Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

France and Germany said that the recognition of the two independent republics wouldn’t go unpunished… just depends on what the punishment is. The UN is supposed to meet tonight at 9pm est

 

Yea know, I know most folks don't have the appetite for going to war with a nuclear power, and that's fair.

 

But when I read that, I hear "deterent". We passed the point of being able to deter Russia from doing this and need to talk about how to stop them.

 

They won't say outloud they don't plan to stop them because the invasion would officially start 5 minutes later. But this piece meal death by a 1000 cuts approach while waiting on deciding when to jus flip the whole table and get it over with has to be tough to stomach if you live in Ukraine, and that's exactly what their president is saying.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Renegade7

[PokerPacker]

5 minutes ago, Destino said:

We can’t go to war with Russia now for the same reasons we couldn’t during the Cold War.  We’d all die.

Meh, my generation doesn't have a future, anyways.  May as well yeet it and take Russia down with us.  And China while we're at it.

[Renegade7]

17 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:

The UN.  

 

They were neutered by Colin Powell twenty years ago.

 

 

 

They were neutered on inception by giving members of the security council veto powers, at minimum. 

 

19 minutes ago, Destino said:

We can’t go to war with Russia now for the same reasons we couldn’t during the Cold War.  We’d all die.

 

We need to work out a deal with Russia on when nukes can't be used versus being fair game, or China and North Korea will seize on it.

 

Can't think of a reason right now any of the three would be in a war with us that doesn't involve expanding its borders (ie, absorbing former soviet states, invading Taiwan, invading South Korea, etc), so the deal could be that moving a country back to its original borders CANNOT involve nukes; but if we try to invade into Russia, China, North Korea, or even the United States itself, nukes should be fair game.

 

Basically you can fight a nuclear power, but shouldn't expect them not to use nukes if you cross into their territory with the intent of overthrowing and replacing its government.

 

This is kinda the unofficially rule we have in place if Russia lost its mind and invaded Alaska, so make it official. We already have the Geneva Convention, war crimes are a thing now, so it's not like we can't make additional rules in how to fight war, we already have some.

 

Worth a shot, better then trying nothing, imo.

 

Edit: apologies to Tiawan for finding the loophole that will officially screw them for them

Edited February 22, 2022 by Renegade7

[Forehead]

29 minutes ago, Destino said:

We can’t go to war with Russia now for the same reasons we couldn’t during the Cold War.  We’d all die.

 

I mean, I think that's only the case if you try to actually invade them.  I wasn't speaking of and have no interest in actually trying to take territory from Russia.  I was simply speaking of using out significantly superior (I presume) air power to bomb the **** out of their tank and artillery positions.  Enough to send a message and cost them a whole lot of money and resources to replace them.  That was all.

 

As I said, I'm sure it would cause an economic crisis but I really wanna!

[TradeTheBeal!]

Nobody is gonna get nuked over LowCash.  Settle down yall.

[Destino]

33 minutes ago, Forehead said:

 

I mean, I think that's only the case if you try to actually invade them.  I wasn't speaking of and have no interest in actually trying to take territory from Russia.  I was simply speaking of using out significantly superior (I presume) air power to bomb the **** out of their tank and artillery positions.  Enough to send a message and cost them a whole lot of money and resources to replace them.  That was all.

 

As I said, I'm sure it would cause an economic crisis but I really wanna!

a direct conflict is too risky, it could easily escalate.  We’ll sell/give Ukraine plenty of supplies, give them intelligence, and push more sanctions against Russia.  The West isn’t starting world war three over Ukraine.  I would not be surprised if Ukraine no longer exists as a nation within a short time frame.  
 

if there is a line drawn by NATO, it’s not Ukraine.  Russia knows this. 
 

China is going to do this same thing with Taiwan soon.  The West will not intervene directly there either. 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I wonder how Zelenskey feels being told that…

Well, he wants to live? He is Target #1.

 

This will be over quickly once Putin moves. After initial opposition from Ukrainians; they will quickly accept their fate. Those vehemently opposing Putin will be rounded up and executed.

 

Europe will not impose heavy sanctions.

