The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

But why is there curiosity to see if Wentz can play this style?  Wouldn’t it be better to see if Howell can do this?  They are winning with this formula with Heinicke as the QB.  Why put a borderline playoff season at risk just to see if we should pay a guy $26M to hand the ball off?

 

Wentz is a sunk cost at this point.  Do we really want to bring him back next year to run this kind of offense when we could use that $26M to keep the strengths of this team intact?

Sure, I think we’d all love to see Howell, but from the sounds of Ron not long ago - he’s working on the most basic of things like footwork.  I didn’t glean from his comments that he at any point would be going with Howell.

[FLSkinz83]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

That IS the point. A good QB makes so many great plays the bad ones are forgiven. Heinicke is NOT a great player. So his mistakes stand out.

 

That is the ENTIRE point. 

 

It's not piling on. It's what/who he is as a QB.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't have strengths. He does. I've laid them out many times here and in other threads. But he is a handcuff. It just so happens that the handcuff has moxie and our OC changed gameplans and it has tremendously benefited this team. And yes, Heinicke may be limited but he does deserve some credit for the run this team is on. 

 

TH hasn't thrown the ball more than 33 times this year.  He's thrown it under 30 in 4 of 6 games.   He's not being asked to do a lot.  I think he's capable of doing more if given the opportunity, just like we saw last year in several games.

 

Cooley has been giving TH high marks, and he's no fan of the team anymore.   Logan Paulsen said that after looking back at the film against the Falcons, TH played better than he thought.

 

Nobody thinks TH is the savior, but what is the alternative going forward?    I'd rather go with TH and Howell than give someone like Jimmy G 25 mil.

[Ball Security]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Because wentz is capable of exploiting the deep play action opportunities that the run heavy scheme opens up and heinicke isn't 

Sure, Wentz is more capable of hitting the deep strikes, but are you confident that our pass protection can hold up long enough for the deep routes to develop? 

[redskinss]

Just now, Ball Security said:

Sure, Wentz is more capable of hitting the deep strikes, but are you confident that our pass protection can hold up long enough for the deep routes to develop? 

Confident? No.

But with a very stout running game that we didn't have earlier in the year its possible our opponents aren't pinning their ears back nearly as much.

 

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

TH hasn't thrown the ball more than 33 times this year.  He's thrown it under 30 in 4 of 6 games.   He's not being asked to do a lot.  I think he's capable of doing more if given the opportunity, just like we saw last year in several games.

 

Cooley has been giving TH high marks, and he's no fan of the team anymore.   Logan Paulsen said that after looking back at the film against the Falcons, TH played better than he thought.

 

Nobody thinks TH is the savior, but what is the alternative going forward?    I'd rather go with TH and Howell than give someone like Jimmy G 25 mil.

 

There is no alternative that is visible other than Howell. He is the alternative at the moment. But that doesn't mean that I have to think Heinicke is a good quarterback.

 

But he is who we have.

 

I also find myself on both sides of the Heinicke coin at times. There are times where I'm the one defending him. Times where I'm the one pointing out his poor play.

[Dan T.]

The prospect of Howell seeing the field disappeared once the Commanders clawed their way back into playoff contention. Short of a total team collapse down the stretch, Sam and the clipboard will remain best friends.

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

The prospect of Howell seeing the field disappeared once the Commanders clawed their way back into playoff contention. Short of a total team collapse down the stretch, Sam and the clipboard will remain best friends.

No kidding.

 

We’re talking about future. Not now.

Edited December 2, 2022 by KDawg

[wit33]

Heineke is probably clamoring for the team to go down two scores early in a game to pad some cool stats. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by wit33

[mistertim]

39 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Nobody thinks TH is the savior, but what is the alternative going forward?    I'd rather go with TH and Howell than give someone like Jimmy G 25 mil.

 

I think it depends on who you ask.

 

Based on historical data, if you ask our coaches the answer would appear to be: "Pretty much any other starting caliber QB" since they've been absolutely open about being in desperate need of an upgrade for the last 2 seasons.

 

If you ask me or KDawg, we'd say Howell, but that doesn't seem to be on the coaches' radar at the moment. Why? Hard to know for sure.

