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The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1


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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Zappe was drafted by the Patriots last year. 

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that he was a guy who was a low ceiling high floor guy who was compared to Heinicke who analysts were saying could be a good backup but doesn't have the arm strength to be a consistent starter. I liked his film and I may look at some more film in the coming months up to the draft but i don't know the prospects after the big names for this year but I'd look for somebody like that (not necessarily with the arm stregth limitations but the high floor guys late). 

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46 minutes ago, KDawg said:


I don’t get the logic. Assuming a guy is cooked because of his draft selection is stupid. Why even have rounds after the first then?

 

 

I get talking about it in the abstract.  But once you have the player in house its no longer abstract.  Like Mike Shanahan said once (paraphrasing him), the QB spot is a bit of a wildcard -- you know who these QBs are when you have them in house.  You can see how they can digest the playbook, protections, opposing defenses and how hard they work.  He said when they took Kirk in the 4th within a week he knew he was no ordinary 4th rounder and knew he can play.

 

Some act like Rivera and the team have no clue about QBs because they swung and missed as if they blew something simple that most others get right without much sweat.  But the reality is there isn't some franchise QB store that teams just pull QBs from and the odds are with you that can pull it off with ease.  Most blow it.   And that's OK.  Keep trying. 

 

Gibbs by most accounts is an offensive legend yet fell in love with the play of Jason Campbell when on a scouting session.  And had no interest in Aaron Rodgers supposedly.  Beathard loved Ryan Leaf.   John Schneider who some say is the best Gm in the league paid a ton for Matt Flynn and thought he was the dude.  The Eagles who now are lionzied as a team that gets hardly anything wrong, got plenty wrong until they hit on Hurts.

 

My point is if they are excited about Howell's progress in practice and saw that translate to the Dallas game than i am excited that they are excited.  I am no expert to say the least and even I can tell watching Haskins (RIP) in camp that his accuracy was atrocious.   He was a first round pick but so what?

 

My issue with Sheehan and those that purport the same point is they act that those that have some faith that it could work out are naive because the odds are it won't.  I agree to the extent that the odds are against any young QB.    But it seems lazy logic to me.  For Howell it wasn't just about one game.  It would be about how hard he works behind the scenes.  How he looks in practice.  Heck even his college tape is relevant.  It's the whole package. 

 

It's the same thing I say about any of these QB sceanrios.  One veteran Qb doesn't equal to the next veteran.  Every trade isn't equal to a past trade.  In the same way every young QB in name that round doesn't equal to name another past QB from the same round.  It's all different variables.  Judge each IMO as its own entity. 

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27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Same here. I wouldn't want Richardson though. I'd want another guy like Zappe who is a guy who is projected to go low but has the makings of a good backup with a ceiling. 

 

I don't know how low he's going to go but I'd guess 4th-5th.   McShay says it might be earlier, hope he's wrong.  He's been my favorite flier type QB for 2 years running. 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't agree with drafting a QB every year. That's kind of overdoing it. Now if you clearly miss a guy, and have a chance at a stud the next year, you go for it(i.e. Cardinals drafting Murray after busting on Rosen). Otherwise, when you draft a guy you wanna commit to him and build around him and at least give him a couple years to figure it out, unless its OBVIOUS he just stinks(like we should have seen with Haskins, and draft Tua or Herbert at #2 overall in 2020).

 

I do think every year is overkill. I'd be for something like every 2-3 years. Honestly that's kinda what we've been doing. My problem is that we've been more active in the free agency and trade route than I would like. With the every couple of years strategy you have a QB to start, a QB to backup/develop and as the starter comes up for a new contract either they're re-signed or they're let go and the younger guy takes over. I wouldn't hand it to anybody but I'd bring in a Keenum/Foles/Dalton type to compete for the starter. While I have supported the players like Wentz, Smith, McNabb, Brunell, I wasn't a fan of the trades when they happened cause I thought all were mediocre type guys and we'd be giving up too much to get to the same level that a young QB with potential could get us to. 

