The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1

[Est.1974]

My God we so need a saviour at QB to save ourselves from this. 

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Nope, don't even slightly agree.

 

I see WAAAAY too many make that insane jump of "Are you really comparing (fill in the blank) to (much better player)" all the time, to the point that I started adding disclaimers to some of my posts, saying things like "And, no, you chuckleheads lol...I am not comparing the two". I understood exactly what he was commenting on when I read his "turnover worthy" post. And I understand exactly why some here interpreted it the wrong way and are hellbent on insisting their interpretation is the right one.

 

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

I agree with Califan. The commentator said oh that was almost intercepted.. The first thing came to my mind was all the talk about the almost INTs Taylor throws and how people think he is the only QB in the NFL who does that - at lease that is what it looks like when you read these post about it on that subject. I understand that Taylor is not given a lot of passing plays so the few he does have has has to be perfect or else we have this need to tear it apart lol 

 

Even the elite QBs make bad throws every game and these QBs have super-duper arms to boot. There were even couple of throws Allen made down the field that were almost intercepted and were also very inaccurate.This reminded of an article I read while back about QBs with a strong arm. 

 

 

Okay back to almost INTs. I wanted to come here and say the same thing but knew it would be taken out of context for obvious reasons. I won't add any disclamiers and I shouldn't have to. I come here to discuss on how I see it. I have no problem comparing a play or a pass or whatever that I see someone else do it or does it better or not. In my book that is not saying they are them. You can always find a QB that has a similar playing style or throws. It should never be taken out of context. No one should be saying Taylor IS Tom Brady lol which no one is and probably won't be. But we can all hope to get someone like a Tom Brady - a franchise QB that is really good who can be part of the team for years to come and get us some SB rings too. 

 

The search continues.... enjoy or not the moxie ride until then.

 

Hey Cali,

 

The other post I quoted here shows why people make those posts. To attempt to prove a point that Taylor Heinicke makes the same mistakes as the high end quarterbacks such as Josh Allen.

 

I didn’t misinterpret a thing. He posted that intentionally.

 

My point, however, is that a quarterback like Josh Allen doing it and a quarterback like Heinicke doing it are two entirely different animals.

 

Let me explain:

 

Allen has a NFL Rocket, NFL speed, NFL running ability and every physical trait you can ask for. Allen has high end NFL production. When Josh Allen makes a turnover worthy play it’s still a bad play. That doesn’t change. He has some bad habits he needs to get out of. But he also makes up for it in performance time and time again. And shockingly, he’s also a guy with a ton of moxie. He just has the NFL traits to go along with it.

 

Heinicke has much less room for error. He doesn’t have the arm, physical traits and he refuses to use his legs. He has moxie. He has guys that love playing with him. But if Josh Allen js the bar for the gunslinger in the NFL, Heinicke is the floor. He can’t afford to make the same mistakes Allen can because he doesn’t have the NFL arm to throw himself out of trouble on an individual play or in a game. He has to have things go a certain way to make things happen.

 

It’s clear what his intent was. The whole, “Aw shucks! I wasn’t doing that, how could you think that” act was just that. 
 

It’s so over the top and transparent that it’s exhausting.

[SkinsFTW]

I mean, I see your point, but it's not like Allen has not already blown multiple games this year by throwing dumb picks.

 

Heine has done it once too. Probably would have at least twice if he'd started all year, but it's not like Allen is immune to the effects of his dumb decisions.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Hey Cali,

 

The other post I quoted here shows why people make those posts. To attempt to prove a point that Taylor Heinicke makes the same mistakes as the high end quarterbacks such as Josh Allen.

 

I didn’t misinterpret a thing. He posted that intentionally.

 

 

Try it the other way around...to show high end QBs make the same mistakes as Heinicke. So maybe those mistakes aren't the tell-all sign some make it out to be.

 

Real life example: on Twitter a few years back, when Haskins was starting, he missed a wide open WR in the end zone from like the 15 yard line...overthrew him a bit. Chris What's-his-ass (the beat writer, can't remember his last name at the moment lol) said--paraphrasing--"You can't miss that type of throw and expect to be a quarterback in the NFL." I responded to him with a gif of Tom Brady attempting to make the exact same throw to a guy who was even more open...and overthrowing him. His response? (again paraphrasing) "You can't seriously be comparing Haskins to Tom Brady." My response? "I wasn't. But you also can't take one missed throw and pretend that it's an indicator of how well a QB can succeed."

 

Granted, I probably was more verbose than that lol...but it was such an insanely lazy take from him. Put another way, imagine this scenario:

 

Fan 1: "Heinicke's completion percentage last year was better than any of Wentz's completion percentages over the last 3 years. Wentz's is around 60%, he needs to improve to 65% if he wants to be a franchise QB."