 

I assume the Heinicke fans would say Heinicke, even though most of them claim in here they don't think he's the future. But they were plenty convinced before, so I doubt that completely disappeared.

 

Another option is the draft, though we probably won't be in a position to get a top tier guy unless one unexpectedly falls to a point where we can trade up for him.

 

But I absolutely agree with you on Jimmy G. Not interested; IMO he's fool's gold. The truth of the matter is that, barring Howell turning out to be a gem (which I think is possible) or an unexpected QB dropping in the draft, we're probably in QB purgatory and may remain there for a while.

[FLSkinz83]

Let me point out a few other tidbits...

 

1)  We've trailed by more than one score twice since TH took over....Packers and Colts.....TH was tremendous after we went down two scores to lead us back.

 

2)  Since last year, We've had the ball 6 times trailing by one score late in the 4th quarter.   4 times, TH led the team on a GW drive.   Twice we got in the red zone and he threw INT's

[Dan T.]

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

No kidding.

 

We’re talking about future. Not now.

 

Next preseason will be interesting....

[Ball Security]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it depends on who you ask.

 

Based on historical data, if you ask our coaches the answer would appear to be: "Pretty much any other starting caliber QB" since they've been absolutely open about being in desperate need of an upgrade for the last 2 seasons.

 

If you ask me or KDawg, we'd say Howell, but that doesn't seem to be on the coaches' radar at the moment. Why? Hard to know for sure.

 

I assume the Heinicke fans would say Heinicke, even though most of them claim in here they don't think he's the future. But they were plenty convinced before, so I doubt that completely disappeared.

 

Another option is the draft, though we probably won't be in a position to get a top tier guy unless one unexpectedly falls to a point where we can trade up for him.

 

But I absolutely agree with you on Jimmy G. Not interested; IMO he's fool's gold. The truth of the matter is that, barring Howell turning out to be a gem (which I think is possible) or an unexpected QB dropping in the draft, we're probably in QB purgatory and may remain there for a while.

The QB market is going to be a lot different this offseason than the last one.  We’re coming off a year where trading assets for a QB has really backfired (Den, Was, Car, and a TBD on Cle) with a really bad rookie class.  This year there are going to be just about as many teams with question marks with a larger pool of FA targets.  The problem is that these free agents are top 20-40 QBs with no apparent game changers in the mix (Watson, Rodgers, Wilson). 
 

In the draft, there are more projected first rounders and others with some traits compared to last year.

 

I don’t think the answer is out there outside of the draft.  With a bunch of guys potentially hitting the market (Heinicke, Wentz, Daniel Jones, Jimmy G, Darnold, Mayfield, etc) the cost to get a FA could be less than Trubisky and Mariota.

 

Can they go into next season with Howell and a draft pick?  That’s pretty risky.

 

Can they get a FA coached up and prepared to start the season?  

[CapsSkins]

30 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it depends on who you ask.

 

Based on historical data, if you ask our coaches the answer would appear to be: "Pretty much any other starting caliber QB" since they've been absolutely open about being in desperate need of an upgrade for the last 2 seasons.

 

If you ask me or KDawg, we'd say Howell, but that doesn't seem to be on the coaches' radar at the moment. Why? Hard to know for sure.

 

I assume the Heinicke fans would say Heinicke, even though most of them claim in here they don't think he's the future. But they were plenty convinced before, so I doubt that completely disappeared.

 

Another option is the draft, though we probably won't be in a position to get a top tier guy unless one unexpectedly falls to a point where we can trade up for him.

 

But I absolutely agree with you on Jimmy G. Not interested; IMO he's fool's gold. The truth of the matter is that, barring Howell turning out to be a gem (which I think is possible) or an unexpected QB dropping in the draft, we're probably in QB purgatory and may remain there for a while.

 

I don't understand how you could be disinterested in Jimmy G when you see how the team is managing to win with Heinicke.

 

Jimmy G could take this team to a Super Bowl. Hell, Taylor ****ing Heinicke may take us to the playoffs and win a game or two.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I don't understand how you could be disinterested in Jimmy G when you see how the team is managing to win with Heinicke.

 

Jimmy G could take this team to a Super Bowl. Hell, Taylor ****ing Heinicke may take us to the playoffs and win a game or two.

 

Because as I said, I think Jimmy G is fool's gold. There's a reason the Niners have seemingly been desperate for an upgrade for years, and spent three 1st round picks on his ostensible replacement.

 

Jimmy G has never been anything other than utterly mediocre in the regular season and pretty much dreadful in the post season. The Niners teams usually won despite him, not because of him.

 

It's only this season that he's played above average, and I don't trust one year wonders, especially when they've never shown that before.

 

Would he be an upgrade over Heinicke? Sure. He's more or less Heinicke with a decent arm. But is that worth the enormous contract he'll probably be asking for, or that plus two 1st round picks if the Niners opt to go the non-exclusive tag route? No way in hell.

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Because as I said, I think Jimmy G is fool's gold. There's a reason the Niners have seemingly been desperate for an upgrade for years, and spent three 1st round picks on his ostensible replacement.

 

Jimmy G has never been anything other than utterly mediocre in the regular season and pretty much dreadful in the post season. The Niners teams usually won despite him, not because of him.

 

It's only this season that he's played above average, and I don't trust one year wonders, especially when they've never shown that before.

 

Would he be an upgrade over Heinicke? Sure. He's more or less Heinicke with a decent arm. But is that worth the enormous contract he'll probably be asking for, or that plus two 1st round picks if the Niners opt to go the non-exclusive tag route? No way in hell.

 

There is no way the 9ers tag him. He just did a good soldier move and restructured his contract to make less money this year for the team. Tagging him would burn the bridge not to mention potentially upset Lance.

 

SF is going to let him walk. And if/when they do, I'm not sure why you think he's going to get some big monster contract. Especially not after the Russell Wilson debacle.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think we should be cautious of how well X player played in another system and expecting that to translate here.  We’ve seen that more than ever, with a variety of skill levels, this season.

 

I’ll take Jimmy G if we get to have Shanahan as well.  🤣

[MariusVT]

23 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I think both things can be true. Heinicke has gotten super lucky on some dropped interceptions, and his ability to escape pressure helps the offense in general.

 

Don't necessarily agree with "ride or die with Heiny the rest of the year" though. If TH starts to stink up the joint then it could definitely make sense to either try Wentz again (who knows how he'd play with a much better rushing attack and a decent IOL) or give Howell a shot. The latter would only be the case if we were 100% eliminated from the paloffs.

 

Yea, if things go south and we're out of it, 100% I'd like to see Howell get game time.  I don't think there's any point going back to Wentz, especially if we're eliminated.  Lets see what we've got for next year.

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

There is no way the 9ers tag him. He just did a good soldier move and restructured his contract to make less money this year for the team. Tagging him would burn the bridge not to mention potentially upset Lance.

 

SF is going to let him walk. And if/when they do, I'm not sure why you think he's going to get some big monster contract. Especially not after the Russell Wilson debacle.

 

Because the contract size will be decide by the market and who else is available.

 

Yes there have absolutely been debacles when it comes to huge trades and contracts (though we have no clue how the Watson deal will turn out for the Browns), but that doesn't change the fact that a franchise QB is still quite possibly the most important position in all of sports and there are plenty of teams who are desperate for one.

 

Jimmy G is putting up career numbers this season, which means he'll likely be able to demand much more money than he would before, and there are probably teams who will pay it. I just don't want us to be that team because outside of this season, the guy is at best mediocre.

 

And as I said, I don't trust one year wonders. Especially if he's also been playing for possibly the best offensive mind in the NFL for most of his career.

[CapsSkins]

I honestly can't believe some of the posters who have been lamenting how inadequate Heinicke is and saying "if only we had a real NFL QB" we'd be doing so much better are turning their nose up at Jimmy G.

 

He isn't Baker Mayfield. He's a legitimate NFL starting quarterback. Nobody is saying pay him $40M or trade two 1st's to get him, and nothing indicates that would be the market price.

 

It would be negligence not to pursue him in some fashion if/when he's available this summer as part of the overall QB1 search for 2023.

[Ball Security]

10 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

There is no way the 9ers tag him. He just did a good soldier move and restructured his contract to make less money this year for the team. Tagging him would burn the bridge not to mention potentially upset Lance.

 

SF is going to let him walk. And if/when they do, I'm not sure why you think he's going to get some big monster contract. Especially not after the Russell Wilson debacle.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/jimmy-garoppolo-14472/market-value/
 

Will he get that.  Probably not.  But there are multiple teams needing a QB and he has been the most successful FA (I’m not going to count Brady and Lamar here).

 

The other valuations are…uh…interesting. 

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/jimmy-garoppolo-14472/market-value/
 

Will he get that.  Probably not.  But there are multiple teams needing a QB and he has been the most successful FA (I’m not going to count Brady and Lamar here).

 

The other valuations are…uh…interesting. 

 

Okay so Spotrac's valuation using comps is at ~$35M.

 

I'd increase the guaranteed portion in exchange for lowering the annual cap hit to $30M and call it a day. We're a QB away - get the guy for the next 3 years and go contend for a Super Bowl with this defense. If he misses time due to injury, you know Heinicke can come in and win a few games.

 

Who says no? 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by CapsSkins

[Ball Security]

7 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Okay so Spotrac's valuation using comps is at ~$35M.

 

I'd increase the guaranteed portion in exchange for lowering the annual cap hit to $30M and call it a day. We're a QB away - get the guy for the next 3 years and go contend for a Super Bowl with this defense. If he misses time due to injury, you know Heinicke can come in and win a few games.

 

Who says no? 

 

Look at what Heinicke is projected to get. 😎

[mh86]

17 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

I honestly can't believe some of the posters who have been lamenting how inadequate Heinicke is and saying "if only we had a real NFL QB" we'd be doing so much better are turning their nose up at Jimmy G.

 

He isn't Baker Mayfield. He's a legitimate NFL starting quarterback. Nobody is saying pay him $40M or trade two 1st's to get him, and nothing indicates that would be the market price.

 

It would be negligence not to pursue him in some fashion if/when he's available this summer as part of the overall QB1 search for 2023.

I honestly can believe the hivers that think Jimmy g is worthy of wasting time on. We’d be going for a slight upgrade. I think most would rather dump wentz and keep our D signed. Getting Jimmy g is giving us what we already have, maybe marginally better. At least heini has experience in this system that from the likes of Fitzpatrick think is difficult to learn. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by mh86

[philibusters]

52 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

The QB market is going to be a lot different this offseason than the last one.  We’re coming off a year where trading assets for a QB has really backfired (Den, Was, Car, and a TBD on Cle) with a really bad rookie class.  This year there are going to be just about as many teams with question marks with a larger pool of FA targets.  The problem is that these free agents are top 20-40 QBs with no apparent game changers in the mix (Watson, Rodgers, Wilson). 

 

I bet Wilson would be available.

Edited December 2, 2022 by philibusters

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

I honestly can't believe some of the posters who have been lamenting how inadequate Heinicke is and saying "if only we had a real NFL QB" we'd be doing so much better are turning their nose up at Jimmy G.

 

He isn't Baker Mayfield. He's a legitimate NFL starting quarterback. Nobody is saying pay him $40M or trade two 1st's to get him, and nothing indicates that would be the market price.

 

It would be negligence not to pursue him in some fashion if/when he's available this summer as part of the overall QB1 search for 2023.

 

Just because I don't think Heinicke is a good NFL QB doesn't mean I'd want to give up a huge contract for a guy who's a slight upgrade. He'll probably be the only decent QB to hit the FA market so someone will undoubtedly overpay drastically for him in the desperate (and probably foolish) hope that he'll be the final piece they need.

 

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Okay so Spotrac's valuation using comps is at ~$35M.

 

I'd increase the guaranteed portion in exchange for lowering the annual cap hit to $30M and call it a day. We're a QB away - get the guy for the next 3 years and go contend for a Super Bowl with this defense. If he misses time due to injury, you know Heinicke can come in and win a few games.

 

Who says no? 

 

Smart teams. Because they know Jimmy G is incredibly unlikely to put their team over the top. He's been carried by great supporting casts and defenses for his entire career.

 

Is it really worth it to give a huge contract to a QB who will require a great supporting cast on offense and a great defense in order to do anything of note? Are we really going to bank on the same game plan we're using today working for the next 3 seasons?

 

The Niners are an anomaly because they've somehow managed to keep a great supporting cast for many years. Having the best offensive mind in the NFL also helps a ton with that. They're the exception, not the rule.