terpfan Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 21 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: I'd draft any of those players on day 3 if they were in the draft, so I'd swap a pick for them, too. Well sure, but drafted players also come with 4 year, team friendly contracts. So it’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison. 3 hours ago, MartinC said: Queen played well after the Ravens signed Roquan Smith to a huge deal to play next to him and simplified his role. We don’t have anyone at the level of a Roquan Smith for Queen to play next to. I’m sure there’s truth to this, although I still think it’s safe to say he would at worst be the 2nd best LB on our roster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 9 minutes ago, terpfan said: I’m sure there’s truth to this, although I still think it’s safe to say he would at worst be the 2nd best LB on our roster. No doubt he would be at worst our second best backer. He'd probably be the best - but the contract he'd likely want would be paying him at a level I doubt he would play here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 28 minutes ago, terpfan said: I’m sure there’s truth to this, although I still think it’s safe to say he would at worst be the 2nd best LB on our roster. well sure, but so would you 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 18 minutes ago, MartinC said: No doubt he would be at worst our second best backer. He'd probably be the best - but the contract he'd likely want would be paying him at a level I doubt he would play here. LBers, especially non pass rushing specialists, don't demand high contracts unless they're elite though. It's kind of strange how LBer (and TE) contracts go. If we trade for him and he does well, not super star well, but a little better than Holcomb, he's worth 5 or 6 mil a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 Could have used a pass rushing LBer. Really would have been a great fit for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said: LBers, especially non pass rushing specialists, don't demand high contracts unless they're elite though. It's kind of strange how LBer (and TE) contracts go. If we trade for him and he does well, not super star well, but a little better than Holcomb, he's worth 5 or 6 mil a year. The Ravens paid Smith a deal averaging $20M per year with $60M of guarantees. Queen is not getting anything close to that but he will be looking for more than $5-6M per. He might not get it of course! The Ravens started rushing Queen more and he actually did generate pressure and some sacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 40 minutes ago, MartinC said: The Ravens paid Smith a deal averaging $20M per year with $60M of guarantees. Queen is not getting anything close to that but he will be looking for more than $5-6M per. He might not get it of course! The Ravens started rushing Queen more and he actually did generate pressure and some sacks. Smith is the definition of elite LBer. They get paid. Floyd signed a one year deal today for $2.25 mil. He's a 9 sack a year guy. there are what? 85/95 starting linebackers in the NFL? Only 9 make more than $10mil. According to OTC the 20th highest paid linebacker is Cole Holcomb at $6 mil per year. $5/6 mil is the going rate for a good starting linebacker. If Queen or Simmons or whoever that has been a bust and finds their groove in our defense and looks like a good fit, a multi year mid season contract that averages 5/6 mil is good all around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: It's like when you're vegan and everyone knows it and you say "I ate a hot dog" and your friend says "OMG I thought you were vegan", so the next time you say "I ate a vegan hot dog" and the same friends say "why do you always have to say vegan, we know already" Ah thanks for explaining, that’s cleared it up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 7 minutes ago, Est.1974 said: Ah thanks for explaining, that’s cleared it up You called Wylie the real SB MVP. I figured I'd draw it in crayon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: You called Wylie the real SB MVP. I figured I'd draw it in crayon. https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2023/2/16/23598037/chiefs-eagles-super-bowl-lvii-andrew-wylie-haason-reddick Without the epic performance of right tackle Andrew Wylie, the Kansas City Chiefs would not have won Super Bowl 57. The Philadelphia Eagles entered the game with the number-one pass rush in the NFL and were being touted as one of the best defensive teams of all-time. He played pretty damn good to be fair. Depends on your take I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 5 minutes