2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[KDawg]

I spoke too soon. Fields threw one of the worst INTs I’ve ever seen just now

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’ve been eating some **** for my Fields love here, but he is starting to play much, much better and he has very little talent around him on offense. His future looks bright.

 

Same with Tu’a. Except that offense is ****ing loaded.
 

I at least feel somewhat vindicated on both but still a lot for them both to prove.

 

 

Me and volsmet too among others big cheerleaders for Tua.  It looked abysmal until this season.

 

I probably was the 2nd biggest cheerleader for Fields after you.  But not to the extent where there is one dude (not you) who was willing to trade the world for him.

 

I watched a bunch of the Bears game, I admit tough for me to land on it yet for Fields as an NFL passer but his wheels are special but got some hope for him for sure.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

On another note, listening to Cooley just now on a podcast.  And I'd say if anything he's on the cynical side of things about this team in recent years.

 

He thinks this roster is loaded, 11-12 win team if they can figure out QB, and presume boost the O line.  He's very impressed with the defense and likes the playmakers on offense

[Zim489]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

roster is loaded

I just dont know how anyone can say its loaded. Oline needs completely rebuilt. We have nothing at QB. Samuels has 1 more year left and a prime cut target if a new Coaching staff is in. TE has no number 1. LB is not good. Secondary needs at least 3 contributors/starters

 

Needs right now if a new staff comes in and is looking at the roster here are the needs within the next 3 years

 

QB: Nothing

RB: At least one of them wont be here

TE: Cole Turner? I dont expect it as a 5th rounder

LT: Leno will be 32

LG: Nothing

C : Chase cant stay healthy

RG?

RT? (Cosmi fills one of those)

WRX: Nothing

WRZ: Terry

WRY: Jahan

 

DE: Sweat (I can see him not being here)

DT: Allen

DT: Mathis (Dont see payne resigning)

DE: Chase

WLB: Jamin

MLB: Nothing

SLB: Nothing

CB: BSJ

CB: Nothing

Slot: Nothing

FS: Nothing

SS: Curl

 

I can see 14 new starters in 2025 when the new staff is in. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I just dont know how anyone can say its loaded. Oline needs completely rebuilt. We have nothing at QB. Samuels has 1 more year left and a prime cut target if a new Coaching staff is in. TE has no number 1. LB is not good. Secondary needs at least 3 contributors/starters

 

Needs right now if a new staff comes in and is looking at the roster here are the needs within the next 3 years

 

 

Cooley and a bunch of others me too disagree with you. I think you are too blinded with your hate for Rivera to bring any objectivity to the point. I’ve debated you before on this plenty and it’s a waste of time.

 

We both agree though about get a QB and it’s better to suck than be mediocre 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley and a bunch of others me too disagree with you. I think you are too blinded with your hate for Rivera to bring any objectivity to the point. I’ve debated you before on this plenty and it’s a waste of time.

 

We both agree though about get a QB and it’s better to suck than be mediocre 

This has nothing to do with Ron. This is the roster I am looking at. Theres so many pieces even if Ron was still Id see as needing to be resolved. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Zim489 said:

This has nothing to do with Ron. This is the roster I am looking at. Theres so many pieces even if Ron was still Id see as needing to be resolved. 

I’ve seen you detail why you don’t like the roster and it’s filtered to Ron this and Ron that as do most of your posts so hard for me to believe Ron had nothing to do with it. No one hates Ron on the board with the venom you do.  

 

You’ve argued with me about the defense where u do not think it’s good. Just some wild stuff to me. 
 

So I’ll agree with some of the stuff you say on other points but I am in agreement with @Renegade7among others who debated you from what a recall on your point about how this roster according to you needs to be torched and rebuilt. To me it’s beyond me not agreeing with you, I think your point is ridiculous.  But to each their own, let’s debate other topics where we don’t have a Grand Canyon size gulf between our points, it’s a waste of time 

[Zim489]

Sorry I think Ron has built a roster built to make the playoffs and make no damage beyond that. The team still lacks elite talent. I see multiple units that need rebuilt at minimum over the next two years. Oline and Secondary. Still ignoring QB here.