 

33 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Sheehan is a fan like us. And like many of us, he chooses strange hills to die on.

Nah, Sheehan is a gambler who likes to play the odds. He has a radio show and tries to guess what is going to excite fans. In that way, he's similar to the Junkies. But at least the Junkies are honest and will tell you they're not real fans and they're just doing a segment as a filler because its the boring season. Sheehan acts like he knows somebody connected to everything but is wrong just about as often as he's right. My question that I'm waiting for is how is he going to respond to Howell. He is not pro starting Howell, but will he be a fan if Howell does well next year. Or if he puts up Heinicke numbers will he be calling for his head? Is he going to go anti-Howell like he did Wentz? I'm just interested in seeing how this plays out. 

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25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get talking about it in the abstract.  But once you have the player in house its no longer abstract.  Like Mike Shanahan said once (paraphrasing him), the QB spot is a bit of a wildcard -- you know who these QBs are when you have them in house.  You can see how they can digest the playbook, protections, opposing defenses and how hard they work.  He said when they took Kirk in the 4th within a week he knew he was no ordinary 4th rounder and knew he can play.

 

Some act like Rivera and the team have no clue about QBs because they swung and missed as if they blew something simple that most others get right without much sweat.  But the reality is there isn't some franchise QB store that teams just pull QBs from and the odds are with you that can pull it off with ease.  Most blow it.   And that's OK.  Keep trying. 

 

Gibbs by most accounts is an offensive legend yet fell in love with the play of Jason Campbell when on a scouting session.  And had no interest in Aaron Rodgers supposedly.  Beathard loved Ryan Leaf.   John Schneider who some say is the best Gm in the league paid a ton for Matt Flynn and thought he was the dude.  The Eagles who now are lionzied as a team that gets hardly anything wrong, got plenty wrong until they hit on Hurts.

 

My point is if they are excited about Howell's progress in practice and saw that translate to the Dallas game than i am excited that they are excited.  I am no expert to say the least and even I can tell watching Haskins (RIP) in camp that his accuracy was atrocious.   He was a first round pick but so what?

 

My issue with Sheehan and those that purport the same point is they act that those that have some faith that it could work out are naive because the odds are it won't.  I agree to the extent that the odds are against any young QB.    But it seems lazy logic to me.  For Howell it wasn't just about one game.  It would be about how hard he works behind the scenes.  How he looks in practice.  Heck even his college tape is relevant.  It's the whole package. 

 

It's the same thing I say about any of these QB sceanrios.  One veteran Qb doesn't equal to the next veteran.  Every trade isn't equal to a past trade.  In the same way every young QB in name that round doesn't equal to name another past QB from the same round.  It's all different variables.  Judge each IMO as its own entity. 

While I agree somewhat, and understand your point in bold here, I think you're missing a major detail as to why a lot of people doubt Ron and his crew's ability when it comes to getting a QB:

 

Ron and Co. traded valuable assets and cap space for a guy who was a veteran with 6 years worth of PRO film on him.  And that "chosen one", whom Ron said he had zero questions about and wanted to build around for the long term was a spectacular failure here.  Not only that, but he produced exactly what the overwhelming majority of the NFL community said he would, which was very, very little.   They all clearly saw what Ron and Co. missed.  That's extremely worrisome.  

 

That's a huge difference vs. drafting an unknown rookie QB that only has college ball tape to evaluate.  I get that when drafting a rookie, it's damn hard to get right.  If Ron and Co. had done this and that rookie didn't work out, I'd have doubts about the guys evaluating, but still understand that it's a bit of a crapshoot, and so, I'd give then another shot to get it right.  But that's not what happened.  All information on Wentz at the Pro level was there for our braintrust to evaluate, and they failed spectacularly, exactly as most of the rest of the NFL community predicted.  

