2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[method man]

If this team moves on from Wentz after a season then oh boy at all the draft capital they will have given up for him. If they are in a position to draft one of the top 3, then likely Wentz is a big reason why so they should focus on a QB then

[Zim489]

9 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

I want this front office completely cleaned out and rebuilt before we bring in another QB prospect.  They're building for the next guys and I absolutely do not want another lame duck regime drafting a prospect for the next one to abandon immediately.

 

We need to rebuild the right way and that means GM and HC and QB are all brought in at the same time and all married together.

So that means I don't want a QB if Rivera and the Martys aren't fired this offseason.  I absolutely do not want to see them ruin Bryce Young or Will Levis.

I agree with all of this. If Ron and co are here next year after a 6-8 win season this year I want no part of them taking a QB. It was the mistake we did with Ron and Jay before him saddling them with the previous staffs QB. It’s a recipe for failure. Heaven forbid if they make a big gamble to trade up giving up assets for a future that doesn’t exist for them. It would make the job totally unfillable. We would be looking at 2027-28 before we’re on the right path again. 

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

I want this front office completely cleaned out and rebuilt before we bring in another QB prospect.  They're building for the next guys and I absolutely do not want another lame duck regime drafting a prospect for the next one to abandon immediately.

 

We need to rebuild the right way and that means GM and HC and QB are all brought in at the same time and all married together.

So that means I don't want a QB if Rivera and the Martys aren't fired this offseason.  I absolutely do not want to see them ruin Bryce Young or Will Levis.

 

IMO this team for 20 plus years has drafted the wrong QBs versus this franchise ruining them.  Overdrafting 2nd-3rd round talent in the first round and then being shocked they don't play like first rounders.  Kirk played well with this franchise but he's not elite.  RG3 was elite for one year but IMO the injury changed everything.

 

But lol, we've debated this already so moot conversation and I know you disagree.  I only bring this up because I am a talent-work ethic is the overridding plot line when it comes to QB.   

 

So indulging my mindset on those players.  What do you think of Young and Levis?  I've watched plenty of Young but I haven't really spent time anaylizing him.  I just started watching Levis. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I agree with all of this. If Ron and co are here next year after a 6-8 win season this year I want no part of them taking a QB. It was the mistake we did with Ron and Jay before him saddling them with the previous staffs QB. It’s a recipe for failure. Heaven forbid if they make a big gamble to trade up giving up assets for a future that doesn’t exist for them. It would make the job totally unfillable. We would be looking at 2027-28 before we’re on the right path again. 

That was all Dan. Bruce and Jay did not want Haskins. Dan may have forced him on Ron too

[Skinsinparadise]

I've watched some Hooker.  A faster Jalen Hurts?

 

 

 

[Zim489]

10 minutes ago, method man said:

That was all Dan. Bruce and Jay did not want Haskins. Dan may have forced him on Ron too

Im sure Ron had haskins forced on him but I think its utterly naive to think Dan's hand picked QB is going to work out and then do zero planning like it is was going to work out. I can understand forcing RG3 to start because of only being a year removed from the best QB rookie season ever. 

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

An elite to a very good QB IMO is the only thing IMO that can offset Dan.  I know some disagree with me and say nothing can offset Dan.  I don't know.  It has to play out.   But my gut is an elite QB trumps all.  It's not like the Bengals was some killer franchise when they landed Burrow or the Chargers with Herbert.   Yet the QBs changed everything.

Yeah, but you have to more than just that QB.  You have to have a FO that can draft really well consistently and has a true plan to build around said QB.  You have to have a great, innovative coaching staff, too.  Sure, having that stud QB can attach HC talent in most places.  This isn't "most places".  And with all that has come to light in the last few years with Dan on top of all the hideousness that already existed in relation to him as a person and owner, I don't believe anyone of merit would agree to come here even with a stud QB.  I just don't believe that at all.  Unless they were given an obscene amount of unwarranted power like Ron.  

 

There are lots of legendary QBs that never won a SB (like Marino) or won 1 and never went back (A. Rogers) because they played for organizations that couldn't put the rest of the necessary pieces together.  There's absolutely zero evidence, IMHO, that Snyder is capable of getting the FO and coaching staff necessary to fill out the puzzle.  And I don't believe our current regime is remotely good enough to accomplish that.  

 

It's all too easy to see this franchise finally break the QB curse, land a stud, then fail to build-out around him.  Then, that stud QB languishes year after year until finally saying "enough" and going elsewhere.  That's exactly where I see the situation settling if we ever got that stud QB.  And THAT's why tons of people say that it can never happen under Dan.   Doesn't make it rock-solid proof or anything, but I can totally understand (and do subscribe) that line of thinking. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Redwards

[Zim489]

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've watched some Hooker.  A faster Jalen Hurts?

 

 

 

Hes old as ****. He'll be 25 by the time hes drafted. Im passing on that kind of QB. Hes playing against some 17-18 year olds right now. 