 

Sorry if you feel like theres a grand canyon sized gap between us. I just happen to be on the right side of it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Sorry I think Ron has built a roster built to make the playoffs and make no damage beyond that. The team still lacks elite talent. I see multiple units that need rebuilt at minimum over the next two years. Oline and Secondary. Still ignoring QB here.

 

Sorry if you feel like theres a grand canyon sized gap between us. I just happen to be on the right side of it. 

yep you can argue with Cooley about it among others, that he’s wrong and you know football better than him.

 

Looks like you are moving your position some though here.  are you off now that the defense isn’t good or do you still believe its good now? 

 

All you are arguing in your last post is that the roster has weaknesses yeah sure every roster does so it sounds like you ae now off your blow up the roster stance? 

[Zim489]

Cooley is one of the most short sighted people on local radio you can listen to. Im looking at multi year scale here. 

 

I think the defense is still up in the air. They had a good match up vs the Vikings with the vikings being among the leading PA built teams in the league. If they cant get the run game going their toast. I think this defense would still get torched if they elite passing offenses.

 

Who they have played this year passing pff grade in Wins:
Jags 24 Bears 32 Packers 10 Colts 28

 

This team is playing the little sisters of the corn. I think they have a pretty good run defense. Run defense is pretty worthless in todays NFL. Theres no correlation between the great teams and run defense over the last 10 years in the league. Hell if you look even more in the statistics defense as a whole is wildly overrated and in transition. Its not about stopping teams any more. Its about limiting big plays and forcing turnovers. Keep the offense against you more inefficient than your offense while giving your team more drives. 

 

Im in the blow up the roster because Ron has built a team not conductive to winning championships in 2022. 

[KDawg]

I mean… i don’t think our roster is loaded at all. But I think it’s better than Zim does… holy ****

[Zim489]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I mean… i don’t think our roster is loaded at all. But I think it’s better than Zim does… holy ****

I dont think its terrible. Just exceedingly mid and built in a way non conductive to year to year sustained SB contention. I think the new staff should do a total tear down and keep about 5-7 players from this team. 

 

I also dont think its in any position to be taking a step to elite status while also staying far away from QB tier 1 prospects in the draft. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Zim489

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Cooley is one of the most short sighted people on local radio you can listen to. Im looking at multi year scale here. 

 

I think the defense is still up in the air. They had a good match up vs the Vikings with the vikings being among the leading PA built teams in the league. If they cant get the run game going their toast. I think this defense would still get torched if they elite passing offenses.

 

Who they have played this year passing pff grade in Wins:
Jags 24 Bears 32 Packers 10 Colts 28

 

This team is playing the little sisters of the corn. I think they have a pretty good run defense. Run defense is pretty worthless in todays NFL. Theres no correlation between the great teams and run defense over the last 10 years in the league. Hell if you look even more in the statistics defense as a whole is wildly overrated and in transition. Its not about stopping teams any more. Its about limiting big plays and forcing turnovers. Keep the offense against you more inefficient than your offense while giving your team more drives. 

 

Im in the blow up the roster because Ron has built a team not conductive to winning championships in 2022. 

 

A.  You started this off season saying its a mediocre team

 

B.  Then the roster sucked.

 

C.  Now back to the roster is mediocre.

 

Your point seems to change to fit whatever your mood is about the team du jour.  You give no credit to Ron on anything at times, drafts bad, this bad that bad.  The defense isn't good.  And then you retrace back to its just OK.

 

So I don't know what version of you I am debating.

29 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Cooley is one of the most short sighted people on local radio you can listen to. Im looking at multi year scale here. 

 

 

Cooley is far from short sighted.  And he's more often negative about the team than a homer.  He's trashed his share of FA signings in real time.  Trashed the Haskins pick when it happened.    Was one of the only people I can recall who said that Josh Allen was the best QB in that draft, loved him.  He's been right about a ton.

 

He loves this defense.  He likes the playmakers.  Thinks they need a QB and O line help and the rest of the roster is plenty strong enough.  You aren't going to build any roster with no weaknesses.  This isn't Madden.  There will be some holes but you want your units to be fundamentally good. 

 

Sorry he doesn't think the roster needs to be blown up.  Neither do I.  It's cool that you feel 100% certain that you are right and he among others are wrong.  If you are that sure you got it all figured out why waste your time arguing it?