 

So, I can understand those that have gravely serious doubts about this regime's ability to evaluate the QB position.  Personally, I don't want this braintrust doing anything at that position other than seeing how Howell does this year as Starter 1.  I don't trust them otherwise, and I certainly don't want the new owners hamstrung by some high pick QB rookie that was drafted by a bunch of guys who won't be here long term.  

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48 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Same here. I wouldn't want Richardson though. I'd want another guy like Zappe who is a guy who is projected to go low but has the makings of a good backup with a ceiling. 

 

 

As for the next tier my guy would be hands down Haener.

 

And I haven't really watched the next group much.

 

But from what I've watched, if I had to go deeper in the draft QB wise, guessing 6th roundish.  Clayton Tune.  Good size.  Put up big numbers.  I talked about him this past weekend on the draft thread, he got my attention when watching a WR and was impressed how Tune basically got beaten to a pulp by the pass rush in that game but keep on swinging.  At a minimum he's tough.  And has decent and underrated wheels IMO.  

 

Some like Duggan and Hall.  Who will also be at the Senior Bowl.   I got to watch those two.

 

I am not married to PFF numbers but there are some categories that I dig more than others and one of those is QB's performance under pressure and Tune has a much better rating on that front than Duggan and Hall.  But I haven't really studied either Hall or Duggan.  But did watch Duggan during the season.

 

The Senior Bowl is often a good gauge to seperate the more marginal QB prospects for better or worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't want Ron Rivera of all people, drafting another QB in what could likely be his final season as HC.  If that happens, then the incoming coach and front office could potentially be stuck with two young QB's on the roster they have to inherit and figure out what to do with (assuming neither is a franchise QB caliber player).   I also am not turning the page on Howell yet since we haven't really seen much from him at all besides the Dallas game.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Redwards said:

While I agree somewhat, and understand your point in bold here, I think you're missing a major detail as to why a lot of people doubt Ron and his crew's ability when it comes to getting a QB:

 

Snyder and Co. traded valuable assets and cap space for a guy who was a veteran with 6 years worth of PRO film on him.  And that "chosen one", whom Ron said he had zero questions about and wanted to build around for the long term was a spectacular failure here.  Not only that, but he produced exactly what the overwhelming majority of the NFL community said he would, which was very, very little.   They all clearly saw what Ron and Co. missed.  That's extremely worrisome.  

 

That's a huge difference vs. drafting an unknown rookie QB that only has college ball tape to evaluate.  I get that when drafting a rookie, it's damn hard to get right.  If Ron and Co. had done this and that rookie didn't work out, I'd have doubts about the guys evaluating, but still understand that it's a bit of a crapshoot, and so, I'd give then another shot to get it right.  But that's not what happened.  All information on Wentz at the Pro level was there for our braintrust to evaluate, and they failed spectacularly, exactly as most of the rest of the NFL community predicted.  

 

So, I can understand those that have gravely serious doubts about this regime's ability to evaluate the QB position.  Personally, I don't want this braintrust doing anything at that position other than seeing how Howell does this year as Starter 1.  I don't trust them otherwise, and I certainly don't want the new owners hamstrung by some high pick QB rookie that was drafted by a bunch of guys who won't be here long term.  

 

Fixed a part of your post for you. Bolded and underlined. 

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2 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Kevin Sheehan declared this morning on his radio show that Sam Howell is not the long term answer at quarterback.

He says Commanders need to draft a quarterback in the first or second round.  He mentioned Dak was drafted in 4th round

but as he looks around the league historically you are not going to find a franchise quarterback in the lower rounds.

He says just keep drafting quarterbacks each year until you hit on one.  The problem with that strategy is that each year

that you miss that means you could have drafted another player who would have helped the team such as an offensive lineman,

linebacker, etc.  Ron and company have proven they cannot evaluate quarterbacks so I prefer to go with Howell and draft some better players.

 

There is no problem with that strategy. It's the most important position on the field...by far.