Fan 2: "Elway had a completion percentage around 60% as well. But Wentz does need to improve his %."

Fan 1: "Are you seriously comparing Wentz to Elway? Give me a break."

 

Honestly...would you really believe Fan 2 was saying since Wentz had a completion percentage similar to Elway, that means he's as good as Elway?...Or would you think that he was saying completion % was not the ultra-important metric that determines a QB's success, considering that successful QBs have had completion percentages all over the map? I know which one I'd be thinking.

 

Again...I think it's an issue to the point that I have to include disclaimers in my posts heading off the expected responses before they're even typed. It's similar to the "I'm not a hive member, but..." disclaimers. The fact that some felt the need to add those to their posts told me that the "hive" label was being used too much and in too a lazy fashion.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Try it the other way around...to show high end QBs make the same mistakes as Heinicke. So maybe those mistakes aren't the tell-all sign some make it out to be.

 

Real life example: on Twitter a few years back, when Haskins was starting, he missed a wide open WR in the end zone from like the 15 yard line...overthrew him a bit. Chris What's-his-ass (the beat writer, can't remember his last name at the moment lol) said--paraphrasing--"You can't miss that type of throw and expect to be a quarterback in the NFL." I responded to him with a gif of Tom Brady attempting to make the exact same throw to a guy who was even more open...and overthrowing him. His response? (again paraphrasing) "You can't seriously be comparing Haskins to Tom Brady." My response? "I wasn't. But you also can't take one missed throw and pretend that it's an indicator of how well a QB can succeed."

 

Granted, I probably was more verbose than that lol...but it was such an insanely lazy take from him. Put another way, imagine this scenario:

 

Fan 1: "Heinicke's completion percentage last year was better than any of Wentz's completion percentages over the last 3 years. Wentz's is around 60%, he needs to improve to 65% if he wants to be a franchise QB."

Fan 2: "Elway had a completion percentage around 60% as well. But Wentz does need to improve his %."

Fan 1: "Are you seriously comparing Wentz to Elway? Give me a break."

 

Honestly...would you really believe Fan 2 was saying since Wentz had a completion percentage similar to Elway, that means he's as good as Elway?...Or would you think that he was saying completion % was not the ultra-important metric that determines a QB's success, considering that successful QBs have had completion percentages all over the map? I know which one I'd be thinking.

 

Again...I think it's an issue to the point that I have to include disclaimers in my posts heading off the expected responses before they're even typed. It's similar to the "I'm not a hive member, but..." disclaimers. The fact that some felt the need to add those to their posts told me that the "hive" label was being used too much and in too a lazy fashion.

 

I don't think you read my post.

 

Insinuating that Josh Allen making the same mistakes as Heinicke is equal is asinine. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

I don't think you read my post.

 

Insinuating that Josh Allen making the same mistakes as Heinicke is equal is asinine. 

 

So Allen does NOT throw INT-worthy passes? Is that your answer? Because that's what you literally just said.

[KDawg]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

So Allen does NOT throw INT-worthy passes? Is that your answer? Because that's what you literally just said.

 

That's not what I said. Read it again.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

That's not what I said. Read it again.

 

You mean this? "Insinuating that Josh Allen making the same mistakes as Heinicke is equal is asinine."

 

What was the Heinicke mistake that was being discussed again? INT-worthy passes. Did anyone claim the mistakes held equal weight? No.

 

Feel free to clear that up.

[KDawg]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

You mean this? "Insinuating that Josh Allen making the same mistakes as Heinicke is equal is asinine."

 

What was the Heinicke mistake that was being discussed again? INT-worthy passes. Did anyone claim the mistakes held equal weight? No.

 

Feel free to clear that up.

 

Yes, they meant that the mistakes held equal weight. It's now cleared up. 

 

Otherwise, there is no point to bringing it up.

Edited December 2, 2022 by KDawg

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yes, they meant that the mistakes held equal weight. It's now cleared up. 

 

Otherwise, there is no point to bringing it up.

 

Nope. They even said he wasn't indicating it. And also said why he brought it up. You just choose not to believe him.

[KDawg]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Nope. They even said he wasn't indicating it. And also said why he brought it up. You just choose not to believe him.

 

Absolutely correct that I choose not to believe him. There is absolutely no point in bringing it up unless you feel otherwise.

 

Hey, Tom Brady made a few turnover worthy plays, too. See? Heinicke isn't the only one who makes mistakes.

 

Same with Brett Favre. He may have made more? See? Heinicke isn't so bad.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

Absolutely correct that I choose not to believe him. There is absolutely no point in bringing it up unless you feel otherwise.

