Captain Wiggles Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 1 hour ago, FootballZombie said: Is Chase gonna be on another pitch count or is he full tilt? Should be full go. Wasn't he only on the pitch count for the first half of the 49ers game tho? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) What would the trade values for Payne and Sweat be? I think they are looking at a 2nd + Day 3 pick each for both with a chance at a 1st for Payne Edited January 2 by method man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, method man said: What would the trade values for Payne and Sweat be? I think they are looking at a 2nd + Day 3 pick each for both with a chance at a 1st for Payne I don't know but I DO know they should explore it. They won't, however, because it's the smart and prudent thing to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I could see a team offering a 1st for Payne. He's just entering his prime as he's very young for a 5 year vet and is coming off 10+ sacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Trading off/letting walk all of our good OLs for crap returns is how we turned one of the best lines in the NFL into the dog**** line we're currently fielding. By all means, let's do the same to the DL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, Going Commando said: Trading off/letting walk all of our good OLs for crap returns is how we turned one of the best lines in the NFL into the dog**** line we're currently fielding. By all means, let's do the same to the DL. Yeah I'd rather keep em all. I don't buy the notion that "you can't pay everyone in the same position." I'm not in the business of letting good players walk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, Warhead36 said: Yeah I'd rather keep em all. I don't buy the notion that "you can't pay everyone in the same position." I'm not in the business of letting good players walk. Agreed. You pay to keep your good players and you let your JAGs walk, no matter the position. The 49ers and Chargers have rosters with about 15 All Pros on them, obviously you can keep a bunch of good draft picks in house when you manage to get em. The only legit good players we have on this team are Allen, Chase, McLaurin, Payne, Curl, and Sweat. And none of them are even great players who can reset markets. We should be able to afford six good player contracts, especially when we don't have a QB worth paying anything for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) You trade them because you will acquire draft assets for them. Draft assets make it much, much easier for an intelligent FO to move up into a favorable draft position so that they can then acquire a real, red-blooded blue chip QB prospect. What have these great players on defense gotten us over the last three years? Seriously. We're no better off now than when Ron took over. Why? We have no QB. No QB = a definite zero chance at a perennial contender. It really isn't that complicated. But...if some people wanna hold onto some players that haven't helped us win zilch vs. putting ourselves in a much more favorable position to actually give ourselves a real chance at the true endgame, then... Edited January 2 by Redwards 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Redwards said: You trade them because you will acquire draft assets for them. Draft assets make it much, much easier for an intelligent FO to move up into a favorable draft position so that they can then acquire a real, red-blooded blue chip QB prospect. What have these great players on defense gotten us over the last three years? Seriously. We're no better off now than when Ron took over. Why? We have no QB. No QB = a definite zero chance at a perennial contender. It really isn't that complicated. But...if some people wanna hold onto some players that haven't helped us win zilch vs. putting ourselves in a much more favorable position to actually give ourselves a real chance at the true endgame, then... But if you trade someone like Payne for example, you're just gonna have to invest resources into filling that hole anyway. Yeah if you can use them to trade up for a QB, and you hit on said QB, that's the dream. But what are the odds of that? Do you want to risk tearing up whatever positives you have built chasing a unicorn? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Redwards said: Seriously. We're no better off now than when Ron took over. Why? We have no QB. Nah we're better off now than we were in 2018 or 2019. Old players like Adrian Petersen n Alex Smith, even before the injury, had zero chances of success going forward. Same goes for garbage free agents like Paul Richardson or Josh Norman. Riveras made plenty of mistakes but the roster is better overall now than it was in 2019. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 45 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Yeah I'd rather keep em all. I don't buy the notion that "you can't pay everyone in the same position." I'm not in the business of letting good players walk. Same. We should try to keep a strength a strength. Acquiring draft picks doesn’t promise anything. Our day one picks generally disappoint anyway. We should ask for a handful for 3-5 round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 43 minutes ago, Redwards said: You trade them because you will acquire draft assets for them. Draft assets make it much, much easier for an intelligent FO to move up into a favorable draft position so that they can then acquire a real, red-blooded blue chip QB prospect. What have these great players on defense gotten us over the last three years? Seriously. We're no better off now than when Ron took over. Why? We have no QB. No QB = a definite zero chance at a perennial contender. It really isn't that complicated. But...if some people wanna hold onto some players that haven't helped us win zilch vs. putting ourselves in a much more favorable position to actually give ourselves a real chance at the true endgame, then... What's an example of a good team that built their success upon gutting their roster to pile up draft picks to then trade up in the draft for a QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I posed the question but my preference is not to trade Payne away. I would look into moving Sweat however. He is a good player someone will pay like an elite player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 14 hours ago, Warhead36 said: But if you trade someone like Payne for example, you're just gonna have to invest resources into filling that hole anyway. Yeah if you can use them to trade up for a QB, and you hit on said QB, that's the dream. But what are the odds of that? Do you want to risk tearing up whatever positives you have built chasing a unicorn? Yes. I do. Because on the field, it ALL starts with the QB. Again...if you have no QB, you have nothing. This team has been built with the narrowest margins for success: assemble the team first and then insert a QB. The odds of that panning out are very, very small. I want this next ownership to set ALL SIGHTS on the QB first. Let me ask you once again: what has having this vaunted D line got us over the last three years? Are we any better? Any closer to contention? Hell no. 14 hours ago, Captain Wiggles said: Nah we're better off now than we were in 2018 or 2019. Old players like Adrian Petersen n Alex Smith, even before the injury, had zero chances of success going forward. Same goes for garbage free agents like Paul Richardson or Josh Norman. Riveras made plenty of mistakes but the roster is better overall now than it was in 2019. Roster. OK. How has that better roster made us a better team? All that matters is the end result. And the results are exactly the same as the past three years. Now EVERY media outlet that covers this team is admitting that very thing : That we're no better than three years ago. We still can't start the season prepared, so we get in a gaping hole. We win very contested contests against bad teams (or need out of the ordinary turnover games in our favor to beat a good team like the Eagles) in the middle of the year and then fade to finish the year. The Giants have a lesser roster than us and have punched their ticket with a first year GM and HC. So, again...how are we better? It's a results-based business. And the results are clearly not there. The players and their individual makeup matter not one iota in the current times because the results are no better. I may have much better furniture in my house then, say, two years ago. But if the house is a shack, I still live in a shack. Edited January 2 by Redwards 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderInTheRye Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Can we still franchise Payne, if we need to, or did we lose that option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 14 hours ago, Going Commando said: What's an example of a good team that built their success upon gutting their roster to pile up draft picks to then trade up in the draft for a QB? When your team is built backwards like ours, you have little chance at success. We have no QB. We need to start looking for one if we're ever to get out of this rut. We need an elite guy. That means the draft. And because Ron's build this team wrong, that transition is going to be MUCH more painful. Our best players will now be much older (or not here) by the time we finally get our QB. That's on Ron. And it's something I called him out on two years ago. There's a reason you start with the QB and build around him. Doesn't always work, so you then start again, like most teams do. But it is a much wider pathway to success than trying to build your team and then finally draft a QB that's a blue chipper AND hang on to all your current best players while that QB develops. Contracts come due, players get frustrated with having to wait more years to get the young guy up to speed. Again, this was a problem EASILY foreseeable when Ron stated how he wanted to go about building the team. It's a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 13 minutes ago, Redwards said: When your team is built backwards like ours, you have little chance at success. We have no QB. We need to start looking for one if we're ever to get out of this rut. We need an elite guy. That means the draft. And because Ron's build this team wrong, that transition is going to be MUCH more painful. Our best players will now be much older (or not here) by the time we finally get our QB. That's on Ron. And it's something I called him out on two years ago. There's a reason you start with the QB and build around him. Doesn't always work, so you then start again, like most teams do. But it is a much wider pathway to success than trying to build your team and then finally draft a QB that's a blue chipper AND hang on to all your current best players while that QB develops. Contracts come due, players get frustrated with having to wait more years to get the young guy up to speed. Again, this was a problem EASILY foreseeable when Ron stated how he wanted to go about building the team. It's a disaster. Should we trade Terry, Dotson and Samuels for draft capital? Can't pay them all. Samuels has a contract coming up, maybe we could get a 4rth. See how dumb that sounds? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 30 minutes ago, Redwards said: We have no QB. We need to start looking for one if we're ever to get out of this rut. This franchise has been doing that for almost 40 years. That's one of the main reasons they always start the season looking unprepared ending up in that "gaping hole". 🤷♂️ Think of all the wasted capital on all those ****ty quarterbacks. If they'd just stick to trying to draft then develop a decent quarterback instead of signing or trading for other teams overvalued garbage maybe they could get out of this rut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmandoug1 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: This franchise has been doing that for almost 40 years. That's one of the main reasons they always start the season looking unprepared ending up in that "gaping hole". 🤷♂️ Think of all the wasted capital on all those ****ty quarterbacks. If they'd just stick to trying to draft then develop a decent quarterback instead of signing or trading for other teams overvalued garbage maybe they could get out of this rut. Hindsight is 20/20, but I was against the Young pick. We had an aging Smith, crappy Haskins, and Allen a Panther retread. We went for the glamor/BPA pick. Should have taken a QB in roundnone or at least moved back for more picks. Not quite a RGIII screw up.....but close enough IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, tmandoug1 said: Hindsight is 20/20, but I was against the Young pick. We had an aging Smith, crappy Haskins, and Allen a Panther retread. We went for the glamor/BPA pick. Should have taken a QB in roundnone or at least moved back for more picks. Not quite a RGIII screw up.....but close enough IMO. So we'd have an injury prone Tua instead. Meh. I like Tua. He's one of the first qbs Alabama had in a long time that was legit nfl caliber. He can't stay healthy tho. Don't even mention Herbert to me at that #2 pick. That's some hindsight is 20/20 **** more so than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said: Should we trade Terry, Dotson and Samuels for draft capital? Can't pay them all. Samuels has a contract coming up, maybe we could get a 4rth. See how dumb that sounds? You can certainly take a good look at your players and then make a calculated decision on who you absolutely want to keep and then who you'd like to keep but are willing to trade for draft capital, like a Montez Sweat or Payne for instance. Doesn't mean it won't open up holes. That is, unfortunately, inevitable. But those holes are a million times easier to fill with quality than at the QB position. You have to be willing to take a step or two back in order to give yourself a legit chance at taking a leap forwards. Dumb? Not at all. Teams do it all the time. Now, there's no guarantee it'll work, but the odds are certainly more in your favor than what Ron has done to this team. But here we are, in the thick of Ron's failed plan with some good players that fans have gotten attached to, making it more of a personal situation than a business one. It's inevitable that we've reached this point because the way Ron wanted to build this team made it inevitable. You want a legit shot at a franchise QB that can set this team up for a decade or more of success or do you want to keep a lot of good players and people who we can continue to fall short with? If you have no QB you have no real chance other than a fluke year. Ron built things backwards, now we have to reverse course a bit. It's painful, no doubt, but that's Ron's fault. 42 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: This franchise has been doing that for almost 40 years. That's one of the main reasons they always start the season looking unprepared ending up in that "gaping hole". 🤷♂️ Think of all the wasted capital on all those ****ty quarterbacks. If they'd just stick to trying to draft then develop a decent quarterback instead of signing or trading for other teams overvalued garbage maybe they could get out of this rut. Edited January 2 by Redwards 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zim489 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Im not high on this defense. I think they are top half. I think they are built wholly incorrectly with modern football. Coverage is becoming far more important. Paying all 4 would be a massive mistake. I don't think they should even pay 3 of them at this point. Tag and Trade/Let Payne walk. Trade Sweat. Use the money on the back 7 and offense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, Zim489 said: Im not high on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Letting Payne go would be a mistake. Sweat should be the odd man out. So after the Nationals won the WS the talk was how can they sign all these key players. Can't sign Rendon, Stras, Max, Soto, ect. So what'd they do? Traded Soto n let everyone walk but Stras? Now they're a garbage team up for sale. 🤣 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zim489 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Theres people who think its a top 5-10 defense. I dont think its anywhere close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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