Running on the Rollercoaster: Antonio Gibson and the Rushers

[KDawg]

I am happy to see people are realizing Gibson isnt a bellcow. I was a fan of his coming out and still am. But the key to his success is keeping him fresh. He can run with good power downhill when he’s fresh, especially in situations towards the end of the game. But he wears out very quickly. He is a 10 touch a game kind of guy. When he’s on fire he can go more. When he’s struggling go less. Keep some tread on his tires and watch the difference.

 

McKissick is the third down back. We need a bellcow. Patterson as the primary backup. That is an excellent RB corps.

[method man]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am happy to see people are realizing Gibson isnt a bellcow. I was a fan of his coming out and still am. But the key to his success is keeping him fresh. He can run with good power downhill when he’s fresh, especially in situations towards the end of the game. But he wears out very quickly. He is a 10 touch a game kind of guy. When he’s on fire he can go more. When he’s struggling go less. Keep some tread on his tires and watch the difference.

 

McKissick is the third down back. We need a bellcow. Patterson as the primary backup. That is an excellent RB corps.

So what do you do with Gibson? Relegate him to third string behind a new guy?

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, method man said:

So what do you do with Gibson? Relegate him to third string behind a new guy?

Power back and get him touches and see where he’s at and play it by ear. This first, second and third string stuff is beyond antiquated. Put them in advantageous positions and let them go and adjust the plan accordingly. 

[daveakl]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Power back and get him touches and see where he’s at and play it by ear. This first, second and third string stuff is beyond antiquated. Put them in advantageous positions and let them go and adjust the plan accordingly. 

No reason why it can't look like Dallas:

RB1: 151 for 695  (15.1 attempts per game)

RB2: 90 for 495 (9.0 attempts per game)

[Leonard Washington]

They’re wearing him down. He has “I’m exhausted” body language and that is partly why Patterson is getting more touches. His vision is suspect at times but he runs through contact and up the backs of teammates in a special way. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

4 hours ago, method man said:

Gibson is a guy that you milk during his rookie deal but let someone else overpay for on his second deal. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…this team cannot let McKissic go

 

 

I see what you're sayin, and I agree on what McKissic means to this team, but a huge difference between McKissic and Gibson, is age/mileage.

McKissic is 28, and has been around the block a few times, and for a Runningback that age is getting up there.

So locking him up to a long-term deal may overlap into his declining years. But I'd be okay with it, if we can cut him loose early without serious cap implications, if age and wear takes its toll soon.

 

2 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said:

They’re wearing him down. He has “I’m exhausted” body language and that is partly why Patterson is getting more touches. His vision is suspect at times but he runs through contact and up the backs of teammates in a special way. 

 

I don't know if that's a proper justification. I havn't heard that before, and in fact I've heard the opposite ; a lot of the good runners get better as the game wears on.

Not sure if I want a guy that wears out, within the game.

Give him some oxygen on the sideline if he needs it.

 

 

[Burgold]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

All of this!

 

 I continue to say his ability to provide a power running game out of the shotgun set is unique.

He’s trending way up. Outside of the fumbling 😕 

This is more of a coaching response than an Antonio Gibson issue, but I don't really like these 4th and 1 runs out of the shot gun. They seem to be fairly successful, but it just feels wrong.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I am happy to see people are realizing Gibson isnt a bellcow. I was a fan of his coming out and still am. But the key to his success is keeping him fresh. He can run with good power downhill when he’s fresh, especially in situations towards the end of the game. But he wears out very quickly. He is a 10 touch a game kind of guy. When he’s on fire he can go more. When he’s struggling go less. Keep some tread on his tires and watch the difference.

 

McKissick is the third down back. We need a bellcow. Patterson as the primary backup. That is an excellent RB corps.

Him being the bell cow back is a primary factor in upsetting both Bucs and Panthers. Without the fumble he would’ve been above 20plus carriers in consecutive games. He’s assisting the team in forming an identity on offense. 

 

He’s trending in the direction of being more of a bell cow guy, I don’t think hes proven that yet. Admittedly, I’ve been up and down with him this season, so I’m not on the other extreme of your position. Has a light come on for him over the last two games?
 