ago, Est.1974 said: https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2023/2/16/23598037/chiefs-eagles-super-bowl-lvii-andrew-wylie-haason-reddick Without the epic performance of right tackle Andrew Wylie, the Kansas City Chiefs would not have won Super Bowl 57. The Philadelphia Eagles entered the game with the number-one pass rush in the NFL and were being touted as one of the best defensive teams of all-time. He played pretty damn good to be fair. Depends on your take I guess. I'm surer the chiefs and their fans were happy with his play. I already explained why we shouldn't be. He'll face that same pass rush twice this season, so we'll see how he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: According to OTC the 20th highest paid linebacker is Cole Holcomb at $6 mil per year. $5/6 mil is the going rate for a good starting linebacker. If Queen or Simmons or whoever that has been a bust and finds their groove in our defense and looks like a good fit, a multi year mid season contract that averages 5/6 mil is good all around. I would not call Queen a bust. He is a bit like Davis here (but better), if you remove the draft status and the expectations that come with that and just look at his performance they have both become at least decent starters who seem to be ascending (Queen was better than just decent last season, but some of that was probably playing next to Smith). Simmons is probably closer to a bust, but he's been moved around so much in terms of role its hard to know if he's the reason for the lack of consistent performance or he's just been badly misused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 Just now, MartinC said: I would not call Queen a bust. He is a bit like Davis here (but better), if you remove the draft status and the expectations that come with that and just look at his performance they have both become at least decent starters who seem to be ascending (Queen was better than just decent last season, but some of that was probably playing next to Smith). Simmons is probably closer to a bust, but he's been moved around so much in terms of role its hard to know if he's the reason for the lack of consistent performance or he's just been badly misused. I agree with all of that. That's a $5/6 mil a year LBer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 hours ago, MartinC said: I would not call Queen a bust. He is a bit like Davis here (but better), if you remove the draft status and the expectations that come with that and just look at his performance they have both become at least decent starters who seem to be ascending (Queen was better than just decent last season, but some of that was probably playing next to Smith). Simmons is probably closer to a bust, but he's been moved around so much in terms of role its hard to know if he's the reason for the lack of consistent performance or he's just been badly misused. You just raised a question in my mind....if LB is such a declining, undervalued position in the NFL, and for the Redskins, then why did we draft Jamin Davis in the 1st round anyway? We have done little to nothing to add to the position since we drafted him to give him support....We've barely given him any vet LB's to learn around. This seems like organizational negligence in some ways. If you don't really value the position then why draft a LB in the 1st round? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 hour ago, kingdaddy said: You just raised a question in my mind....if LB is such a declining, undervalued position in the NFL, and for the Redskins, then why did we draft Jamin Davis in the 1st round anyway? We have done little to nothing to add to the position since we drafted him to give him support....We've barely given him any vet LB's to learn around. This seems like organizational negligence in some ways. If you don't really value the position then why draft a LB in the 1st round? Not sure why some posters think that LBer is under valued. Defense has changed and team are not putting 3 defining starters on the field every play, which personally makes me feel like it's more valuable. Finding an elite LBer these days is so much tougher to find. There are plenty of elite pass rushers, but the true MIKE types are rare. Roquan Smith Ravens 26 $100,000,000 $20,000,000 $60,000,000 $45,000,000 2028 UFA Shaquille Leonard Colts 28 $98,500,000 $19,700,000 $52,500,000 $33,000,000 2027 UFA Fred Warner 49ers 27 $95,225,000 $19,045,000 $40,500,000 $27,500,000 2027 Void Tremaine Edmunds Bears 25 $72,000,000 $18,000,000 $50,000,000 $41,800,000 2027 UFA C.J. Mosley Jets 31 $85,000,000 $17,000,000 $51,000,000 $43,000,000 2025 Void Foyesade Oluokun Jaguars 28 $45,000,000 $15,000,000 $28,000,000 $28,000,000 2025 