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The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1


Koolblue13

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Graziano on Keims podcast thinks Washington or a team like them with good offensive pieces and strong defense would be desirable for Carr.  Albeit he also heard from multiple NFL people that Howell may have been the best of bunch taken last year.  They talked a bit about allocation of resources too like balancing the use of a cheaper QB to continue building the team.  We'll see.

 

 

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2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

What a tangled web we weave.

 

A cut Carr will be on the Commandos radar. Not that we can pay the guy... but he'll be on the radar. 

 

New Orleans?

 

Maybe Tampa?  I think if the ownership wasn't in flux, there would be a chance they chase Carr if he hit the market.  But with everything up in the air, I'd be surprised. 

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2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Cut a dude b4 he gets to play in a flag football game... That is a new one lol.

 

I'm in on Carr no matter how it happens.

-A trade lets you avoid a 100 Mil escrow payment and put it off until new ownership arrives.

-As a FA you don't gotta give up nothin, but you gotta have 100Mil available budget.

 


I’d think about giving up a couple Day 3 picks if the Raiders don’t have another option on the table and Carr is open to it

 

You could get Carr and make the space for Payne on a franchise tag by cutting Logan, Roullier and Fuller if you need to cut him

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On 2/3/2023 at 8:06 AM, FootballZombie said:

Cut a dude b4 he gets to play in a flag football game... That is a new one lol.

 

I'm in on Carr no matter how it happens.

-A trade lets you avoid a 100 Mil escrow payment and put it off until new ownership arrives.

-As a FA you don't gotta give up nothin, but you gotta have 100Mil available budget.

 


Fortunately the league mandate is all teams must spend at minimum 95% of the cap. 
 

Just say no to Carr. He will stall just enough drives, fail to capture just enough momentum, and fail in the red zone just enough for a segment of the fan base to blame the defense. How about,  Throw more TDs, run for more first downs, and achieve higher levels of consistency.

 

$18mil with some escalators, I’d be cool with signing him. My belief is Carr will get humbled if he enters the market. 

Edited by wit33
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Just a little nugget to add to our ongoing mentions of Carr fwiw. 🙂

 

Kyle Brandt of gmfb is in LV covering the probowl and described covering the qb practice round for their skills competition.

 

He said Cousins, Goff, and Geno did great amongst the group but said t

"The guy who stepped up and mowed down the entire field" (direct quote) was Carr.

 

He said Carr wasn't wearing any raiders gear though they were in the raiders facility and that his physique looked like he'd been doing nothing but working out big time. Said he looked "incredible" and that he hit every target in every challenge easily, like "snapping his fingers." 

 

He said when care finished he just tossed the ball to the judge and walked away. He said it was "amazing" and he'd "never seen Carr look better" and that it was "incredible" and that Carr was looking "pissed and determined and nailed every target like he could do it in his sleep." 

 

Like I said, a fun nugget fwiw.😉

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29 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Just a little nugget to add to our ongoing mentions of Carr fwiw. 🙂

 

Kyle Brandt of gmfb is in LV covering the probowl and described covering the qb practice round for their skills competition.

 

He said Cousins, Goff, and Geno did great amongst the group but said t

"The guy who stepped up and mowed down the entire field" (direct quote) was Carr.

 

He said Carr wasn't wearing any raiders gear though they were in the raiders facility and that his physique looked like he'd been doing nothing but working out big time. Said he looked "incredible" and that he hit every target in every challenge easily, like "snapping his fingers." 

 

He said when care finished he just tossed the ball to the judge and walked away. He said it was "amazing" and he'd "never seen Carr look better" and that it was "incredible" and that Carr was looking "pissed and determined and nailed every target like he could do it in his sleep." 

 

Like I said, a fun nugget fwiw.😉

 

Nothing beats for me at least to watch players play live.  What hit me while watching Carr is he had better wheels than i thought.  And that dude has a really strong arm, he can zip it.   Accuracy on the first level-ball handling was really good.

 

Some people gloss over that he's had a bottom rung defense every year. Or that he has had a bad O line for some of his career. Or play down his 33 game winning drives, which leads the league since he was drafted as fools gold.  

 

The narrative that Carr is just OK or isn't that good -- reminds me a lot about the Stafford hate when he was on the market.  I recall the rap here.  It was stuff like:  Yeah maybe his supporting cast wasn't hot.  But yet Stafford had good receivers.  And the Lions just don't win.  Stafford didn't elevate them.  We give Stafford all these excuses for why the Lions aren't a playoff team, etc.

 

I think Stafford is more talented but Carr is about half a peg below and IMO its a similar conversation.  Both QBs are slam dunk good Qbs IMO.  But aren't slam dunk great.  Good QBs need a good supporting cast to win.  But I don't condemn them for it.  We had a really good defense, good weapons, etc -- but still weren't good.  You change this outfit from having atrocious QB play to "good" QB play and I think we are going deep in the playoffs.

 

Do some here really think Carr can't go toe to toe with Daniel Jones or Geno Smith or heck even Dak Prescott?    He'd give us a fighting chance with the QB spot in the post season in the NFC.

 

Having said all that, I still wouldn't do it unless he's under 30 million.  And if they are truly sold on Howell, give that a ride and see where it goes.   But I'll defend Carr from the rap from some on this thread that he's just "meh".

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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53 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Just a little nugget to add to our ongoing mentions of Carr fwiw. 🙂

 

Kyle Brandt of gmfb is in LV covering the probowl and described covering the qb practice round for their skills competition.

 

He said Cousins, Goff, and Geno did great amongst the group but said t

"The guy who stepped up and mowed down the entire field" (direct quote) was Carr.

 

He said Carr wasn't wearing any raiders gear though they were in the raiders facility and that his physique looked like he'd been doing nothing but working out big time. Said he looked "incredible" and that he hit every target in every challenge easily, like "snapping his fingers." 

 

He said when care finished he just tossed the ball to the judge and walked away. He said it was "amazing" and he'd "never seen Carr look better" and that it was "incredible" and that Carr was looking "pissed and determined and nailed every target like he could do it in his sleep." 

 

Like I said, a fun nugget fwiw.😉


Carr has never been a bad player. I just don’t want him here because it’s not fair to him to have to compete with Sam “To the Moon” Howell.

 

Carr would probably feel overwhelmingly that he has to donate some of his pay to Sam for tolerating his presence.

 

But Carr is the only bigger name I’m even semi interested in.

 

Aside from Shane Buechele, of course.

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:


Carr has never been a bad player. I just don’t want him here because it’s not fair to him to have to compete with Sam “To the Moon” Howell.

 

Carr would probably feel overwhelmingly that he has to donate some of his pay to Sam for tolerating his presence.

 

But Carr is the only bigger name I’m even semi interested in.

 

Aside from Shane Buechele, of course.

 

Assuming this team drafts, Haener.  I assume they indeed will draft him considering I gather this thread is a key tool to the team's scouting department and draft approach.

 

It woud be two Fresno State QBs here.  And i bet that could become a bit catty. 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nothing beats for me at least to watch players play live.  What hit me while watching Carr is he had better wheels than i thought.  And that dude has a really strong arm, he can zip it.   Accuracy on the first level-ball handling was really good.

 

Some people gloss over that he's had a bottom rung defense every year. Or that he has had a bad O line for some of his career. Or play down his 33 game winning drives, which leads the league since he was drafted as fools gold.  

 

The narrative that Carr is just OK or isn't that good -- reminds me a lot about the Stafford hate when he was on the market.  I recall the rap here.  It was stuff like:  Yeah maybe his supporting cast wasn't hot.  But yet Stafford had good receivers.  And the Lions just don't win.  Stafford didn't elevate them.  We give Stafford all these excuses for why the Lions aren't a playoff team, etc.

 

I think Stafford is more talented but Carr is about half a peg below and IMO its a similar conversation.  Both QBs are slam dunk good Qbs IMO.  But aren't slam dunk great.  Good QBs need a good supporting cast to win.  But I don't condemn them for it.  We had a really good defense, good weapons, etc -- but still weren't good.  You change this outfit from having atrocious QB play to "good" QB play and I think we are going deep in the playoffs.

 

Do some here really think Carr can't go toe to toe with Daniel Jones or Geno Smith or heck even Dak Prescott?    He'd give us a fighting chance with the QB spot in the post season in the NFC.

 

Having said all that, I still wouldn't do it unless he's under 30 million.  And if they are truly sold on Howell, give that a ride and see where it goes.   But I'll defend Carr from the rap from some on this thread that he's just "meh".

 

 

 

 

 


I actually disagree. I think Carr is better than Stafford. I think Stafford is a franchise level QB but pretty low rung. But I like Goff just as much as Stafford. Though I think I have Goff and Carr rated similarly.

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34 minutes ago, KDawg said:


I actually disagree. I think Carr is better than Stafford. I think Stafford is a franchise level QB but pretty low rung. But I like Goff just as much as Stafford. Though I think I have Goff and Carr rated similarly.

 

Goff had a career year but if this is his new trajectory he's on a good path.

 

Stafford and Carr are in the same category IMO.  The advantage Stafford has is he's better off platform than Carr. 

 

Some here have compared Carr to Wentz which IMO is silly.  But the two IMO have one of the same weakness which is the way to beat them is collapse the pocket in the A gap -- they both seem to get flustered by it.   And Carr isn't Stafford IMO when you flush him out of the pocket and he needs to make a play off platform on the move.  I'd give Stafford a nod too in the red zone.  Carr doesn't stink in the red zone but he's not hot in the red zone either.  For those reasons, i think Carr is a good Qb not a great QB.

 

Stafford IMO's accuracy can be a bit inconsistent and makes his share of mistakes.

 

I'd take either QB -- assuming Stafford is healthy again?

 

I get those who say Carr at 40 million isn't worth it.  I agree.  But in that Wentz salary range 28 million or so i think he's a good get.

 

But I don't think I'd chase him here. 

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Having said all that, I still wouldn't do it unless he's under 30 million. 

I mean, the numbers are irrelevant in NFL space . So you would at 29 but not at 31? QBs are a unique community. Should we care at the cost. The cap is a complete myth. You either want Derek Carr or you don’t.

 

I would. And I find it almost incomprehensible that any fan wouldn’t want him here.

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No Carr.  
 

Just sign some lower tier vet to compete with Sam for the job.  You don’t make any long term qb decisions until the new owners are in place.

 

If Carr is still available and the new owners want to pursue him, fine.

 

You don’t make such a move under Dan.

Edited by 88Comrade2000
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Also, you really think any qb of Merritt, who has a choice; would come anywhere near us? You are dreaming.

 

Here’s what going to happen.

 

Aaron Rodgers will be first up. If Aaron doesn’t retire and wants out; teams will then pursue him.

 

Once the Aaron question is answered, Carr will be next up.  

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2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I mean, the numbers are irrelevant in NFL space . So you would at 29 but not at 31? QBs are a unique community. Should we care at the cost. The cap is a complete myth. You either want Derek Carr or you don’t.

 

I would. And I find it almost incomprehensible that any fan wouldn’t want him here.

 

I think I've been if anything the lead dog pushing Carr for two years and defending him to his many naysayers on this thread.  So I've more than earned my Carr stripes here. ;)   But to say its "incomprehensible" not to lock him down including at a sizeable chunk of the cap takes it too far for me.

 

As for the 29 million versus 31, lol, OK, you know what I mean as far as price range.  

 

My point is are we riding with Howell or already throwing in the towel?  Carr wouldn't be a 1-2 year rental.  It would be us saying Carr is the guy and Howell is not.  And the coaching staff would know better than me about that.  If the scuttlebutt about what this FO thinks of Howell is pure BS and instead they think he's at best just a guy, then ok move on.   But we don't know that.

 

IMO its a myth that the cap is a complete myth.     It's an issue of maxing out the credit cards now and worrying about the debt later.    

 

And I know from previous debates, you think its false that Dan has cash flow problems.  It's on point as to the cap considering cash flow is a big part of playing the defer things to later game.  Not sure if your position has changed?   But even if it hasn't changed why would he pay big money for a QB on the way out of his ownership?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/sports/football/NFL-salary-cap-chiefs-buccaneers.html

 

The cap is in fact very real...

 

The Brady and Mahomes situations illustrate that salary cap alchemy typically boils down to compensating the superstar quarterback first, then fitting the rest of the budget around him. With a relatively affordable Brady in the fold, the Buccaneers could extend one-year offers to Brown, Gronkowski and Suh, veterans willing to sign for less than their market value to join forces with Brady and pursue a championship.

 

Similarly, important role players like Sammy Watkins and Bashaud Breeland, who re-signed with the Chiefs, and Le’Veon Bell, who signed as a free agent, were given one-year contracts made possible because Mahomes is being paid in tomorrow bucks. The appeal of a likely Super Bowl run couldn’t have hurt, either.

Even the cleverest cap model can backfire if a team cannot use success to sustain success. The Saints used reverse mortgage “die broke” tactics to pay Drew Brees through many years of Super Bowl near misses. With Brees’s retirement imminent, the

 

Saints are so deep in deferred cap debt (an estimated $112 million) that they may be forced to pad their 2021 roster with season-ticket holders....

 

After the Super Bowl, a long list of in-house free agents (including starters like Lavonte David, Shaquil Barrett and Chris Godwin, plus the aforementioned mercenaries) will be vying for the Buccaneers’ very limited cap space while Brady, who turns 44 in August, prepares to once again plays chess with his own mortality. Even with all of their finagling, the Chiefs will enter the off-season an estimated $18 million over the cap, meaning that next season’s Chiefs probably won’t be as good as this season’s Chiefs.

 

Both teams in this Super Bowl needed to get there to justify their efforts to stay one step ahead of the collection agency.

There is much more to “salary cap-enomics” than finding innovative ways to squeeze a Mahomes or a Brady into a budget — from extending in-house contracts before valued veterans reach free agency to avoiding spending sprees at positions like running back, where talent is plentiful and replaceable. Mostly, however, there’s no mystery to cap management, just the question of whether a team chooses to pay for its Super Bowl run today, tomorrow or by tacking almost a half-billion dollars onto the back end. Age and deferred debt eventually catch up to everyone. Even Tom Brady. Someday. Probably.

 

 

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I just can’t believe people want to make a long term commitment at qb under the current regime.

 

Owner Dan. GM/ Coach- Ron.

 

The owner is on his way out.  The coach/Gm is desperate to be coach beyond 23.

 

Ron has failed miserably in 3 years at the qb position and now you want him to make a long term decision before the new owner takes over?

 

The earliest the new owner can take over in 3/26- 1st day of owners meetings. That is 11 days after free agency.  So, by then the big qb deals/trades/signings etc.  will have happened.

 

I don’t want Ron doing any big qb move until his new employer is there.  So for now just go stopgap, a low tier vet to compete with Sam.

 

Once the new owner is in and they want to do something big and there are options still available then, then fine.

 

 

Don’t do what the Broncos did.  The coach hire and trade for Russell happened well before the new owners took over.  They became owners in August 22 and in September 22 Russ signed the extension. That extension probably already in the works, so they just rubber stamped it.  They are stuck with qb on the decline for another year. 
 

 

 

We don’t want to saddle the new regime with any more long term mistakes.

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Personally, I am 100% OK with Ron making a QB decision.  If Ron is a failure at QB then so is EVERY coach we've had since the first Gibbs stint.

 

Getting the QB spot right, is the advanced calculus course of personnel -- most fail, especially in a short stint.  But stay at it until you got it right.

 

Sticking to the point about QB in the context of Rivera, if he got Howell right, then he would be the greatest coach we've had since Gibbs 1 specifically as to the QB spot ironically.   Maybe we could argue Shanny for Kirk.  But the RG3 trade cost a fortune in draft capital. 

 

Ron throwing the dice on veterans who aren't in demand past their prime, isn't really rolling the dice.  That's just taking whatever is left available -- and hope that your leftovers end up surprisingly good.

 

Ultimately Rivera's legacy sink or swim will likely be ironically about Howell.   If Howell succeeds, no one is going to give a rats behind that Fitz got hurt in game 1 two years ago or whatever.  

 

As for Carr, I got no issue with Ron making the call.  My issue with it is its admitting defeat already on Howell.   I get the impression that even if Dan stayed they want to try to keep the roster intact and try the cheap QB route like the Eagles are doing.  This would abandon that ship.  

 

When they traded for Wentz, they had to shed salary after that.  Scherff gone.  Flowers gone.  Landon gone.  If Dan is still our owner, a move for Carr would likely bring consequences to the rest of this roster.  As Sheehan among others have said, cash flow is an issue for Dan -- right down to why they waited until the summer to sign Terry so Dan can hold on to his cash.  If we go for this rodeo round 2, this time with Carr, Payne is likely gone, and it will be just cheap bargain bin FAs, with some veteran losses along the way.    

 

And that's if Dan returns.  If Dan is on his way out, why the heck is he going to put 60 million or whatever it ends up being for Carr in an escrow account?  He'd have zero motivation to do that.  But will see.

 

I've put up enough for give or take 2 years now selling Carr and pushing him.  So if they surprisingly chase him, I wouldn't hate it.  But if they genuinely like Howell why not give him a chance?  

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Isn't it possible given that Del Rio was the head coach of the Raiders and Carr was his QB, that he is already lobbying for Carr to be here?  I think Carr is solid and would excel with the weapons we have on O, but I would be disappointed, because I thought it would be great to go with Howell, work on somehow fortifying the O line, and a few other areas NOT tying up a ton of cash in another vet QB.  I just see this as a transition year, and why not get some pieces in place without making a big splash in FA for yet another vet QB.

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As long as they aint wheeln' and dealin' draft picks from future years I don't care what this administration does at QB or beyond, even if they are lame duck. They are here to put as good a product on the field as possible. If they see a pathway to success on that front, take it. That is the whole point. If it works, they won't be a lame duck anymore.

 

Pay a guy, trade for a guy, whatever, do what ya gotta do. Its not the current administrations job to plan for the next administration and limit themselves in every way possible to hedge their own failure. If that's the game-plan they should hang it up before the season even starts b/c they sure aint here to try and succeed.

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I think Carr gets released. He would then have a choice where he signs. He would not be interested in this team in it's current iteration. Besides that, Dan would not sign off on that kind of contract either. IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My issue with it is its admitting defeat already on Howell. 

 

I don't see that at all.

 

No NFL team just hands a starting gig at the start of the offseason to a QB in Howells position. 1 game of XP and low investment asset.

Whenever players like that get the oppo to be the week 1 starter it is almost always after some combination of:

 

-A team has tried to upgrade in the off-season

-Put the young player in a QB comp

-Injuries in preseason forced the issue

-Young player named starter near end of pre-season

 

 

There are jobs on the line every year. Looking to lock down the QB sport or looking to pair Howell with good vet competition is not a slight against Howell in any way. Its just how the NFL operates.

 

The Russ Wilson's, Trevor Siemeon's and Dak's of the world all went thru this narrative. It would be wildly out of the norm to see this club sit on its hands and just do nothing to prevent Howell from being QB1, even if broke they will still likely make all the moves in their power to prevent this occurrence, and that is not Sam's fault in the slightest. Nature of the beast.

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