How do you define bell cow back? 
 

 

[KDawg]

He really wasn’t the reason the team beat either team. He almost cost both games though.

 

Amount of carries you’re getting doesn’t define you as a bellcow. A bellcow is someone that should be getting that amount of carries. Gibson shouldn’t. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by KDawg

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, Leonard Washington said:

They’re wearing him down. He has “I’m exhausted” body language and that is partly why Patterson is getting more touches. His vision is suspect at times but he runs through contact and up the backs of teammates in a special way. 

 

Go back and watch his runs the last couple of games.  His vision and decisiveness have improved dramatically.  I'm not sure what made him click.  My best guess would be modeling.  Which is a great teaching tool.  I think watching an experienced RB like Patterson is helping Gibson.  Especially since Patterson is stealing carries now.  Gibson is probably thinking that coaches want to see him running more like JP.  That's what he's giving them.  Only he's a lot bigger and a lot faster!  I'm not ready to throw in the towel on him.  I would make him sleep with a football though.  

[ThomasRoane]

28 minutes ago, Burgold said:

This is more of a coaching response than an Antonio Gibson issue, but I don't really like these 4th and 1 runs out of the shot gun. They seem to be fairly successful, but it just feels wrong.

 

That's an adjustment to Flowers being slow off the ball.  Once he gets on his guy though Flowers is a bully.  I like him.  But he's not very quick.  To be fair, the dude is huge and typically players his size are tackles.  Guards are usually shorter and more stout.  But he's very good in pass pro and when he locks on he tries to hurt his guy.  Where before, Flowers man was getting in to affect the play, from the gun, the RB has the ability to read the block and make a cut.  Flowers can now just take his man wherever he wants to go.  I used to coach my players to take him where he wants to go and tuck him into bed.  (Pancake his _ _ _!)

 

I'll give Turner credit on this.  It's a good adjustment and it's an improvement over Jay Gruden.  Trying to force players to do things they weren't good at.  Like expecting Jordan Reid or Veronn Davis to block anybody!

[wit33]

33 minutes ago, KDawg said:

He really wasn’t the reason the team beat either team. He almost cost both games though.

 

Amount of carries you’re getting doesn’t define you as a bellcow. A bellcow is someone that should be getting that amount of carries. Gibson shouldn’t. 

Interesting take.
 

Figured it would be unanimous he was a key reason for the team winning the last two games. Guess not. 

 

I disagree with you 100%. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by wit33

[Stone Cold]

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Interesting take.
 

Figured it would be unanimous he was a key reason for the team winning the last two games. Guess not. 

 

I disagree with you 100%. 

Yeah, I’m with you on this.  Couldn’t disagree more.  The only thing keeping Gibson from taking the next step to being the bell cow for us is his fumbling issue.  I think he gets better with touches like most backs.  

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Interesting take.
 

Figured it would be unanimous he was a key reason for the team winning the last two games. Guess not. 

 

I disagree with you 100%. 

So his fumble and going out of bounds was why we won?

 

The week before his 2.5 ypc was why we won?

 

This week McKissick was much more of a reason we won the game than Gibson. 

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Him being the bell cow back is a primary factor in upsetting both Bucs and Panthers. Without the fumble he would’ve been above 20plus carriers in consecutive games. He’s assisting the team in forming an identity on offense. 

 

 

As our roster is currently constructed and utilized he absolutely is being used as a bellcow. He gets fed the vast majority of reps and its not close. I too also relegate a lot of his fumble issues to mostly exhaustion as the team will go major stretches where they simply ride this guy into the ground. He put himself in the doghouse and still got 19 carries last week. That's w/o playing like a whole quarter of ball. Quite the accomplishment.

 

it is a bit understandable given current roster construction, I don't think McK has seen more than 10 carries in an NFL game more than twice in his career, he can only take so much punishment. You can't gameplan to give guys like that 15 or something, so his rushing rep counts will naturally be low outside of injury replacement. 

 

The idea I'm looking at is you need a big back to take away a lot of those power rush opportunities from Gibby, to improve the quality of reps he does get. Right now he gets a lot of play blasting up the middle vs heavies. While he CAN do that, it feels like a waste of potential. Runs up the gut are necessary, but every slam up the middle w/ Gibby is a bounce play, or pass play to him that gets taken away down the line. If he is only going to get 20 touches, don't make 13 of them running through brick walls

 

Get a big guy in here to share the load, and your more likely to see Gibby in the Kamara like role we all envision him in.

Kamara did not get constantly wasted over his career as they had Tayson Hills/Ingrams/others to help with the dirty work, allowing for a larger share of Kamara's usage to be more dangerous opportunities. 

 

While Gibby is currently our bellcow, and even one with some decent potential, that is far from his ideal role. He would be so much more explosive if more of his touches came via the passing game or screens/outside runs. To do that, somebody has to take up the slack in short yardage and interior rushing game and there is not a guy on the roster who can do that right now to the degree we need.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, FootballZombie said:

 

As our roster is currently constructed and utilized he absolutely is being used as a bellcow. He gets fed the vast majority of reps and its not close. I too also relegate a lot of his fumble issues to mostly exhaustion as the team will go major stretches where they simply ride this guy into the ground. He put himself in the doghouse and still got 19 carries last week. That's w/o playing like a whole quarter of ball. Quite the accomplishment.

 

it is a bit understandable given current roster construction, I don't think McK has seen more than 10 carries in an NFL game more than twice in his career, he can only take so much punishment. You can't gameplan to give guys like that 15 or something, so his rushing rep counts will naturally be low outside of injury replacement. 

 

The idea I'm looking at is you need a big back to take away a lot of those power rush opportunities from Gibby, to improve the quality of reps he does get. Right now he gets a lot of play blasting up the middle vs heavies. While he CAN do that, it feels like a waste of potential. Runs up the gut are necessary, but every slam up the middle w/ Gibby is a bounce play, or pass play to him that gets taken away down the line. If he is only going to get 20 touches, don't make 13 of them running through brick walls

 

Get a big guy in here to share the load, and your more likely to see Gibby in the Kamara like role we all envision him in.

Kamara did not get constantly wasted over his career as they had Tayson Hills/Ingrams/others to help with the dirty work, allowing for a larger share of Kamara's usage to be more dangerous opportunities. 

 

While Gibby is currently our bellcow, and even one with some decent potential, that is far from his ideal role. He would be so much more explosive if more of his touches came via the passing game or screens/outside runs. To do that, somebody has to take up the slack in short yardage and interior rushing game and there is not a guy on the roster who can do that right now to the degree we need.

This is exactly my thoughts. He is playing the role of bellcow. However, he isn’t one. 
 

I agree with the takes above that he runs harder as the game goes on. But he also loses speed and burst and wears himself down to the point he is consistently injured in some capacity due to his running style. 
 

Effort and ability are not minuses for him. He has both of those things in spades. Lowering the amount of touches he’s getting per game,  lowering his total fatigue and being allowed to get the ball more in space would maximize his value. 
 

I’d be willing to bet he actually has a higher average per touch with less touches. Especially if he starts getting the bulk of his work in the 2nd quarter onward. 
 

We are using him poorly. And that is effecting his production and perceived value. 
 

He is an excellent player. So let him be. 

[petey hodge]

I like this thread!!!

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

The fumbling thing has grown as he became pro.

In 2 years at Memphis, he fumbled 2 times, and recovered both of his own fumbles.

In less than 2 years at Washington, about a year and a half, he has fumbled 7 times, with the opponent recovering 5 of those.

[Est.1974]

5 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

The fumbling thing has grown as he became pro.

In 2 years at Memphis, he fumbled 2 times, and recovered both of his own fumbles.

In less than 2 years at Washington, about a year and a half, he has fumbled 7 times, with the opponent recovering 5 of those.

In reality I don’t think he had too many touches of the ball in college.

[wit33]

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

As our roster is currently constructed and utilized he absolutely is being used as a bellcow. He gets fed the vast majority of reps and its not close. I too also relegate a lot of his fumble issues to mostly exhaustion as the team will go major stretches where they simply ride this guy into the ground. He put himself in the doghouse and still got 19 carries last week. That's w/o playing like a whole quarter of ball. Quite the accomplishment.

 

One can easily attribute his fumbling to inexperience playing the RB position .

 

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

it is a bit understandable given current roster construction, I don't think McK has seen more than 10 carries in an NFL game more than twice in his career, he can only take so much punishment. You can't gameplan to give guys like that 15 or something, so his rushing rep counts will naturally be low outside of injury replacement. 
 

 

My guess is they don’t want to create a run game around a scat back on early downs. Want a guy with speed and power— Gibson provides both. 

 

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

The idea I'm looking at is you need a big back to take away a lot of those power rush opportunities from Gibby, to improve the quality of reps he does get. Right now he gets a lot of play blasting up the middle vs heavies. While he CAN do that, it feels like a waste of potential. Runs up the gut are necessary, but every slam up the middle w/ Gibby is a bounce play, or pass play to him that gets taken away down the line. If he is only going to get 20 touches, don't make 13 of them running through brick walls

 

I’m not totally on the train he must be the bell cow back, but he’s shown early in his career there's potential to do so at what I believe is an elite level out of shotgun (I like him less when running from under center, though he’s made improvements this year). 

 

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Get a big guy in here to share the load, and your more likely to see Gibby in the Kamara like role we all envision him in.

Kamara did not get constantly wasted over his career as they had Tayson Hills/Ingrams/others to help with the dirty work, allowing for a larger share of Kamara's usage to be more dangerous opportunities. 
 

 

I’m not a Patterson supporter and much rather have another big back, so not far off from you there.

 

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

While Gibby is currently our bellcow, and even one with some decent potential, that is far from his ideal role. He would be so much more explosive if more of his touches came via the passing game or screens/outside runs. To do that, somebody has to take up the slack in short yardage and interior rushing game and there is not a guy on the roster who can do that right now to the degree we need.

We disagree on his potential in this role, I feel there’s an elite ceiling and he’s flirted with it the last two games. I don’t think Washington wins without great running from him throughout and situationally. 
 

This is not to say he couldn’t flourish in the role you’re envisioning. It seems the organization up to this point has different plans. My guess is they draft a RB pretty early next season. Need more depth there. I operate under the premise all RBs are going to get injured every season— all are injury prone. 

[Warhead36]

56 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

The fumbling thing has grown as he became pro.

In 2 years at Memphis, he fumbled 2 times, and recovered both of his own fumbles.

In less than 2 years at Washington, about a year and a half, he has fumbled 7 times, with the opponent recovering 5 of those.

He was a WR in college so he got less touches and he's more often being tackled by DBs(college DBs at that) who aren't as savvy to go for strips as LBs and DL in traffic.

[Playaction2Sanders]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He was a WR in college so he got less touches and he's more often being tackled by DBs(college DBs at that) who aren't as savvy to go for strips as LBs and DL in traffic.

 

He didn't even have 100 total touches in college. His fumbles have got to stop, his production yesterday gives us hope but we don't see enough of it. He still has the hairline fracture right? We'll see, Derrick Henry didn't become the beast is today till what his 4th year, cause he was playing behind Murray his 1st two years and took another season after he had the job to become who he is. If a legit RB falls to us in the draft I don't see why we should pass up on him, but keep letting these guys grow.

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

In reality I don’t think he had too many touches of the ball in college.

 

40 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He was a WR in college so he got less touches

 

 

Less touches, due to being benched for fumbling ?

I kid

Edited November 22, 2021 by Malapropismic Depository

[Peregrine]

I think Gibson has shown the potential to be a top 5 RB in the league.  If he can just learn to secure the ball like Tiki Barber did, and just improve a little(hes not that far from it) on some of his reads and vision, hes there.  Honestly hes playing as a top 10 RB if he doesnt have the fumbles, so thats what he needs to clean up.

[Malapropismic Depository]

I was just watching the replay of Gibson's fumble.

And Milne is walking around the pile, and can't take his eyes off Gibson. Looks like Milne is like, "I feel ya, bro"