The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

Carr is still in New Orleans, could he decide Saints are the place and Saints just need to make a deal with Raiders? Stay tuned.
 

If this happens, that should shut the Carr talk.  With Brady retired, this would instantly makes Saints Nfc South champions.

Edited February 9, 2023 by 88Comrade2000

[Warhead36]

QB competitions are dumb. Pick a guy and commit to him from day one.

[KDawg]

19 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I never knew Buechy was real b4 today. I just assumed he was some imaginary dude from an inside joke.

 

Color me surprised.

I’m not mad. Just disappointed.

[skinsfan66]

36 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

QB competitions are dumb. Pick a guy and commit to him from day one.

Jets did that ,how'd it that work out? Wash did that last 2 years? SFran did it too?  Competiton is supposed to make you better.  Go with the winner of the comp. I am sure the players want the best.

[KDawg]

QB competitions don’t work when there is a rookie you want to invest in. Or a young guy you are trying to invest in. In order to get the most out of a young QB you want to fully support them. That means they are either your day one starter or you make it known the plan is to sit them for the foreseeable future. You can’t be half in on a young QB. That destroys their development.

 

QB competitions are great for teams with journeymen options, though.

[wit33]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Are you telling me you seriously don't see the enormous and glaring difference between QBs like Cam or Lamar and QBs like Mahomes or Allen?

 

 

Way to sneak Mahomes in there lol

 

You speak about Cam or Lamar as if their careers have been bad man. This is where you’re way out in left field and stuck on what you think a QB should be. Cam had a good career. Lamar Jackson is off to a great start to his career. 
 

Because Cam didn’t become a hall of fame QB, you just throw him away. The wild thing it ended being his shoulder injury on a pass made in the pocket that detailed his career. 

 

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Who do you think will more likely be playing at an All-Pro level 5 years from now: Mahomes or Lamar? I think anyone who says Lamar is delusional, and that's the biggest difference. Running QBs are a flash in the pan. Dual threat QBs can last.

Lamar isn’t a dual threat lol 

 

Lamar getting compared to the potential future GOAT. Okay, you got me. The logic is missing me. Jackson has been a dynamic winning QB since he’s entered the league. 
 

I think he’ll be fine for his second contract, but would become weary about signing him when entering mid 30s, no argument from me. Who knows, maybe he becomes better within the pocket and achieves a better marriage between using his legs and making plays in the pocket when older. 
 

Totally fine with giving a 5 year deal. 

 

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

But debating this with you is probably about as fruitful as debating the cap or rookie QB contracts. You've staked out your position and you're anchored to it with high tensile steel and it will never change. So I guess we can just agree to disagree.

I have my position as you do, I am no more anchored in than you are. My anchored position has a dual threat QB who struggles within the pocket and not ver accurate (especially early in his career) in the SB. 
 

You don’t like dual threat QBs, that’s a philosophical thing and/or something within you, not a right or wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Carr is still in New Orleans, could he decide Saints are the place and Saints just need to make a deal with Raiders? Stay tuned.
 

If this happens, that should shut the Carr talk.  With Brady retired, this would instantly makes Saints Nfc South champions.

The defense will let him down, but he’ll have 6 comeback victories and finish 9-8. That just might do it in the NFC South. 

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

QB competitions don’t work when there is a rookie you want to invest in. Or a young guy you are trying to invest in. In order to get the most out of a young QB you want to fully support them. That means they are either your day one starter or you make it known the plan is to sit them for the foreseeable future. You can’t be half in on a young QB. That destroys their development.

 

QB competitions are great for teams with journeymen options, though.

I agree with this. Just go all in. I think too many coaches fall into trap that I must treat the QB position like the rest of the team. The position is different and as you mentioned, the young guy rarely benefits from it. Creates division in the Locker room. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

As far as QB competition goes, the way Ron looks to be doing it IMO is perfect.  You give the young QB, the edge, but give him some competition, not serious competition but enough so he fights for it some.