2 hours ago, China said:

 

Here he is getting ready to lead the charge of his army into Ukraine...

 

Well; you will never see Trump riding a bear. Even Biden either.

[mojo]

Don’t worry.  If Biden can handle Corn Pop w/ a bicycle chain, Putin on a bear shouldn’t be a problem.

[Captain Wiggles]

[PeterMP]

If I'm Taiwan, I'm restarting a nuclear program.  They had everything worked out in the 1980s, and they aren't a signee of the non-proliferation treaty.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

If I'm Taiwan, I'm restarting a nuclear program.  They had everything worked out in the 1980s, and they aren't a signee of the non-proliferation treaty.

 

 

read this gem…

 

https://www.rt.com/russia/550138-ukraine-nuclear-weapons-capability/

 

Ukraine more capable of obtaining nuclear weapons than Iran – Moscow

Kiev has better technology and specialists to develop nukes, Russia’s defense minister has said

 

FILE PHOTO.  © Global Look Press / Oskar Eyb

Ukraine is capable of developing tactical nukes, as well as the means of their delivery, Russia’s Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said during a special meeting of the country’s Security Council on Monday. He noted that Kiev’s capabilities exceed those of Tehran and Pyongyang.

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Simmsy said:

Well, if we go to war, lets do it right. We go in (with the UN) and we dethrone Putin. I know we don't like to mess with the stability of a country, but Putin needs to go.

And how u do that? Any war with Russia means WW3; nuclear war with Russia and probably China aiding Russia.

 

You want to die for Ukraine? You willing to live in a post nuclear U.S.; if you survive. Much of the U. S. will be destroyed.

[mcsluggo]

58 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:

The UN.  

 

They were neutered by Colin Powell twenty years ago.

 

 

 

You mean Cheney..?    using john Bolton ?

58 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:

The UN.  

 

They were neutered by Colin Powell twenty years ago.

 

 

 

You mean Cheney..?    using john Bolton ?

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Simmsy said:

Well, if we go to war, lets do it right. We go in (with the UN) and we dethrone Putin. I know we don't like to mess with the stability of a country, but Putin needs to go.

 

Russia is a permanent member of a security council.  They can veto any UN actions.  You won't ever go to war with Russia, China, or even one of their allies (e.g Syria) as part of the UN.  The fact that the Korean war happened as a UN action was a strategic mistake by the Soviet who at the time was boycotting the UN and not taking its seat at the UN security council.  PRC at the time wasn't seated.

 

They didn't take the UN seriously and never thought they could be used to fight a war.  That won't happen again.

[Captain Wiggles]

8 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

You mean Cheney..?    using john Bolton ?

 

 

 

Dude lied his ass off and the UN was like.

[Renegade7]

People saying they didn't know what WW3 would be fought with, but WW4 would be fought with sticks and stones are wrong.

 

WW3 is going to be very different from WW2, because it will be the first one with multiple countries already having nukes before it starts.

 

And the ramifications are clear:  WW3 has already started and it's already over.  Major differences compared to WW2 are the scale being smaller (even if it's multiple continents, it will involve less troops because of unwillingness to for the Allies to directly confront countries that already have nukes).  And because of that, the Allies are going to lose.

 

Once Russia and China are finished taking what they can get without crossing lines that result in a nuclear response from the Allies, then it will be over.  It may be smaller scale and not happen all at once, but make no mistake, the world will be noticeable different after its over and impact will dominant the remainder of century at minimum the way World War 2 did the 20th century.

 

South China Sea and Taiwan are good as gone, as is any other former soviet state that isn't yet a NATO member.  If that's what's going to happen and we fully intend to let it happen, let's jus skip all the BS and get it over with.  Hate to say it like that, but my disappointment in this waste of resources to be able to fight Russia and China at the same time and if we had to and that's why we don't have things like universal healthcare completely blows my fn mind.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Too bad China isn’t interested in acquiring some land a little north of Seoul…. The Taiwan thing is a complete waste of time for the Us. I don’t know why were are burning up our relationship with China over it…

Edited February 22, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Renegade7]

Yea know, if North Korea nuked Seoul tomorrow and demanded South Korea's unconditional surrender, would the US retaliate with nuking Pyongyang knowing that North Korea can nuke San Francisco?

