over final 8), it's only logical that overall, his stats reflect a system that minimizes use of the Eagles terrible receiving corps. In the end, it's tough to build a credible case against McNabb as a QB. Charges just don't stick too well when you've got 3 straight Conference Championship appearances. Statistically-based arguments fall on deaf ears when you're the only QB in the entire league to wind up in Hawaii the past 4 seasons. McNabb has done so much with so little. He's the guy at the driving range hitting 300+ bombs with an old school driver made of real wood. Well, Reid just handed him a titanium oversized driver with an illegal COR face and Proforce shaft. Now, we'll see what he's really got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HermsHerald Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Flowtrain I received an e-mail from an ecstatic friend of mine who's an Eagles fan and he proclaimed that Philly now has the second best QB/WR combo in the NFL. I thought about it for a moment. Then, I thought about it some more. Then I realized - he was right. Next to Manning/Harrison, McNabb/Owens is the second best pairing in the NFL. Now as for McNabb, despite his 4 consecutive Pro Bowls, there are few superstar NFL players who are more difficult to get a read on. First, he's got that somewhat inconsistent quality where he seems to struggle to execute short-range to intermediate plays to open WRs. That's an element of his game that would still seem likely to trouble him irrespective of Owens' presence. However, that weakness is far outweighed by the completeness of his game, including his dual threat ability, leadership, and seasoned playoff experience. But the more significant reason that McNabb is difficult to judge is the very legitimate footnote that his supporters have attached to his stats every season of his career. The Eagles have arguably had the most pathetic collection of WRs in the NFL over the past 4 year span, and as a result, McNabb has been almost as close to a one-man offense as the NFL has to offer. It's not an excuse. It's a legitimate observation. Rarely, if ever, has a QB garnered such sustained accolades with less talent at WR (honorable mention to Tom Brady). This will truly be the first season in which it's fair to judge McNabb side-by-side among his peers, and one would be hard-pressed to argue that the additional of Owens will do anything but signficantly improving his standing relative to other QBs. Then there's Owens who, quite symmetrically, has also been to 4 consecutive Pro Bowls. That 00, 01, 02 span in which he averaged close to 95-1400-14 is much more likely to be indicative of the WR the Eagles acquired, rather than the one we saw last year when his QB was hurt, played miserably, was benched and then cut. You can probably keep him out of the top 3 NFL WRs if you chose, but can't do so comfortably and without great hesitation. So there you have it. Which other duos are even in the running? Culpepper/Moss is a very nice pairing, but anyone whose seen much of Culpepper knows his propensity to unravel and make critical mistakes takes him out of the running. Without Moss, Culpepper is just better than average, if he isn't that already. The fact that he pioneered a 6-0 team that self-destructed before missing the playoffs is also an indictment of his intangibles. So, who else is there? McNair/Mason, Bulger/Holt? I don't think so. The pressure on the Eagles to go this distance this year will be enormous. But with the second best QB/WR combo in the league (to say nothing of Kearse & Co.), it's pressure well deserved. Excellent post. McNabb the "over-rated" has been deemed such because he achieved a reputation which goes far beyond his often pedestrian numbers. At the same, that reputation was built on his ability to take an offense on his shoulders, and win with literally nothing. The fact he didn't do so last season as often as he did it in seasons past does not negate the fact he is franchise player in the sense that when he's on, even a Pinkston and Thrash combo won't detrack him. As you clearly state, no one really knows what McNabb is. What we do know is he has never had a weapon like Owens, and one so avidly proclaiming his goal is to play with this one quarterback. One so psyched up to make impact with this QB. The question as to "who makes whom", QB or wideout, usually comes down on the side of the field general. It's the rare receiver who "makes" a QB. Rarer still a compete partnership, a symbiosis lile Manning/Harrison , or Young/Rice. But there is a type of receiver who can and does "make a QB". We saw something of that in NY with Keyshawn Johnson, playing with both Tesataverde and Lucas. TO, a much completer talent, having both go-to and possession skills, is a scary proposition, especially considering his oft stated WILL to play with and for McNabb. McNabb doesn't need "making". But this union is more to his advantage than to TO's. Integrating a receiver into a new system is a notoriously slow process, but I suspect by mid season, they will not only be on the same page, but in lock step. When they achieve that symbiosis, it will be a thing to see. You want to play this team EARLY this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahogs Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Having TO in an Eagles jersey is going to be like having our own personal saboteur on that team. Can't wait for him to start destroying the Eagles (and in turn the fans, and Philly media destroy him), should be fun to watch. :eaglesuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I'd wait until they make a completion together before giving them any title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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