 

So that means not a Derek Carr, not a Jimmy G.  But a dude like Keenum or Mariota or a dude like that is fine.  Also you don't want your backup QB to suck, you want a dude who can play some in a pinch.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

3 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

Jets did that ,how'd it that work out? Wash did that last 2 years? SFran did it too?  Competiton is supposed to make you better.  Go with the winner of the comp. I am sure the players want the best.

Wilson was legitimately terrible, but you drafted him #2 overall. You have to commit to him. 

 

Lance got hurt for the 49ers. Who knows how he would have turned out. 

 

When was the last time a team had a QB competition and it actually ended up producing high quality QB play? Good franchises identify a guy they like and commit to him and allow him to develop properly.

[Going Commando]

DAWG confirmed.  Heinicke got the dog ray vision.  He can see that Sammy has that dog in him too.

[Koolblue13]

SamWow got that DAWG in him!

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

SamWow got that DAWG in him!

 

Who knew, amirite?

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Who knew, amirite?

You've been tellin' um Mr President of the SammyHo Fan Club.

[mistertim]

12 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Way to sneak Mahomes in there lol

 

You speak about Cam or Lamar as if their careers have been bad man. This is where you’re way out in left field and stuck on what you think a QB should be. Cam had a good career. Lamar Jackson is off to a great start to his career. 
 

Because Cam didn’t become a hall of fame QB, you just throw him away. The wild thing it ended being his shoulder injury on a pass made in the pocket that detailed his career. 

 

Lamar isn’t a dual threat lol 

 

Lamar getting compared to the potential future GOAT. Okay, you got me. The logic is missing me. Jackson has been a dynamic winning QB since he’s entered the league. 
 

I think he’ll be fine for his second contract, but would become weary about signing him when entering mid 30s, no argument from me. Who knows, maybe he becomes better within the pocket and achieves a better marriage between using his legs and making plays in the pocket when older. 
 

Totally fine with giving a 5 year deal. 

 

I have my position as you do, I am no more anchored in than you are. My anchored position has a dual threat QB who struggles within the pocket and not ver accurate (especially early in his career) in the SB. 
 

You don’t like dual threat QBs, that’s a philosophical thing and/or something within you, not a right or wrong. 

 

 

I used Mahomes as an example of what I see as a true franchise dual threat QB. Same with Allen, Watson, Hurts, Wilson (though at this point Watson and Wilson are TBD). And no, I don't think Lamar is a dual threat QB, because to me dual threat implies a great passer first and a great runner second. Lamar is a great runner first and mediocre passer second. So to me that makes him more of a single threat QB. If you take away his running then he's not really going to scare anyone through the air as a pocket passer. The same can't be said for those other true dual threat QBs.

 

And no, Cam didn't have a "bad" career. He had a so-so career. He had one year where he was truly an elite all around QB, but that was it. The other years his main threat was his legs and his passing game was mediocre. So far it's the same with Lamar.

 

Would I be against having Cam or Lamar on this team (Cam when he was around the same age as Lamar is now)? Of course not. Would I give either of them a record breaking fully guaranteed long term deal? No, because I don't think they're worth it given the kind of QBs they are and the history so far of running QBs. Also, I'd have to take into account Lamar's current injury concerns.

 

So again, stop misstating my position. I do like dual threat QBs. I don't like running QBs. And I've defined the difference I see between them many times now. So if we disagree on what a dual threat QB actually means, that's fine. But stop telling me I don't like dual threat QBs when I've explained how that's not the case.

[Skinsinparadise]

Rivera interviewed by Keim on his podcast.

 

He comes off genuinely enthused about Howell.  He in particular cited how hard he works in that building.  "he works all the time".  Actually it ironically reminds me a lot of what some said about Kirk back in the day.     He said players tell him the ball comes off different (in a good way) compared to the other QBs. 

 

Grant Paulsen said on his radio show recently that he heard that people in that building were very divided about whether Howell was really to play during the season -- not divided on him as a player but his readiness to start that season.  Hence he attributes that to the vacilliating about Howell starting. 

 

Sheehan among others likes to question how legitmately they were jazzed about Howell considering their reluctance to start him.  But I don't get that.  Seemed like the narraitve was they want him to excel when they gave him his first shot to keep his confidence high, plus right to almost the end they were in a playoff hunt so its a tough spot to shake things up with a rookie.

 

I'll repeat I think it was two different beat reporters who said it was Hurney who was the big Howell guy in that building. Hurney as Keim mentioned was big on Herbert before that draft and fancies himself as good at evaluating the QB spot.

 

If you go through our drafts, this isn't a stupid personnel evaluation team as far as scouting college players in spite of what some Ron critics like to push. 

 

They've done pretty good in real life terms in the draft -- not the fantasy version of it that some have which is every pick should be a hit or close enough.  As Kiper likes to say if you can pull three players you've done well in any draft. 

 

For those who act like they are walking morons on QB.  Then really every dude who has coached here since Gibbs 1st stint is a walking moron about QBs.  But IMO they are just like the typical FO -- the typical swing at a QB is miss especially when you are fishing through retreads. 

 

Swinging and missing at a journeyman QB to me isn't a big miss.  The odds are stacked against you.  IMO their work on QB looks to be riding for better or worse on Sam Howell.  If Sam ends up being the guy -- then Rivera basically did something no other coach has done here in 30 plus years -- that would be a great legacy -- granted its a big if.   But will see.

 

But I am sticking to the point that I am enthused that they are enthused about Howell.  The fact that Ryan Fitzpatrick got hurt in his first game and it ended up a career ender or Wentz struck out for the third time -- has zero influence on my thoughts about their thoughts about Howell.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I used Mahomes as an example of what I see as a true franchise dual threat QB. Same with Allen, Watson, Hurts, Wilson (though at this point Watson and Wilson are TBD). And no, I don't think Lamar is a dual threat QB, because to me dual threat implies a great passer first and a great runner second. Lamar is a great runner first and mediocre passer second. So to me that makes him more of a single threat QB. If you take away his running then he's not really going to scare anyone through the air as a pocket passer. The same can't be said for those other true dual threat QBs.

 

And no, Cam didn't have a "bad" career. He had a so-so career. He had one year where he was truly an elite all around QB, but that was it. The other years his main threat was his legs and his passing game was mediocre. So far it's the same with Lamar.

 

Would I be against having Cam or Lamar on this team (Cam when he was around the same age as Lamar is now)? Of course not. Would I give either of them a record breaking fully guaranteed long term deal? No, because I don't think they're worth it given the kind of QBs they are and the history so far of running QBs. Also, I'd have to take into account Lamar's current injury concerns.

 

So again, stop misstating my position. I do like dual threat QBs. I don't like running QBs. And I've defined the difference I see between them many times now. So if we disagree on what a dual threat QB actually means, that's fine. But stop telling me I don't like dual threat QBs when I've explained how that's not the case.

Cool, it’s solved, we both love dual threat QBs. I can “run” with that. 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Rivera interviewed by Keim on his podcast.

 

He comes off genuinely enthused about Howell.  He in particular cited how hard he works in that building.  "he works all the time".  Actually it ironically reminds me a lot of what some said about Kirk back in the day.     He said players tell him the ball comes off different (in a good way) compared to the other QBs. 

 

Grant Paulsen said on his radio show recently that he heard that people in that building were very divided about whether Howell was really to play during the season -- not divided on him as a player but his readiness to start that season.  Hence he attributes that to the vacilliating about Howell starting. 

 

Sheehan among others likes to question how legitmately they were jazzed about Howell considering their reluctance to start him.  But I don't get that.  Seemed like the narraitve was they want him to excel when they gave him his first shot to keep his confidence high, plus right to almost the end they were in a playoff hunt so its a tough spot to shake things up with a rookie.

 

I'll repeat I think it was two different beat reporters who said it was Hurney who was the big Howell guy in that building. Hurney as Keim mentioned was big on Herbert before that draft and fancies himself as good at evaluating the QB spot.

 

If you go through our drafts, this isn't a stupid personnel evaluation team as far as scouting college players in spite of what some Ron critics like to push. 

 

They've done pretty good in real life terms in the draft -- not the fantasy version of it that some have which is every pick should be a hit or close enough.  As Kiper likes to say if you can pull three players you've done well in any draft. 

 

For those who act like they are walking morons on QB.  Then really every dude who has coached here since Gibbs 1st stint is a walking moron about QBs.  But IMO they are just like the typical FO -- the typical swing at a QB is miss especially when you are fishing through retreads. 

 

Swinging and missing at a journeyman QB to me isn't a big miss.  The odds are stacked against you.  IMO their work on QB looks to be riding for better or worse on Sam Howell.  If Sam ends up being the guy -- then Rivera basically did something no other coach has done here in 30 plus years -- that would be a great legacy -- granted its a big if.   But will see.

 

But I am sticking to the point that I am enthused that they are enthused about Howell.  The fact that Ryan Fitzpatrick got hurt in his first game and it ended up a career ender or Wentz struck out for the third time -- has zero influence on my thoughts about their thoughts about Howell.

 

 

Coaches and FOs get unfairly punished by fans for the QB position.

 

I believe Ron and company got humbled and learned a great lesson relating to the overpriced veteran QB market. They probably thought to themselves, Wentz was no better than Fitzpatrick when he came in but required a ton more in resources to get. FOMO at the QB spot will put you in bad spots. Must wait for ideal circumstances, then pounce.

 

Excited to flip the script on the rest of the league and division and hopefully have an average Howell being paid peanuts for next 3 seasons, while the division is paying a premium for their QBs. Dak and Jones are average, Hurts looks like the real deal and a guy likely to be escape 70% average pool. 
 

20 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The fact though that this is even a debate and you are still arguing this shows it a waste of my time to debate you on certain subjects (not all) because you are going to believe what you want to believe it seems. 

 

There isn't a single other person except for you debating the validity of the story, not here, not on twitter, not on call radio, all venues where the topic has been discussed and vetted.

 

It was super simple and straightforward.  Jay talked about one first round pick, which was 2nd pick of the draft, in one of the podcasts he took it a step further but the step further stuff came off as speculation.  

 

Jay actually repeated that story in at least 3 different podcasts.  It was clear enough that other reporters talked about it on their own shows. 

 

If that wasn't enough and you wonder about Jay, its  a little weird you don't trust it in my book but what really makes it uber weird is that Mike Jones talked to the actual horses mouth about it and was super direct -- Kyle Shanahan and he confirmed the exact same story that a first was offered (and did so in real time not in retrospect) and you choose to flat out ignore that like it means nothing.   Jones didn't say though more than a first.

 

That part of this has been talked about on this thread and I've mentioned it to you plenty of times in the past.  But apparently its inconvenient for someone else on the other side of the story to back Jay's story and was clear as a bell about it.  So lets just ignore it like Jones never kicked in on the same story? 

 

Your thesis is referencing one of those podcasts where Jay speculated beyond the first round draft pick that if they negotiated that he thinks they could have gotten even more including one more number 1 and change.  You take that part of his conversation that they could have gotten even more to twist it to somehow that means they actually got offered nothing.  That's beyond pretzel logic to me. 

 

Since Jones said just the first, I'll stick to Jay thinking it could have been more as mere speculation.  But the first rounder is clear. So I am sticking to just the facts that's consistent from one story to the next.  

 

The same point applies to the arguments on Dan including your point that this is a destination spot.  You seem determined to not let up and "win" this as if we are in court and you got to stick to your side of the argument no matter what is presented. 

 

It’s not just been Jay, theres been mixed messages on the exact amount of compensation from a few sources, but truly, I’m not too hung up on it and okay if it’s 100% proven wrong—you feel you have proven a first round pick was offered, I get it. I disliked Kirk and certainly own bias and emotions tied to it, but really not all that serious, but has some value to this day to discuss. Lastly, I would love to hear from Bruce Allen some day, that would fascinating. 
 

For example,  this from a Niners best guy a few years ago in 2020 regarding compensation offered: 

 

https://www.ninersnation.com/platform/amp/2020/1/7/21054867/the-49ers-made-the-right-decision-trading-for-jimmy-g-not-kirk-cousins

Edited February 10, 2023 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

55 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Coaches and FOs get unfairly punished by fans for the QB position.

 

I believe Ron and company got humbled and learned a great lesson relating to the overpriced veteran QB market. They probably thought to themselves, Wentz was no better than Fitzpatrick when he came in but required a ton more in resources to get.

 

The method to the madness I think with Wentz was he was once a Ferrari, now he's treated as a 2010 beat up Ford Taurus.  We think can find the Ferrari in him again or close enough.  It was a gamble.  They were wrong.  But I understand the method to the madness.  The fact that they did that and Fitzpatrick (with hardly any injury history) got hurt in game 1 and his career was over -- so I agree it doesn't IMO make them untrustworthy on every QB decision going forward IMO that's silly.  

 

My issue with the Wentz trade was both the compensation and them eating the salary.  I was good with the Fitz signing.  I understood both moves.  But both were roll of the dices, the odds were against them on both and in both cases they didn't beat the odds. 

 

So yeah agree about FOs, not just here, being unfairly punished for basically taking chances at QB.  I want the FOs to keep taking chances albiet prefer them to be in the draft.   Fitz didn't cost much.  He was cheap and he was a FA.  Wentz unfortunately was expensive but at least they didn't extend him so they can cut bait so it wasn't uber risky because they had a quick exit ramp.  

 

The narrative at the time was they likely felt they had to overpay for him because Wentz left to his own devices would choose to play elsewhere.

 

As some who cover the team like to say they have to pay a tax for some players to come here.  Hopefully Dan sells and that narrative changes.  

 

 

55 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

It’s not just been Jay, theres been mixed messages on the exact amount of compensation from a few sources, but truly, I’m not too hung up on it and okay if it’s 100% proven wrong—you feel you have proven a first round pick was offered, I get it. I disliked Kirk and certainly own bias and emotions tied to it, but really not all that serious, but has some value to this day to discuss. Lastly, I would love to hear from Bruce Allen some day, that would fascinating. 
 

For example,  this from a Niners best guy a few years ago in 2020 regarding compensation offered: 

 

https://www.ninersnation.com/platform/amp/2020/1/7/21054867/the-49ers-made-the-right-decision-trading-for-jimmy-g-not-kirk-cousins

 

As I said, in all of Jays podcasts, the first rounder was the common thread, in some he was more clear about it then others. Jay in one podcast thinking he could get even more that seemed likely fantasy.  But forget Jay, the kicker for me was Mike Jones who talked to the other party Kyle Shanahan in real time when it was going on and he told him they offered the first.  But didn't say anything beyond the first.

 

Only reason why I care about it is this.  This team under Dan doesn't sell much but when they do they sell low.  The Eagles are so good at getting value for assets.  We don't seem to put much value on assets.

 

But like I've said in recent months, i am now glad it went exactly the way it did.   We wasted a first rounder and three third round picks, a ton of money to replace Kirk.  We had the rodeo merry go around at QB that's become a national media joke propoagated almost every time we get a rare national televised game.

 

We ended up with the lowest QBR in the league, dead bottom in QB play since Kirk left.  Our last hurrah as to being OK with attendance is that era.  Every season since its been mostly a steady decline in fan attendance, declining TV ratings, etc.    And now we are at the actual bottom -- lower than Jax which was the fanbase that the rest of the league typically uses as the punchline as the team with the fewest fans. 

 

Some here might be happy that Kirk is gone but i think even they will admit we did not get the last laugh.   Keep in mind this -- a draft pick a year later is devalued by one round.  So factoring that and how far back in the round a comp pick is.  they basically got the value of a high 5th rounder for Kirk.  it was so ridiculus than even Jay's brother, Jon mocked it in one of his own press conferences.  

 

It was a really pathetic effort from Bruce and Dan.  And they doubled down by basically repeating the same mistake with Trent because to them it seems ego and spite >>> higher draft picks/winning.  So in turn that transaction among others is the perfect llustration why we are watching the Eagles in another SB, whereas our version of the SB was a playoff win back in 2008.

 

But again, it was all for the best.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

15 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

As far as QB competition goes, the way Ron looks to be doing it IMO is perfect.  You give the young QB, the edge, but give him some competition, not serious competition but enough so he fights for it some.

 

So that means not a Derek Carr, not a Jimmy G.  But a dude like Keenum or Mariota or a dude like that is fine.  Also you don't want your backup QB to suck, you want a dude who can play some in a pinch.

I agree with level of competition, but I’d just go ahead and announce the dude as a starter when this level of QB acquired. 
 

If you’re having to play psychological games with your young QB, he’s not the dude anyways. I am

agreeing with you, just hope Ron doesn’t decide to go with an all out competition where reps are being split providing opportunities for veterans minds to go in different directions. 

 

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The method to the madness I think with Wentz was he was once a Ferrari, now he's treated as a 2010 beat up Ford Taurus.  We think can find the Ferrari in him again or close enough.  It was a gamble.  They were wrong.  But I understand the method to the madness.  The fact that they did that and Fitzpatrick (with hardly any injury history) got hurt in game 1 and his career was over -- so I agree it doesn't IMO make them untrustworthy on every QB decision going forward IMO that's silly.  

 

My issue with the Wentz trade was both the compensation and them eating the salary.  I was good with the Fitz signing.  I understood both moves.  But both were roll of the dices, the odds were against them on both and in both cases they didn't beat the odds. 

 

So yeah agree about FOs, not just here, being unfairly punished for basically taking chances at QB.  I want the FOs to keep taking chances albiet prefer them to be in the draft.   Fitz didn't cost much.  He was cheap and he was a FA.  Wentz unfortunately was expensive but at least they didn't extend him so they can cut bait so it wasn't uber risky because they had a quick exit ramp.  

 

The narrative at the time was they likely felt they had to overpay for him because Wentz left to his own devices would choose to play elsewhere.

 

As some who cover the team like to say they have to pay a tax for some players to come here.  Hopefully Dan sells and that narrative changes.  
 

 

100%, we are in lockstep here I believe in regards to keep shooting your shot. I was okay with the move as well and had fingers crossed oil was going to be struck lol 

 

The killer is tying up major money into these dudes, I’ll readily admit Wentz has fallen out of the 70% pool and the negative extreme of not being competent at this point in time, so his situation was extreme. 

 

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

As I said, in all of Jays podcasts, the first rounder was the common thread, in some he was more clear about it then others. Jay in one podcast thinking he could get even more that seemed likely fantasy.  But forget Jay, the kicker for me was Mike Jones who talked to the other party Kyle Shanahan in real time when it was going on and he told him they offered the first.  But didn't say anything beyond the first.

 

Only reason why I care about it is this.  This team under Dan doesn't sell much but when they do they sell low.  The Eagles are so good at getting value for assets.  We don't seem to put much value on assets.

 

But like I've said in recent months, i am now glad it went exactly the way it did.   We wasted a first rounder and three third round picks, a ton of money to replace Kirk.  We had the rodeo merry go around at QB that's become a national media joke propoagated almost every time we get a rare national televised game.

 

We ended up with the lowest QBR in the league, dead bottom in QB play since Kirk left.  Our last hurrah as to being OK with attendance is that era.  Every season since its been mostly a steady decline in fan attendance, declining TV ratings, etc.    And now we are at the actual bottom -- lower than Jax which was the fanbase that the rest of the league typically uses as the punchline as the team with the fewest fans. 

 

Some here might be happy that Kirk is gone but i think even they will admit we did not get the last laugh.   Keep in mind this -- a draft pick a year later is devalued by one round.  So factoring that and how far back in the round a comp pick is.  they basically got the value of a high 5th rounder for Kirk.  it was so ridiculus than even Jay's brother, Jon mocked it in one of his own press conferences.  
 

 

The only bit of conjecture and why I was on other side of the masses relating to Bruce was feeling the Kirk situation would’ve been a pain for any organization. Kirk is a mercenary and employed a capitalistic mindset whether right or wrong creating a huge division in the fan base that continues to live on in Minnesota.
 

Not just on field stuff, it’s the old romantic idea that the franchise QB works with their organization to create a partnership, Kirk is of the mindset I’m entitled to maximize my earning at every possible opportunity. He’s chosen that path and that will most likely be his legacy and what he’s most known for. 
 

Lastly, the compensation received must include a full season of Kirk Cousins which should’ve resulted in another playoff birth. 3rd round comp pick plus a season of what most on the board was top 7-10 QB play.
 

Very much see parallels between Carr and Cousins situation and why I’m fascinated to see the compensation Raiders receive. 

 

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It was a really pathetic effort from Bruce and Dan.  And they doubled down by basically repeating the same mistake with Trent because to them it seems ego and spite >>> higher draft picks/winning.  So in turn that transaction among others is the perfect llustration why we are watching the Eagles in another SB, whereas our version of the SB was a playoff win back in 2008.

 

But again, it was all for the best.  

 

If the Tunsil was available, it’s criminal they did t get that package.  
 
With that said, most fans and media didn’t think they could much more for him than what th he received. If Tunsil didn’t get dealt for that ridiculous package, most fans wouldn’t have cared as much about the compensation.
 

Williams stock was waaaay down with the local media and fans. I was in the trenches defending Williams as a supreme elite Hall of fame talent likely to play at a high level into his late 30s. Lol, I remember Galdi questioning whether he was top 10 tackle in the game (never been a Galdi guy, the analytics got the best of him). 

[Conn]

People were only resigned to the package we got for Trent because the situation had already been so pathetically fumbled. Handled correctly and traded earlier, people expected much better trade compensation. Nobody here was happy about how it was handled or what we ended up getting, it wasn’t just the Tunsil trade making people unhappy. 

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I agree with level of competition, but I’d just go ahead and announce the dude as a starter when this level of QB acquired. 
 

If you’re having to play psychological games with your young QB, he’s not the dude anyways. I am

agreeing with you, just hope Ron doesn’t decide to go with an all out competition where reps are being split providing opportunities for veterans minds to go in different directions. 

 

 

Ron sort of did announce Howell as the starter.   But wants to add a veteran.  I think that's fine.

 

40 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

100%, we are in lockstep here I believe in regards to keep shooting your shot. I was okay with the move as well and had fingers crossed oil was going to be struck lol 

 

The killer is tying up major money into these dudes, I’ll readily admit Wentz has fallen out of the 70% pool and the negative extreme of not being competent at this point in time, so his situation was extreme. 

 

 

 

I didn't like the picks or the money part of the deal.  But the risk wasn't crazy considering it was basically a 1 year contract.

 

40 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

The only bit of conjecture and why I was on other side of the masses relating to Bruce was feeling the Kirk situation would’ve been a pain for any organization. Kirk is a mercenary and employed a capitalistic mindset whether right or wrong creating a huge division in the fan base that continues to live on in Minnesota.
 

Not just on field stuff, it’s the old romantic idea that the franchise QB works with their organization to create a partnership, Kirk is of the mindset I’m entitled to maximize my earning at every possible opportunity. He’s chosen that path and that will most likely be his legacy and what he’s most known for. 
 

Lastly, the compensation received must include a full season of Kirk Cousins which should’ve resulted in another playoff birth. 3rd round comp pick plus a season of what most on the board was top 7-10 QB play.

 

Getting one more year out of Kirk and that has value brings me back in time -- I recall Finlay would say then that's what they hear they are thinking -- its a year to year league, 2 years from now is forever in their mind, one year at a time.  

 

That mindset IMO is one of the reasons why this team is stuck in the mud.  it's all about now.  Ron referred to Dan's lack of patience in his own introductory press conference.  If Dan Snyder had a bumper sticker, he should put that on it -- the future is now. 

 

As far as the rest of your point, I agree with some of it, disagree with most of it mainly because Bruce was polarizing in the actual negotiation where it wouldn't warrant some warm and fuzzy we are in this together vibe but even if I agreed with all of it -- so what IMO -- don't make decisions based on base emotions, get value for your assets.

 

40 minutes ago, wit33 said:

With that said, most fans and media didn’t think they could much more for him than what th he received. If Tunsil didn’t get dealt for that ridiculous package, most fans wouldn’t have cared as much about the compensation.

 

The ones who covered the story competed with two narratives -- some said they heard a first rounder, others said a 2nd and third rounder.  That's not big enough value than the third rounder they got?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

18 hours ago, KDawg said:

QB competitions don’t work when there is a rookie you want to invest in. Or a young guy you are trying to invest in. In order to get the most out of a young QB you want to fully support them. That means they are either your day one starter or you make it known the plan is to sit them for the foreseeable future. You can’t be half in on a young QB. That destroys their development.

 

QB competitions are great for teams with journeymen options, though.

My best bet is that they do just this with Howell, support him and surround him with talent. Ron's comments seem to support the notion that Howell was great in college with all of that NFL talent around him so it stands to reason he's got a good shot to be a good NFL QB if surrounded by talent. If they're truly interested in bringing back TH then that would also support that they're going all in on Howell.

[drowland]

I'm sure Ron genuinely likes Howell, and I'm cool giving Howell a shot since there's an ownership change coming and why not try it, but after listening to him sell Wentz last off-season I kinda laugh.  He comes across as a used car salesman.  What was it last year?  Something about using Gibbs' QB evaluation method and that pointed to Wentz being the long-term answer?  It was bizarre so I have to take Ron and his enthusiasm with a grain of salt.  

 

I think it's more them looking at what the Eagles have done twice now with QBs on rookie deals and thinking why can't we do that?  Howell seems capable so let's give it a shot and if we can make the playoffs with him, or even fall short with a winning record, we have something to sell to new ownership. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Very much see parallels between Carr and Cousins situation and why I’m fascinated to see the compensation Raiders receive. 

 

 

 

I see almost zero parallels.  Kirk was three years younger for starters.

 

Carr's last season was a career down year. I know you don't see it that way and expressed that its the same or close enough than the season before when he got the contract.   It's not a debate though.  It's simply not true. 

 

Carr has been hovering close to 70% completion rate for the previous 4 seasons -- the season before last he did that with throwing for almost 5000 yards.  He didn't come close to approaching that this past season, barely completed over 60% of his passes (heck that's worse than Heinicke) and his only worse season completion rate wise was his rookie season. 

 

So in short except for you everyone agrees that it was a down year for Carr and now he's coming at a rebound season at 32.  It's not like Kirk at 29 coming off a good year.

 

I like Carr.  But Kirk is the better QB IMO.  Carr though more clutch.  But what Carr gets right now, its not apples to apples to where Kirk was. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

I'm not bringing TH back under any circumstances simply because a segment of the fanbase has this insane fixation on him as some sort of savior.  I'd rather bring in a Keenum type as the backup.