Edited November 13, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

8 hours ago, KDawg said:

Same with Tu’a. Except that offense is ****ing loaded.

 

Man that coach is something else.  Elite weapons + accurate QB + brilliant coaching = super high powered offense.  Tua is definitely not Pat Mahomes, but the way Miami is track-meeting teams and casually dropping 30 points reminds me of the early days of this KC dynasty.

 

I wish we had someone as smart and instinctive as Mike McDaniel on our offensive staff, calling our plays.  Seeing what a great offensive coach does for his team really drives home for me how bad our offensive design and playcalling are.

[Going Commando]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Me and volsmet too among others big cheerleaders for Tua.  It looked abysmal until this season.

 

I probably was the 2nd biggest cheerleader for Fields after you.  But not to the extent where there is one dude (not you) who was willing to trade the world for him.

 

I watched a bunch of the Bears game, I admit tough for me to land on it yet for Fields as an NFL passer but his wheels are special but got some hope for him for sure.

 

I wasn't a big fan of Fields, but I liked him a lot more than Mac Jones.  He's in a pretty bad situation so it's tough to see how he's going to develop into a high quality passer.  I hate seeing QB prospects wasted by bad organizational management though and hope he pans out, if for no other reason than it'd be one less team competing with us for QB prospects.

 

I was a Tua fan though, and still am.  His arm isn't the most dynamic, but I think he throws with elite accuracy and he's going to be able to hang his hat on that.  He's got a Drew Brees quality to his game as a kind of air traffic controller for a bunch of dominant weapons.  But the thing he absolutely has to get under control in order to make the jump to being a legit great QB is his decision-making under pressure.  He is an absolute spazz under pressure and I think he's leading the league in dropped interceptions, and these are horrible throws that make Taylor Heinicke's decision-making process look like Alex Smith's.  Tua's going to have a month where he throws like 6 or 7 picks and derail their season if he doesn't get better.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I wasn't a big fan of Fields, but I liked him a lot more than Mac Jones.  He's in a pretty bad situation so it's tough to see how he's going to develop into a high quality passer.  I hate seeing QB prospects wasted by bad organizational management though and hope he pans out, if for no other reason than it'd be one less team competing with us for QB prospects.

 

I was a Tua fan though, and still am.  His arm isn't the most dynamic, but I think he throws with elite accuracy and he's going to be able to hang his hat on that.  He's got a Drew Brees quality to his game as a kind of air traffic controller for a bunch of dominant weapons.  But the thing he absolutely has to get under control in order to make the jump to being a legit great QB is his decision-making under pressure.  He is an absolute spazz under pressure and I think he's leading the league in dropped interceptions, and these are horrible throws that make Taylor Heinicke's decision-making process look like Alex Smith's.  Tua's going to have a month where he throws like 6 or 7 picks and derail their season if he doesn't get better.

 

I've watched my share of Dolphin games, Tua has really nice touch on his throws.  He does tend to underthrow sometimes the deep ball.   But the Dolphins have TWO dynamic WRs both as deep threats and taking underneath throws to the house -- making that happen was an ingenious off season move.  Waddle alone was a handful but tough to double two dudes like that, you can't really shade safeties on both guys.

 

I think Tua's surgery influenced his early NFL career, he never had a gun but his arm seemed weaker then than it is now.  I previously saw Tua played live multiple times when he played in college, and he wasn't the same initially in the pros.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

13 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

This team is playing the little sisters of the corn.

 

 

 

We have no real good wins, but four of the five losses were to decent teams

1.  Eagles 8-0

2.  Vikings 8-1 (competitive game, could have won)

3.  Cowboys 6-3

4.  Titans 6-3 (competitive game, could have won)

 

[method man]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've watched my share of Dolphin games, Tua has really nice touch on his throws.  He does tend to underthrow sometimes the deep ball.   But the Dolphins have TWO dynamic WRs both as deep threats and taking underneath throws to the house -- making that happen was an ingenious off season move.  Waddle alone was a handful but tough to double two dudes like that, you can't really shade safeties on both guys.

 

I think Tua's surgery influenced his early NFL career, he never had a gun but his arm seemed weaker then than it is now.  I previously saw Tua played live multiple times when he played in college, and he wasn't the same initially in the pros.

