OaktonSkins/BushFan Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040201/D80ENNR80.html Stampede Kills 244 at Hajj Pilgrimage Email this Story Feb 1, 5:21 PM (ET) By RAWYA RAGEH (AP) Muslim pilgrims perform a symbolic stoning of the devil as they throw pebbles at a pillar at... Full Image MINA, Saudi Arabia (AP) - At least 244 people were trampled to death and hundreds more hurt Sunday under the crush of worshippers in one of the deadliest disasters during the annual Muslim pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia. The stampede occurred during the stoning of the devil, an emotional and notoriously perilous hajj ritual. Pilgrims frantically throw rocks, shout insults or hurl their shoes at three stone pillars - acts that are supposed to demonstrate their deep disdain for Satan. Safety measures were in place at the site - one where fatal stampedes have been frequent - but "caution isn't stronger than fate," said Saudi Hajj Minister Iyad Madani. "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will." The stampede broke out on one of two ramps leading to the 50-foot stone pillars. Tens of thousands of people were on the uppermost ramp, which is about the width of a five-lane highway. (AP) Two veiled Arab Muslim women, are seen in city of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, Thursday, Jan. 29, 2004 two... Full Image Authorities said a few pilgrims fell, causing panic as pressure built up in the crowd behind. Brig. Mansour al-Turki of the Saudi General Security Forces said about 10,000 general security officers were on duty in the area at the time. Their intervention "resulted in containing the pushing toward the pillar to prevent more pilgrims from falling," an unidentified Saudi Interior Ministry official said, the state-run Saudi Press Agency reported. The same area was the scene of similar deadly incidents in 1998, 2001 and last year. Sunday's tragedy marked the worst disaster at the annual hajj since 1997, when 340 pilgrims died in a fire at their tent city in Mina, near the holy city of Mecca. Most of the dead Sunday were pilgrims from inside the Saudi kingdom who may not have been authorized to participate, Madani said. It was unclear how many foreign pilgrims died, but Egypt's Middle East News Agency reported that 13 Egyptians were among the dead. Madani also said 272 pilgrims had died of natural causes during the hajj. Many participants are elderly, and Muslims believe that if a person dies while performing the pilgrimage they will go directly to heaven. About 2 million Muslims are participating in this year's pilgrimage. To control the crowd, Saudi authorities set quotas for pilgrims from each country, and also require its citizens and residents to register upon arrival. Many resident foreigners, especially those from the Indian subcontinent, cannot afford to pay the cost of an authorized pilgrimage, around $530, and perform the pilgrimage independently, despite recent laws requiring citizens and residents to join registered pilgrimage campaigns. The chaos came after a sleepless night of prayer at the climax of the hajj, when pilgrims from around the world listened to Saudi Arabia's top cleric at the Namira Mosque. On Sunday morning, they prayed at dawn then gathered pebbles to throw at the pillars. Each participant throws seven times, chanting "bismillah" ("in the name of God") and "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great"). Calling America "the greatest Satan," Egyptian pilgrim Youssef Omar threw pebbles at one pillar on which someone had scrawled "USA." After the 1998 hajj, when about 180 pilgrims were trampled to death, religious authorities issued an edict extending the amount of time in which pilgrims could complete the ritual, hoping to spread out the crowd. A giant ramp leading to the pillars fills with pilgrims waiting to throw their pebbles, and Saudi authorities instruct pilgrims in several languages when and where to pass. Still, 14 pilgrims were trampled to death during the same ritual last year and 35 died in a 2001 stampede. The stoning ritual also marked the first day of Eid al-Adha, or the Feast of the Sacrifice, celebrated at the hajj and around the Muslim world with the slaughtering of a camel, cow or sheep. Meat is eaten and distributed to the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 When performing an act for God and dying like that you are believed to be blessed. The people who died are considered to be extremely blessed people while performing the Hajj. I really do take offense to the "these people are NOT right" thread title. Unless of course you think the devil is right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan Calling America "the greatest Satan," Egyptian pilgrim Youssef Omar threw pebbles at one pillar on which someone had scrawled "USA." That might be what he's talking about. Plus, come up with a way that people aren't stampeded every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 exactly who are you referring to with "these people"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost Who Talks Plus, come up with a way that people aren't stampeded every year. I thought that you were against laws/rules/regulations that protected people from themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Hmmm... "God is Great", and "You are Dead" ! Guess it's all part of the evolutionary cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Phat Hog Hmmm... "God is Great", and "You are Dead" ! Guess it's all part of the evolutionary cycle. Interesting "evolutionary" cycle that has Muslims gaining on Christians on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 From CNN.COM: Last year, 36 pilgrims were trampled to death, most of them en route to the devil stoning ritual. In 2001, a stampede at the same ritual killed 35. ... The most deadly Hajj-related incident was a 1990 stampede in which 1,426 pilgrims were killed. Here is a breakdown of other violent incidents at the annual Muslim pilgrimage: 1998 - 180 people died in a stampede near Mecca at the end of the Hajj; 1997 - A fire in Mina tore through the sprawling, overcrowded tent city , trapping and killing more than 340 pilgrims and injuring 1,500; 1994 - a stampede kills 270 pilgrims; ... 1989 - bombs exploded near the Grand Mosque in Mecca, killing one pilgrim and wounding 16 others; 1987 - some 400 people, mainly Iranian Shi'ite pilgrims, were killed in clashes with Saudi security forces during anti-Western protests in Mecca This cannot in any way be "right". This cannot, in any way, point at the "peaceful manner" of the attendees. And it happens nearly EVERY year! Yesterday I was sending/saying holiday greetings to my Muslim friends and acquaintances but as I was - there was this background worry that someone or their relatives might have been there, at the Hajj. Why should millions on worshipers be denied the fulfillment of one of the Pillars of Islam? Why should others go and by doing so gamble with theirs lives? Maybe because no one there cares about the lives continuously being lost? Maybe because Life is not the highest value in this mentality? When some of us use "it's a religion of peace" somewhat scoldingly it doesn't only refer to terrorism. It refers to this as well. It's about Life as a Value, or in this case - as having none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Ancal Trying to preach calm, orderly procession, or permitting only a certain amount in at a given moment, or asking people to follow a certain path or WHATEVER the issue is here is far different from governmental regulations and laws, and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Not arguing that, but from SHF's post, it seemed as though it was these people's choice to die (because they'd be "extremely blessed"). So reducing the deaths would, in a twisted way, be counterproductive. Now, whether people should be allowed to make that choice is another topic entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 The Elated OaktonSkinsFan - your choice of thread names is getting brutal. You posted this just so you can show the difference between the right people here and the not right people over there. It's foolish, ignorant and completely transparent every time you do it. If you do not understand, then it's wrong and worth making fun of. It's a get post, just poorly named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Agreed webnarc. I also take great offense to the comments that Muslims have no reverence for the sanctity of life. The real fault here lies with the inefficient administration of the crowds during the Hajj by the Saudi administrators. Nothing more, nothing less. I haven't heard anyone say Westerners have no respect for life because of all the deaths during soccer games, and more recently during Super Bowl celebrations. Sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. Oh, for the record the "USA" scrawled on one of the pillars was a political act that had no place in a deeply religious ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Interesting. The real fault here lies with the government which failed to control the crowds. None of the fault here though belongs to the idiots who are stampeding each other to death? Boy, I think fondly of a time when people had some small belief in self-control and self-responsibility and didn't simply want or need government to control everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 This link http://www.basedn.freeserve.co.uk/gatherings.htm gives a listing of those folks who evidently needed governmental control over trampling others. Seems pretty ubiquitous if you ask me...especially in the developing world where governmental controls are often weakest. Sorry Art, while I share your desire for a government which governs least, crowd control is one of those areas where I'm willing to give up a bit of liberty in the interest of safety:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I just don't see how you can blame the gov't for an act like this. It's entirely the fault of the people involved.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Yusuf06 I also take great offense to the comments that Muslims have no reverence for the sanctity of life. I, for one, did not mean that all Muslims hold Life at a value lesser than the highest and I apologize if I've offended you. But saying that this death, because it occurs during a religious ceremony is sacred - that's scary. And I'm sorry but those Muslims, sorry- PEOPLE, who think it noble to trample and be trampled to death while running and throwing rocks - that's tragic. If someone, let alone the religious Saudi regime, would have truly cared for the lives lost - they wouldn't have been lost. The analogy to SB or soccer games is poor. It doesn't happen yearly, and when such a tragedy such as Heisel Stadium does occur - it leaves a bleeding scar for us all as fans. What happens during Hajj each year - doesn't. It just keeps on happening again and again. And Yusuf and SHF - I do wish you Eid Mubarak, as it well should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Atleast they died on a pilgrimage not rioting after a sporting event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by SkinInsite Atleast they died on a pilgrimage not rioting after a sporting event. Oh, lovely cause indeed. Makes it all worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 No it doesn't, but i don't see people making "these people are not right" thread after each riot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexter's Better Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 The sermon that was given only denounced terrorist acts against muslims. Not against everyone. See, you can parse it and phrase it however you want, but deep down, the Whabbists are a more secular approach to Nazism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awgustlab Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 God's will...................phhhhht. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OaktonSkins/BushFan Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by webnarc The Elated OaktonSkinsFan - your choice of thread names is getting brutal. You posted this just so you can show the difference between the right people here and the not right people over there. It's foolish, ignorant and completely transparent every time you do it. If you do not understand, then it's wrong and worth making fun of. It's a get post, just poorly named. Wow. :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by The Elated OaktonSkinsFan Wow. :laugh: :laugh: Good, you got the political reference . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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