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2 hours ago, Redwards said:

While I agree somewhat, and understand your point in bold here, I think you're missing a major detail as to why a lot of people doubt Ron and his crew's ability when it comes to getting a QB:

 

Ron and Co. traded valuable assets and cap space for a guy who was a veteran with 6 years worth of PRO film on him.  And that "chosen one", whom Ron said he had zero questions about and wanted to build around for the long term was a spectacular failure here.  Not only that, but he produced exactly what the overwhelming majority of the NFL community said he would, which was very, very little.   They all clearly saw what Ron and Co. missed.  That's extremely worrisome.  

 

That's a huge difference vs. drafting an unknown rookie QB that only has college ball tape to evaluate.  I get that when drafting a rookie, it's damn hard to get right.  If Ron and Co. had done this and that rookie didn't work out, I'd have doubts about the guys evaluating, but still understand that it's a bit of a crapshoot, and so, I'd give then another shot to get it right.  But that's not what happened.  All information on Wentz at the Pro level was there for our braintrust to evaluate, and they failed spectacularly, exactly as most of the rest of the NFL community predicted.  

 

So, I can understand those that have gravely serious doubts about this regime's ability to evaluate the QB position.  Personally, I don't want this braintrust doing anything at that position other than seeing how Howell does this year as Starter 1.  I don't trust them otherwise, and I certainly don't want the new owners hamstrung by some high pick QB rookie that was drafted by a bunch of guys who won't be here long term.  

 

While it was far from my top desire and according to Keim it was not their top QB desire either this past off season, rolling the dice on Wentz IMO wasn't crazy.  High upside, former elite player and who was at least OK in his last season in Indy.  I wasn't a fan of the deal because of the compensation.  And the compensation smells like Dan.  And because of Dan they have to overpay and for that matter their options are limited. 

 

It doesn't matter to me that the national media hated Wentz.  The national media loved the Haskins pick (RIP) and they were wrong.  They loved Sam Darnold and celebrated that deal to the Panthers (comments from scouts celebrated that deal, too) and they were wrong.  Law of averages on QBs, sometimes your deals will be celebrated, sometimes your deals will be panned.  But personally I don't care about that. 

 

I seriously doubt Ron thought it was that slam dunk considering they never restructured his contract.  As Standig among others liked to say, them keeping the contract as is showed that they are rolling the dice and they know it might not work and this would give them an easy exit if so. 

 

I don't really see any QB move as a deal breaker for any FO.  Heck according to Keim, Hurney pounded the table for Herbert before that draft.  And supposedly its Hurney behind the scenes that's the biggest proponent for Howell in that building.  If its all about past is prologue maybe that's a good omen.

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31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

apparently so

 

 

 

Yes. But he had a bad senior year (which is a laughably awful statement in and of itself) and he went from being a top 5 to 5th round and now he’s DOOOOOOOOMED

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6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Yes. But he had a bad senior year (which is a laughably awful statement in and of itself) and he went from being a top 5 to 5th round and now he’s DOOOOOOOOMED

 

If he pans out to a real franchise quarterback, he needs to send you a signed jersey.  You were calling this since he was picked.

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12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Yes. But he had a bad senior year (which is a laughably awful statement in and of itself) and he went from being a top 5 to 5th round and now he’s DOOOOOOOOMED

 

If he went mid first like Chrisian Ponder, or Haskins or late first like Jason Campbell...

 

Even if he went early 2nd like Drew Lock, EJ Manual or Paxton Lynch did...

 

Howell would have a chance.  But 5th round?  it's over.   Howell should just hang it up, doesn't he know what round he was taken in?  is there even a point to him trying this?  😀

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5 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

If he pans out to a real franchise quarterback, he needs to send you a signed jersey.  You were calling this since he was picked.

 

Two years before he was picked! :ols:

 

I don't know if he's franchise. I had him back half of the first round graded (my highest QB, thought QB class was weak).

 

Said Pickett had a chance but only because he landed in the absolute best spot.