 

@Destino this is why I don't like this idea of not even trying to stand up to authoritain powers that have nukes simply because they have nukes.  This could spiral out of control fast once thats confirmed as official US policy, and will lead to an unprecedented race to acquire and develop nuclear weapons. 

 

Why would Iran even bother with us on the nuclear deal if they know we won't do **** to them if they actually get a nuke, the reward will justify the risk for them, as will other countries.  And we are clearly showing we don't want to go to war with Iran to stop them getting a nuke, so it will eventually happen at this rate if this precedent is set.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Renegade7

[Barry.Randolphe]

What's stopping Russia from selling nuclear technology to Iran then? They could sell nuclear technology in return for mutual-protection pact

[Wildbunny]

7 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

How is that not an invasion?

AFAIK there's no Russian tanks and soldiers surrounding Kiev as of now.

So it's not.

[Gurgeh]

3 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

AFAIK there's no Russian tanks and soldiers surrounding Kiev as of now.

So it's not.

 

That's like saying the Canadians haven't invaded because their tanks have only reached Boston, and not surrounded Washington.

[Wildbunny]

3 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

 

That's like saying the Canadians haven't invaded because their tanks have only reached Boston, and not surrounded Washington.

Except we're talking about countries that have been called "separatists" for weeks if not more. That kinda makes a real difference on the subject. In your example, Boston would have been fighting for independance from the USA, and Canada would be officially trying to defend them. Even if Canada used mischief and disinformation to make that happen.

 

Somehow you have to take Putin' POV into account because that's the only one he'll actually agrees to talk about, even if you dislike it, that's your base of negotiations if you want to.

 

And if that was as clear cut as you meant it to be, then it would already have been called that way by western leaders. Which it wasn't.

[Gurgeh]

22 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Except we're talking about countries that have been called "separatists" for weeks if not more. That kinda makes a real difference on the subject. In your example, Boston would have been fighting for independance from the USA, and Canada would be officially trying to defend them. Even if Canada used mischief and disinformation to make that happen.

 

Somehow you have to take Putin' POV into account because that's the only one he'll actually agrees to talk about, even if you dislike it, that's your base of negotiations if you want to.

 

And if that was as clear cut as you meant it to be, then it would already have been called that way by western leaders. Which it wasn't.

 

This morning:

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already begun so Britain will sanction Russia, UK Health Secretary Sajid Javid has said.

"You can conclude that the invasion of Ukraine has begun," Javid told Sky News.

 

Russian troops have obviously been in the east of Ukraine for years, but Russia has always denied they were there because (until yesterday) Russia accepted the borders of Ukraine.

 

What's changed is that Putin has declared they no longer accept the borders of Ukraine, at least in the east. He further stated he doesn't even accept that Ukraine is a country. And bear in mind, he doesn't just want Ukraine, he also wants the Baltic republics, Poland, Bulgaria and Romania. This business in the east is him testing the waters, seeing what he can get away with. If Ukraine falls without much push back, it'll be Romania or Bulgaria next.

 

You don't have to respect the POV of someone who's interest is in re-conquering eastern Europe. History tells us where appeasement leads. Military ambition has to be nipped in the bud before it really does get out of hand.

 

 

[Wildbunny]

UK HEalth secretary about foreign affairs? What a big deal. Not BJ talking here.

And you do have to take Putin's POV into account, otherwise he's not gonna talk about it.

 

For sure, there will be a next, that's obvious. But Putin put it in our backyard as it's up to us to declare war or not. Right now, he's not. You can call that as much as you want, it's more like annexion, than invasion.

 

If you want to talk about invasion, we could talk 2003 in Irak. Would be more fitting.

 

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

AFAIK there's no Russian tanks and soldiers surrounding Kiev as of now.

So it's not.

 

You have an interesting take on the news for somebody who takes responsibility for reporting it in the stadium...

 

Edit: talking about you reporting sports news, and maybe that's why.

 

@visionary saw you lurking last night, hope you doing alright...

Edited February 22, 2022 by Renegade7