[Zim489]

13 minutes ago, Redwards said:

Yeah, but you have to more than just that QB.  You have to have a FO that can draft really well consistently and has a true plan to build around said QB.  You have to have a great, innovative coaching staff, too.  Sure, having that stud QB can attach HC talent in most places.  This isn't "most places".  And with all that has come to light in the last few years with Dan on top of all the hideousness that already existed in relation to him as a person and owner, I don't believe anyone of merit would agree to come here even with a stud QB.  I just don't believe that at all.  Unless they were given an obscene amount of unwarranted power like Ron.  

 

There are lots of legendary QBs that never won a SB (like Marino) or won 1 and never went back (A. Rogers) because they played for organizations that couldn't put the rest of the necessary pieces together.  There's absolutely zero evidence, IMHO, that Snyder is capable of getting the FO and coaching staff necessary to fill out the puzzle.  And I don't believe our current regime is remotely good enough to accomplish that.  

 

It's all too easy to see this franchise finally break the QB curse, land a stud, then fail to build-out around him.  Then, that stud QB languishes year after year until finally saying "enough" and going elsewhere.  That's exactly where I see the situation settling if we ever got that stud QB.  And THAT's why tons of people say that it can never happen under Dan.   Doesn't make it rock-solid proof or anything, but I can totally understand (and do subscribe) that line of thinking. 

Everybody realizes that you have to build around a QB. Otherwise youre just setting him up to fail. 

 

QB is just step one and we continually bypass step one. Took Mike until year 3 to do so. Took Jay until his final year (not his fault) At worst a new staff needs to have his guy in year 2. That way that staff has 3 years to show major steps with the rookie. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Redwards said:

Yeah, but you have to more than just that QB.  

 

Sure, we all know.  But this team has not been part of the QB party for most of the last 30 years or so.  A really good QB can often mask an average roster.  

 

2 hours ago, Redwards said:

You have to have a FO that can draft really well consistently and has a true plan to build around said QB.  

 

I think the weapons here are good.  Need to juice up the O line though.

 

2 hours ago, Redwards said:

 Dan on top of all the hideousness that already existed in relation to him as a person and owner, I don't believe anyone of merit would agree to come here even with a stud QB.  I just don't believe that at all.  Unless they were given an obscene amount of unwarranted power like Ron.  

 

Agree.  But I am not in the Ron is a train wreck camp in spite of the emotions of last weekend.  With Cam, they adopted the RO before it became cool in the NFL, went to a SB and 4 playoff appearances.  I think you give this staff a franchise Qb, they'd win.  

 

2 hours ago, Redwards said:

 

It's all too easy to see this franchise finally break the QB curse, land a stud, then fail to build-out around him.  Then, that stud QB languishes year after year until finally saying "enough" and going elsewhere.  That's exactly where I see the situation settling if we ever got that stud QB.  And THAT's why tons of people say that it can never happen under Dan.   Doesn't make it rock-solid proof or anything, but I can totally understand (and do subscribe) that line of thinking. 

 

This franchise through their ups and down have built good O lines and supporting casts at different times.  I am not worried that they'd fail at the supporting cast -- they seem to be at least ok at getting the supporting cast at times for the Jaes Bond movies, but they never actually have James Bond.  

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Hes old as ****. He'll be 25 by the time hes drafted. Im passing on that kind of QB. Hes playing against some 17-18 year olds right now. 

 

25 doesn't bother me.  I am a sucker for QBs with uber mobility and known for leadership.  Having said that I don't have strong opinions about ANY of these Qbs yet, I've just started digesting. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

25 doesn't bother me.  I am a sucker for QBs with uber mobility and known for leadership.  Having said that I don't have strong opinions about ANY of these Qbs yet, I've just started digesting. 

One of those situations where you expect him to dominate the opponent. Im off on him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

One of those situations where you expect him to dominate the opponent. Im off on him. 

 

OK I recall you would give the sun-moon-and stars to get Justin Fields 2 years ago -- no price is too big in a trade to land him.

 

Who is that guy for you now?

 

I need to watch 4-6 games of a QB to get a feel for him in my mind.  I am not there with any of these Qbs yet, I got to watch much more. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK I recall you would give the sun-moon-and stars to get Justin Fields 2 years ago -- no price is too big in a trade to land him.

 

Who is that guy for you now?

 

I need to watch 4-6 games of a QB to get a feel for him in my mind.  I am not there with any of these Qbs yet, I got to watch much more. 

Im not dying for any of the guys. Im not big into Levis. I like Young>Stroud>Richardson (if he shows more growth) but im not trading up for any of them. If its Ron picking the players I dont want any of them. Leave it until 2024 when Ron implodes. 

[philibusters]

Speaking of Justin Fields, do people think the first three games are indicative that he doesn't have what it takes to be a good QB, or do people attribute that to his terrible supporting cast.  The crazy things is the Bears are 2-1 despite Fields throwing for less than 100 yards per game (in fairness he is at 99 yards per game) and running for another 32 per game.   One of the games was the rainfest against the 49'ers, but he had 4 interceptions and 2 fumbles and has taken 8 sacks, despite only have around 50 drop backs.