Void Matt Milano Bills 29 $28,330,000 $14,165,000 $27,150,000 $17,150,000 2027 Void Jerome Baker Dolphins 27 $37,500,000 $12,500,000 $28,410,000 $20,000,000 2025 Void Bobby Okereke Giants 27 $40,000,000 $10,000,000 $21,800,000 $21,800,000 2027 UFA De'Vondre Campbell Packers 30 $50,000,000 $10,000,000 $15,000,000 $15,000,000 2027 Void Demario Davis Saints 34 $28,000,000 $9,333,333 $7,380,000 $7,380,000 2025 Void Dre Greenlaw 49ers 26 $16,400,000 $8,200,000 $10,008,301 $7,008,301 2025 Void Devin White Buccaneers 25 $29,315,814 $7,328,954 $29,315,814 $29,315,814 2024 UFA Kaden Elliss Falcons 28 $21,500,000 $7,166,667 $10,160,000 $10,160,000 2026 UFA Germaine Pratt Bengals 27 $20,250,000 $6,750,000 $7,000,000 $7,000,000 2026 UFA Eric Kendricks Chargers 31 $13,250,000 $6,625,000 $6,750,000 $6,750,000 2025 UFA T.J. Edwards Bears 27 $19,500,000 $6,500,000 $12,025,000 $7,900,000 2026 UFA Shaq Thompson Panthers 29 $12,600,000 $6,300,000 $8,500,000 $8,500,000 2025 Void Alex Anzalone Lions 29 $18,750,000 $6,250,000 $9,000,000 $9,000,000 2026 Void Cole Holcomb Steelers 27 $18,000,000 $6,000,000 $4,920,000 $4,920,000 2026 UFA Quincy Williams Jets 27 $18,000,000 $6,000,000 $9,000,000 $9,000,000 2026 Void Alex Singleton Broncos 30 $18,000,000 $6,000,000 $9,000,000 $9,000,000 2026 UFA Bobby Wagner Seahawks 33 $5,500,000 $5,500,000 $4,480,000 $4,480,000 2024 UFA Josey Jewell Broncos 29 $11,000,000 $5,500,000 $6,000,000 $6,000,000 2024 UFA Isaiah Simmons Cardinals 25 $20,664,054 $5,166,014 $20,664,054 $20,664,054 2024 UFA David Long Jr. Dolphins 27 $10,000,000 $5,000,000 $6,500,000 $5,500,000 2025 UFA Azeez Al-Shaair Titans 26 $5,000,000 $5,000,000 $4,250,000 $4,250,000 2024 Void Christian Kirksey Texans 31 $10,000,000 $5,000,000 $4,000,000 $4,000,000 2024 UFA Kyzir White Cardinals 27 $10,000,000 $5,000,000 $6,000,000 $6,000,000 2025 UFA Frankie Luvu Panthers 27 $9,000,000 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 2024 UFA Lavonte David Buccaneers 33 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 2024 Void Micah Parsons Cowboys 24 $17,079,792 $4,269,948 $17,079,792 $17,079,792 2025 UFA E.J. Speed Colts 28 $8,000,000 $4,000,000 $3,920,000 $3,920,000 2025 UFA Leighton Vander Esch Cowboys 27 $8,000,000 $4,000,000 $5,000,000 $5,000,000 2025 UFA Jack Campbell Lions 23 $14,722,018 $3,680,505 $14,722,018 $14,722,018 2027 UFA Zaven Collins Cardinals 24 $14,690,254 $3,672,564 $14,690,254 $14,690,254 2025 UFA Jordan Hicks Vikings 31 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $3,250,000 $3,250,000 2024 UFA Elandon Roberts Steelers 29 $7,000,000 $3,500,000 $2,335,000 $2,335,000 2025 UFA Devin Bush Seahawks 25 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $2,990,000 $2,990,000 2024 UFA Cody Barton Commanders 27 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 $3,500,000 2024 UFA Robert Spillane Raiders 28 $7,000,000 $3,500,000 $4,245,000 $3,045,000 2025 UFA Quay Walker Packers 23 $13,841,644 $3,460,411 $13,841,644 $13,841,644 2026 UFA Jamin Davis Commanders 25 $13,794,176 $3,448,544 $13,794,176 $13,794,176 2025 UFA We almost signed Milano for more than he returned to the Bills for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 22 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: Floyd signed a one year deal today for $2.25 mil. He's a 9 sack a year guy. That's it? His on/off splits with Aaron Donald must have been abysmal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said: That's it? His on/off splits with Aaron Donald must have been abysmal. Pretty aggravating that Ron listed pass rusher and linebacker as two of our holes to fill this offseason and a 30yo PRing LBer with 9 sacks the last two years goes that cheap on a one year deal. I guess it's better to miss on lay ups like that, than to dunk on guys like this after he has his last good year like we use to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Pretty aggravating that Ron listed pass rusher and linebacker as two of our holes to fill this offseason and a 30yo PRing LBer with 9 sacks the last two years goes that cheap on a one year deal. I guess it's better to miss on lay ups like that, than to dunk on guys like this after he has his last good year like we use to. We don't have Aaron Donald, but we do have good pass rushing DT's...I'm just surprised no other team in the league offered him more money. Something is weird. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said: We don't have Aaron Donald, but we do have good pass rushing DT's...I'm just surprised no other team in the league offered him more money. Something is weird. We have a much better DL and situation for a pass rusher than the Rams. They have one guy who gets covered every play and not much else. Wagner had his worst year playing on that team last year. Our DL has 4 legit pass rushers every down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: We have a much better DL and situation for a pass rusher than the Rams. They have one guy who gets covered every play and not much else. Wagner had his worst year playing on that team last year. Our DL has 4 legit pass rushers every down. You've got a slightly rosier perspective than I do on our pass rush. But with better cover guys this year maybe the pass rush will feel fiercer. From the draft video that team put out, I think there was an implication that Lukas Van Ness was one of the Plan B guys if Forbes was picked before us. When Van Ness went, I think they got more nervous. We know they like KJ Henry a lot, cause our DE situation is "OK" this season. Sweat is above average to good, somewhere there, then a lot of solid guys. Next off-season is going to be a pickle for us between all of our needs, although Leonard Floyd would not have helped then anyways as a rental. We really need Henry (or someone) to flash and think they deserve more time in 2024. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmsy Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 On 6/5/2023 at 10:34 AM, Koolblue13 said: I think Bates is going to surprise people in year 3 and be a bigger part of the offense. I really liked Bates when he came out, slow, but strong runner. I'm guessing our Oline has been so bad, that he was relegated to "blocker"...minus that one TD he caught against...Atlanta? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 4 hours ago, Simmsy said: I really liked Bates when he came out, slow, but strong runner. I'm guessing our Oline has been so bad, that he was relegated to "blocker"...minus that one TD he caught against...Atlanta? Monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 On 6/6/2023 at 6:46 AM, kingdaddy said: You just raised a question in my mind....if LB is such a declining, undervalued position in the NFL, and for the Redskins, then why did we draft Jamin Davis in the 1st round anyway? We have done little to nothing to add to the position since we drafted him to give him support....We've barely given him any vet LB's to learn around. This seems like organizational negligence in some ways. If you don't really value the position then why draft a LB in the 1st round? I think linebacker is an evolving position in the NFL. Teams are looking for smaller lighter backers who have the speed to run sideline to sideline and can carry a back or TE - or even slot receiver - in man/zone match down a seam. To be paid (or drafted highly) a backer needs to be a 3 down player and that means coverage ability is as important (or even more important) than ability to fill a hole and thump. Teams are looking for these kinds of backers - guys with speed and athleticism who can play and run in space not 'just' fight off a guard and fill in a phone box. Also factor in that teams are in nickel as base - over 60% of snaps there will only be 2 backers in the field and increasingly only 1 as a backer is replaced by a big safety (the Buffalo nickel). So teams just need less starting calibre backers - they are just not on the field as much. To Davis he ran a 4.4 and 4.37 40. He had the highest overall athleticism score for a linebacker at the NFL combine his year. He is elite from a physical perspective and fits the mold of what NFL teams are looking for from a backer physically. However he had only started 11 games at backer in College. We drafted him based on his elite traits but given his lack of experience it was always going to take time with him - he is still scratching the surface of his potential. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 27 minutes ago, MartinC said: Also factor in that teams are in nickel as base - over 60% of snaps there will only be 2 backers in the field and increasingly only 1 as a backer is replaced by a big safety (the Buffalo nickel). So teams just need less starting calibre backers - they are just not on the field as much. You gotta stop with this. Nobody is running 1 LBer and an extra DB as a base or a normal package or they'd just get run on all day. BN is a safety who plays a LBer role, yes, but does not replace a LBer When we ran it with Collins, he was the 3rd LBer. Every time. Also, nobody is looking for smaller LBers. Those are safeties. Teams need guys who are LBers that can cover and play like you described, which is rare and why they get paid. No defense replaces a LBer with a safety, when a LBer is needed. And playing a safety close to the line is not remotely new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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