 

Hey, Tom Brady made a few turnover worthy plays, too. See? Heinicke isn't the only one who makes mistakes.

 

Same with Brett Favre. He may have made more? See? Heinicke isn't so bad.

 

Wow, you got like all of it wrong lol...

 

His comments weren't about the plays of the different QBs nor trying to dismiss Heinicke's INT-worthy plays. It was a comment about the fans on this thread. He wasn't making an argument in favor of Heinicke. He was making an argument against fans. Like I said, he even spelled it out for you:

 

"I was just mocking this whole obsession with TH's "turnover worthy" throw nonsense."

 

In response, at least two different people basically said "Nope, you're lying" and I guess have now plugged their ears.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Wow, you got like all of it wrong lol...

 

His comments weren't about the plays of the different QBs nor trying to dismiss Heinicke's INT-worthy plays. It was a comment about the fans on this thread. He wasn't making an argument in favor of Heinicke. He was making an argument against fans. Like I said, he even spelled it out for you:

 

"I was just mocking this whole obsession with TH's "turnover worthy" throw nonsense."

 

In response, at least two different people basically said "Nope, you're lying" and I guess have now plugged their ears.

 

I simply don't believe him. He is one of the biggest TH guys on this forum. 

 

My ears aren't plugged, I'm just not going to believe his intent was anything other than kicking the hornet's nest. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I simply don't believe him. He is one of the biggest TH guys on this forum. 

 

My ears aren't plugged, I'm just not going to believe his intent was anything other than kicking the hornet's nest. 

 

 

Ok, full disclosure: I have no idea how big of a Heinicke fan he is lol...so if he is as you said, I can better understand your reluctance to believe him and your initial take on his post. Doesn't mean you're right, but at least I have context. I tend to just read posts as they are written--most times I don't even bother seeing who wrote them when I start responding. Hell, right now I don't even remember the dude's name lol. But I read his initial post exactly the way he later said he meant it...that can't be a coincidence. And as for me, I don't think arm strength is the antidote to throwing INTs, I think making better decisions is.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Ok, full disclosure: I have no idea how big of a Heinicke fan he is lol...so if he is as you said, I can better understand your reluctance to believe him and your initial take on his post. Doesn't mean you're right, but at least I have context. I tend to just read posts as they are written--most times I don't even bother seeing who wrote them when I start responding. Hell, right now I don't even remember the dude's name lol. But I read his initial post exactly the way he later said he meant it...that can't be a coincidence. And as for me, I don't think arm strength is the antidote to throwing INTs, I think making better decisions is.

 

This is good to read because I don't think arm strength is the sole antidote for throwing INTs, either.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

This is good to read because I don't think arm strength is the sole antidote for throwing INTs, either.

 

This is a slippery slope, you know that right? lol...

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

This is a slippery slope, you know that right? lol...

 

It is. But it isn't.

 

Arm strength doesn't solve the INT problems, but it eliminates a few cases where a quarterback (Heinicke in this instance) overestimates his arm strength and underthrows the ball. Or he doesn't get the timing right on a comeback and the DB can jump it. Late throws can be saved with more zip. Late throws can't be saved if you don't have the arm strength. That doesn't nullify decision making as an important attribute. Nor does it nullify time to decision being an important factor. Processing time is an underrated and under talked about QB trait. 

 

To be clear, Heinicke does a lot well as a QB. Decision making is improving but not there yet. He processes things a bit slower at times and at times believes in his arm more than he should.

 

Allen can process just as slow, for example, but his arm saves him from MORE turnover worthy passes than he already has. Allen and Heinicke DO share a common trait, though. They are gunslingers who want to get the ball to their best players.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It is. But it isn't.

 

Arm strength doesn't solve the INT problems, but it eliminates a few cases where a quarterback (Heinicke in this instance) overestimates his arm strength and underthrows the ball. Or he doesn't get the timing right on a comeback and the DB can jump it. Late throws can be saved with more zip. Late throws can't be saved if you don't have the arm strength. That doesn't nullify decision making as an important attribute. Nor does it nullify time to decision being an important factor. Processing time is an underrated and under talked about QB trait. 

 

To be clear, Heinicke does a lot well as a QB. Decision making is improving but not there yet. He processes things a bit slower at times and at times believes in his arm more than he should.

 

Allen can process just as slow, for example, but his arm saves him from MORE turnover worthy passes than he already has. Allen and Heinicke DO share a common trait, though. They are gunslingers who want to get the ball to their best players.

 

 

 

 

Actually it's not overruled lol...pretty much agree with you on all of it.

 

Only thing I might diverge on is if Heinicke's decision making can improve to the point that it's one of the things that make his INT-worthy throws less of a concern. Haven't put much thought into whether or not it can, just that there are a multitude of things that a QB can do to negate those INT-worthy throws (and even reduce them, of course).