[Zim489]

5 minutes ago, philibusters said:

Speaking of Justin Fields, do people think the first three games are indicative that he doesn't have what it takes to be a good QB, or do people attribute that to his terrible supporting cast.  The crazy things is the Bears are 2-1 despite Fields throwing for less than 100 yards per game (in fairness he is at 99 yards per game) and running for another 32 per game.   One of the games was the rainfest against the 49'ers, but he had 4 interceptions and 2 fumbles and has taken 8 sacks, despite only have around 50 drop backs.

I dont think hes going to work out but I dont think I can consider him a bust. Went to about as bad of situation as possible for a rookie QB

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, Zim489 said:

I dont think hes going to work out but I dont think I can consider him a bust. Went to about as bad of situation as possible for a rookie QB

 

I liked Fieids in that draft but not to the extent of trade the moon for him.  You in other posts have said that Rivera's worst mistake is not paying whatever haul a team wanted for Fields no matter how big -- according to Keim it was very big what teams wanted that year to trade into the first round -- minimum of two first rounders, hinted another high pick, maybe another first and a marquee player.

 

The way this is shaping up it would have handcuffed the team for years in the draft.  We wouldn't be in position to fix that mistake (if Fields keeps on this track) for years.  I am not saying this to give you a hard time but making the point its too risky to trade away your top pick for years going forward unless you are sure that the QB is can't miss. 

 

I don't mind trading up but I am VERY wary of giving up RG3 trade type hauls to do it. 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

The season collapsing albiet I suspect it won't, wouldn't be the end of the world, its the rigjht season to do it.  Yeah you can get a top QB if he's not one of the considered top two guys in a good QB NFL draft but stats wise your odds aren't hot when you fish in that next tier.  Ramsey was next tier.  Campbelll next tier.  Haskins (RIP) next tier.

 

The only time during Dan's tenure we shopped in the first tier is RG3, and RG3 indeed worked for a spell.

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

I watched the Michigan v. Maryland game last weekend.  On the Michigan side, Mazi Smith, the DT and RB Blake Corum stood out.  I was watching the game, not scouting it though.

[Zim489]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The season collapsing albiet I suspect it won't, wouldn't be the end of the world, its the rigjht season to do it.  Yeah you can get a top QB if he's not one of the considered top two guys in a good QB NFL draft but stats wise your odds aren't hot when you fish in that next tier.  Ramsey was next tier.  Campbelll next tier.  Haskins (RIP) next tier.

 

The only time during Dan's tenure we shopped in the first tier is RG3, and RG3 indeed worked for a spell.

 

 

 

Think next year would be better collapse over this year but semantics. Id be happy with a Stroud. Prefer Young. Dude has the it factor even though from a physicals I prefer Stroud.

 

But you are right we rarely have picked the top of the crop QBs. Its always been the second or 3rd tier guys

[Skinsinparadise]

Been watching some of this. Kentucky O line is terrible.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I get the point, from when I watch him Levis won't give up on a play and sometimes he should.  He has a strong arm like Wentz but more mobile.

 

 

 

[tomwvr]

On 9/28/2022 at 1:14 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, we all know.  But this team has not been part of the QB party for most of the last 30 years or so.  A really good QB can often mask an average roster.  

 

 

I think the weapons here are good.  Need to juice up the O line though.

 

 

Agree.  But I am not in the Ron is a train wreck camp in spite of the emotions of last weekend.  With Cam, they adopted the RO before it became cool in the NFL, went to a SB and 4 playoff appearances.  I think you give this staff a franchise Qb, they'd win.  

 

 

This franchise through their ups and down have built good O lines and supporting casts at different times.  I am not worried that they'd fail at the supporting cast -- they seem to be at least ok at getting the supporting cast at times for the Jaes Bond movies, but they never actually have James Bond.  

 

25 doesn't bother me.  I am a sucker for QBs with uber mobility and known for leadership.  Having said that I don't have strong opinions about ANY of these Qbs yet, I've just started digesting. 

 

 

 

 

The problem with a 25 year old playing in college is he wont face 18-20 year olds in the nfl and his advantage will disappear .

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

The problem with a 25 year old playing in college is he wont face 18-20 year olds in the nfl and his advantage will disappear .

 

 

I hear you but I can watch a player and factor context at the same time.  He's 24 not 25.  He won't be 25 until after his rookie NFL season, and it doesn't negate what he's doing.

 

Sometimes late blooming players, bloom late and it matters ala Terry McLaurin.  Kirk Cousins was 24 when he entered the NFL.

 

It's not like Hooker sucked at 23.   He had a big season then, too.  The question was could he follow up on that season and he did.

 

I am not saying I am sold on Hooker I have to watch all these guys much heavier than I have so far to land on a take.  But him being 24 doesn't bother me. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]