 

Otherwise I didn't like the class.

 

But if he turns out to even be a good QB I consider it a win :)

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There’s no point in drafting a qb. Just sign a low tier vet to compete with Sam.

23 is just about seeing if Sam can win the job and show you enough in 23 to

build around him.  Any long term qb decisions will be left with the likely new regime in 24.  If San can win the job and show enough in 23; he’s got a leg up in 24 with the new regime,

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With an 18 game season, and possibly a suspect O-Line, folks need to consider decent depth at QB, should Howell falter or get injured.

 

I don't think Fromm is the answer for QB -3, much less QB-2 (who I'd hope would be some reasonably contracted FA QB who could help mentor Howell.)

 

Is Washington going to put all their eggs in one basket, and hope Howell is the answer?  Or are they willing to tank the 2023 season, if they have to rely on some backup QB-2 or Fromm?  Maybe that's the plan -- that's why this off-season is so interesting.  (Maybe there's an unearthed gem of a QB who drops to the 4th or 5th round again?)

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42 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

There’s no point in drafting a qb. Just sign a low tier vet to compete with Sam.

23 is just about seeing if Sam can win the job and show you enough in 23 to

build around him.  Any long term qb decisions will be left with the likely new regime in 24.  If San can win the job and show enough in 23; he’s got a leg up in 24 with the new regime,

Didn't Purdy have a lot of interest in his early college years too?  Marino was the 6th QB taken and no.27 pick after being on cover Sports illistrated and should have been considered for 1st pick if not for a espn article about him and drugs.  Things can change quickly.

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6 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

With an 18 game season, and possibly a suspect O-Line, folks need to consider decent depth at QB, should Howell falter or get injured.

 

I don't think Fromm is the answer for QB -3, much less QB-2 (who I'd hope would be some reasonably contracted FA QB who could help mentor Howell.)

 

Is Washington going to put all their eggs in one basket, and hope Howell is the answer?  Or are they willing to tank the 2023 season, if they have to rely on some backup QB-2 or Fromm?  Maybe that's the plan -- that's why this off-season is so interesting.  (Maybe there's an unearthed gem of a QB who drops to the 4th or 5th round again?)

2nd tier QB will be just fine with me. Just do not overpay in free agency again. But I also would try to keep someone who is already here too.  

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2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Two years before he was picked! :ols:

 

I don't know if he's franchise. I had him back half of the first round graded (my highest QB, thought QB class was weak).

 

Said Pickett had a chance but only because he landed in the absolute best spot.

 

Otherwise I didn't like the class.

 

But if he turns out to even be a good QB I consider it a win :)

 

That's right, sorry I only skim the draft threads because I don't know WTF I'm talking about even more.

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I don't think I like this option, and I've brought it up before, but I am getting more and more intrigued by the prospect of bringing in Baker Mayfield to compete with Howell ONLY if he passes the attitude test and is willing to compete for the job. Mayfield is a former #1 overall pick who showed flashes in LA after being released by two teams in 2022 and is still only 27 years old. This is a dude who's been knocked down pretty good and SHOULD be open to earning a starting QB job and I doubt any team will offer him their starting gig. I am not QB smart enough to know how good he is compared to what we have but if he's better, and would come at a reasonable cost, how many chances do you get at a former #1 overall pick who is still young and has shown flashes? 

Clearly Cleveland wanted to move on from him for a reason but Mayfield may just have been humbled. If I'm RR, and I want a guy who can come in and compete, I need to have a one on one with Baker Mayfield and would be talking to his former coaches. Again, totally dependent on where his head is on whether I kick the tires on him on a team friendly prove it contract. Mayfield could just be the perfect dysfunctional QB for this dysfunctional organization where two wrongs make a right?

For his career Mayfield has thrown for 102 TD's vs 64 ints with an 86.5 QB rating in 5 seasons including 2020 where he threw for 26 TD's vs 8 picks with a QB rating of 96.0.

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