 

By the way, the processing speed thing was one of the things I was prepared to respond to you with--and for the reason you said--so when I saw you mention it I thought well ****, maybe it's not as slippery a slope as I thought lol...

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

 

 

Actually it's not overruled lol...pretty much agree with you on all of it.

 

Only thing I might diverge on is if Heinicke's decision making can improve to the point that it's one of the things that make his INT-worthy throws less of a concern. Haven't put much thought into whether or not it can, just that there are a multitude of things that a QB can do to negate those INT-worthy throws (and even reduce them, of course).

 

By the way, the processing speed thing was one of the things I was prepared to respond to you with--and for the reason you said--so when I saw you mention it I thought well ****, maybe it's not as slippery a slope as I thought lol...

 

I think it can. But then I think you also lose the miracle passes to McLaurin/Samuels,etc. And if you lose those you lose essentially the entire downfield game from Heinicke.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think it can. But then I think you also lose the miracle passes to McLaurin/Samuels,etc. And if you lose those you lose essentially the entire downfield game from Heinicke.

 

The McLaurin pass I think you'd still get--dude was wide open and it was the right call for him to make. Pass was like a yard short, I don't expect Heinicke or any QB to think "Oh, if he was just a yard closer"...the Samuel pass, yeah, that's gone lol. But it gets replaced by him throwing it to--was it McLaurin?--who was wiiiiiiide open around like the 20 yd line and was the correct read.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

No one is ignoring the fact that the roster has evolved this year and that we are only winning games because of heineke, no one is saying that and if they are please direct me to where those posts exist.

Cool post, bro.  You’re not ignoring the numerous posts I referred to yet your entire next paragraph again ignores all that stuff.  You again go rambling about sacks without factoring the interior OL of the last six weeks or the fact that running it 40 times a game has major impacts on the amount of sacks one can take.  One from shear opportunities, the other changing how the opposing defense attacks.

 

Beyond that, nowhere have I called for Carson to start or made any bold proclamations that if he does, the results will be great.  It’s entirely possible he’s cooked and no gameplan or strategy can save him.  My only point is that I understand why folks are intrigued with seeing him again.  That apparently triggers you.

 

I’m certain you hated Jumbo’s post because it’s basically a scathing critique of you, without calling you out by name.  But the shoe fits…

 

8 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

 

Also, please stop setting up future hypotheticals so you can claim you were right in the future. You were wildly wrong on Heineke being a viable starter that could win games with any NFL team after the last few games last year, take the loss and move on

It was only a few days ago when I called you out for this wack behavior of yours where you like to play a shrink on this forum, and here we go again.

 

There is nothing special about my projection to hang my hat on. It is inevitable that if Heinicke heads back to the bench that you will whine and mope and what if all offseason, call for Riveras head, etc.

 

I still don’t think Heinicke is a viable starter and there is a variety of information that supports that.  Such as the fact that when this season is over, this team will look to find a viable starter as opposed to attempt to run this strategy back another time and no other team will give him the opportunity to start.  Put that in your projection pipe and smoke it.

 

The only projection that matters is that NeverSurrender dude is going to be jonesing to thumbs down this post.  😭

Edited December 2, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

I mean, I see your point, but it's not like Allen has not already blown multiple games this year by throwing dumb picks.

 

Heine has done it once too. Probably would have at least twice if he'd started all year, but it's not like Allen is immune to the effects of his dumb decisions.

And how many games would the Bills win without the other side of Josh Allen - the elite throws and runs?  
 

The entire point is it’s beyond dumb to compare to Josh Allen unless you take on the whole comparison.  Both Heinicke and Josh Allen, and every QB for that matter make bad decisions at times.  But both Heinicke and Josh Allen don’t make big play after big play, both by arm and by foot, over the course of multiple seasons.

[Skinsinparadise]

Josh Allen size, arm, mobility puts him in another dimension from Taylor.  the obvious comparison to me for Taylor's style including size, arm strength, decision making, etc is Colt McCoy, they are like twins IMO.  McCoy also a good backup IMO.

 

 

[CjSuAvE22]

Have we entered make believe lala land in this thread? How does so much of our fanbase not see we look like a high school offense with Heinicke, granted he runs it well but cmon we cant compare an afc runner up qbs mistakes to heinicke s mistakes. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by CjSuAvE22

[Califan007 The Constipated]

29 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Have we entered make believe lala land in this thread? How does so much of our fanbase not see we look like a high school offense with Heinicke, granted he runs it well but cmon we cant compare an afc runner up qbs mistakes to heinicke s mistakes.