 

Fitz simplified the equation for me for QBs. To take a QB in rd 1, you have to ask what that prospect’s elite trait is. He suggested Tua’s may be accuracy if he had one and it is showing this year.
 

As a sidenote, I’d be nervous about paying Tua a big money extension given his injury woes

Edited November 14, 2022 by method man

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, method man said:

Fitz simplified the equation for me for QBs. To take a QB in rd 1, you have to ask what that prospect’s elite trait is. He suggested Tua’s may be accuracy if he had one and it is showing this year.
 

As a sidenote, I’d be nervous about paying Tua a big money extension given his injury woes

 

Yeah Tua's injuries worry me too -- some prominent doctor actually said he should retire. 

3 minutes ago, method man said:

Fitz simplified the equation for me for QBs. To take a QB in rd 1, you have to ask what that prospect’s elite trait is. He suggested Tua’s may be accuracy if he had one and it is showing this year.
 

As a sidenote, I’d be nervous about paying Tua a big money extension given his injury woes

 

Also as to Tua high intangibles.  Work ethic and desire to be great -- not every player as that Rocky level desire.   Some do.  Some don't.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

22 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

He looked horrible yesterday.  Like he doesn't enjoy football and is scared of contact.  I can see that he's got the size and speed to play the NFL game, but I wouldn't draft him.  The problems I saw yesterday are things which I don't think are fixable.  Namely, a lack of toughness and competitiveness.  I didn't really see any good reps from him yesterday as even on many of the ones he won, he let go of his blocks and quit before the play was over.  Spent like half of his run blocks just sticking his arms out and blocking grass.  These are personality and playing style issues, not skill deficiencies.  You can't make a guy into a tough competitor or make him love football.  I can't remember a single soft player with high end tools who ever beat the odds and did anything in the NFL.  I honestly wouldn't even want to have to commit a roster spot to a player like that.

 

I sometimes listen to the Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah podcast "Move the Sticks".  They both work for the NFL network now, but spent 10+ years as scouts before moving to the NFL network.   Bucky Brooks also had a five year NFL career as a punt and kick returner (he was a corner too, but rarely played at corner).  What they said is year in and year out teams would tell them to focus on corners and tackles because those positions had a bigger drop off in talent.  They also said they are amazed every preseason when they see some of the offensive tackles in training camps because they will see guys they scouted four or five years ago who were not that good and wonder how they are still in a NFL training camp five years later (even if they are not making teams) and then realize it goes to the lack of depth at that position.

 

I think Jaelyn Duncan will be that guy.   He will make a couple practice squads then  not make practice squads but still end up in training camps simply because he has the physical tools even if he is not that good.

Edited November 14, 2022 by philibusters

[method man]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah Tua's injuries worry me too -- some prominent doctor actually said he should retire. 

 

Also as to Tua high intangibles.  Work ethic and desire to be great -- not every player as that Rocky level desire.   Some do.  Some don't.

Ehh. I think high intangibles are table stakes for any QB to be successful

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

We have some talent on the roster but loaded? No way. The OL needs a complete overhaul. We don't have a legitimate starting TE. We need a #2 CB(or #1 and make St. Juste our #2).

 

And after this offseason we might lose Holcomb and Payne, opening up two more holes.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We have some talent on the roster but loaded? No way. The OL needs a complete overhaul. We don't have a legitimate starting TE. We need a #2 CB(or #1 and make St. Juste our #2).

 

And after this offseason we might lose Holcomb and Payne, opening up two more holes.

 

Depends on how you define loaded.  The way some people do -- hardly any team is loaded because EVERY team has weaknesses.  

 

The defense is legit.  And I don't see why we have to lose Payne especially if Wentz isn't back.  Holcomb IMO won't get big money in FA.

 

Good play makers.  Good defense.

 

Need to upgrade O line.  Need to upgrade QB.   A corner.  None of the other spots IMO are code red.

 

Cooley who if anything is a cynic typically I don't think is a mile off about upgrading at QB and O line and this is really good team.

 

We were neck and neck with Minny who is 8-1.  We just beat the Eagles.  And that is with a porous O line.  you turn that weakness into a strength and I think we can compete with almost any team 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise