All things defense

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, Stone Cold said:

Would love to use one of our top 2 picks on a second level game wrecker.  Really like the kid from Arkansas who seems to be physically gifted and was raised by a coach.  Adding Chase Young and a freak at LB would make our young secondary look awfully good.  
 

I initially thought we may be able to get the kid with our 2 but if he shows in the combine like I think he will, he’ll settle into the 1st around where we pick.  
 

id take him with our mid first then do what we can to stack picks to build ol depth

I'm against spending any high picks on the defense until the offense can score more than 25 points a game.  Every pick should be spent on OL or TEs, or a QB. 

 

This is a SLIGHT exaggeration, but if you told me they had 6 picks in next years draft, drafted 2 QBs and 4 OL, I wouldn't be mad.  They have to get younger and better on the OL, and they have to upgrade at QB.

 

Until they do that, I don't want to spend any significant resources on QB.

[Stone Cold]

43 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm against spending any high picks on the defense until the offense can score more than 25 points a game.  Every pick should be spent on OL or TEs, or a QB. 

 

This is a SLIGHT exaggeration, but if you told me they had 6 picks in next years draft, drafted 2 QBs and 4 OL, I wouldn't be mad.  They have to get younger and better on the OL, and they have to upgrade at QB.

 

Until they do that, I don't want to spend any significant resources on QB.

We’re ol depth and credible qb play away on offense.  I wouldn’t dismiss our talent based on what 4 does running the offense.  We can get ol talent thru the mid late rounds, udfa and fa.  What we can’t do is get a game wrecker to add to a budding top tier defense cheaply unless we draft one.  I’m looking impact from a player drafted in round 1.  Someone that can come in day 1 and make a difference.  A linebacker with no pressure to carry a defense but see ball chase ball would cement us as a perennial top 5 defense.  A chess piece for JDR to utilize all over in an aggressive manner.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Stone Cold

[skinny21]

IMV, the pressing needs on defense are LB, followed by corner and DT (somewhat depends on Payne though).  Slightly longer term - DE and slot corner.  Maybe safety.

Pressing needs on offense - qb obviously, and oline (especially a center, but guard and tackle too).  Slightly longer term - wr (Curtis is a FA after next year) and rb (I believe Gibson and JDM are FAs after next year too?).

 

Looking at the guard spot, there’s some hope for Paul developing, and I think there’s potential for Cosmi to become a high end player there, but 1) he gets injured a lot and 2) Schweitzer’s a FA (as is Turner).

[Dark Acre]

On 12/5/2022 at 1:34 PM, Dark Acre said:

Big Daddy did give Washington one of its most exciting pick 6's ever.

It's at the 1:50 mark, but watch all the highlights. (I broke the link to avoid being arrested for copyright violation)  Man, 1999 was an exciting year until the end.  Check out who provides the crucial block for Big Daddy.

www.youtube.com/ watch?v=-OB9lQciLfM

Edited December 7, 2022 by Dark Acre

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:24 PM, Stone Cold said:

We’re ol depth and credible qb play away on offense.

Agreed, which is why I said I would pick 2 QBs and 4 OL.  

 

That's an exaggeration, of course.  And I also know they will spend draft picks on defense.

 

But if they have, let's say, the 19th pick in the draft, they have a 1st, 2nd, and 4th in the first half of the draft.  I'd honestly be completely fine if they picked 3 OL with those three picks.  

 

If they want to do something crazy later with a LB or something, be my guest.  But I'm spending all three early picks keeping whatever QB we have up-right. 

 

They have to find a way to not bring back Norwell, Turner, Charles and Wes Martin.  Rouiller can't stay healthy either.  

 

The tackles are fine for now with Leno, Lucas and Cosmi.  Literally everybody else needs to be replaced, starters and primary backups.  ** Minus the kid they drafted last year, I'd like to see how he develops and if he can make the team next year.  

[Warhead36]

We need an infusion of young talent on the OL. Its the only position(besides QB)that doesn't have a promising player 25 or younger. 

 

The defense is like a legitimate #1 CB away from being potentially league best, assuming we can get Young back to form. Payne is great but even if we lose him, if we get Young back in form that more than makes up for it, assuming Mathis can give us at least 60% of Payne's production(the real value in Payne though is his durability and availability, the guy plays like every game and almost every snap).

[Voice_of_Reason]

46 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We need an infusion of young talent on the OL. Its the only position(besides QB)that doesn't have a promising player 25 or younger. 

 

The defense is like a legitimate #1 CB away from being potentially league best, assuming we can get Young back to form. Payne is great but even if we lose him, if we get Young back in form that more than makes up for it, assuming Mathis can give us at least 60% of Payne's production(the real value in Payne though is his durability and availability, the guy plays like every game and almost every snap).

I think St. Juste can be a true #1 CB.  He’s only in his second year.  Availability is a concern.  
 

I think Fuller is good, but we need another 1-2 CBs in the mix. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[Going Commando]

It's insane we have two IDLs near the top of that list.

 

We ****ed up so damn bad by not getting a Payne extension done at the same time as McLauren's.  We figured out that Terry was a key building block and signed him early but couldn't do the same with Daron?  I was begging for that to happen because I knew we were making the exact same mistake we made with Scherff in the spring and summer of 2020.  Now he's going to be at least 50% more expensive and we're going to have to play the franchise tag game with him and ruin his morale and then eventually have to replace him with a far lesser player.

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

It's insane we have two IDLs near the top of that list.

 

We ****ed up so damn bad by not getting a Payne extension done at the same time as McLauren's.  We figured out that Terry was a key building block and signed him early but couldn't do the same with Daron?  I was begging for that to happen because I knew we were making the exact same mistake we made with Scherff in the spring and summer of 2020.  Now he's going to be at least 50% more expensive and we're going to have to play the franchise tag game with him and ruin his morale and then eventually have to replace him with a far lesser player.

Same. He had a very similar season to Allen the year before, then spent the offseason at the top pass rusher camp. I wanted him signed as much if not more than Terry and knew his price was gonna jump.

 

People just like to label him as a run stuffer and that's only half true. He's the wrecking ball who creates the chaos.

[Going Commando]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:38 PM, Warhead36 said:

We need an infusion of young talent on the OL. Its the only position(besides QB)that doesn't have a promising player 25 or younger. 

 

The defense is like a legitimate #1 CB away from being potentially league best, assuming we can get Young back to form. Payne is great but even if we lose him, if we get Young back in form that more than makes up for it, assuming Mathis can give us at least 60% of Payne's production(the real value in Payne though is his durability and availability, the guy plays like every game and almost every snap).

 

Cosmi is only 23 and he's a legit talent.  Paul is 24 and a worthy pipeline prospect with starter potential.  But we definitely need three more good prospects, as when you don't have a dominant QB then you need a dominant OL to contend.  I like Cosmi and Paul as the framework for a good line though, and I think we'd be surprised at how quickly a good line can come together for us if we hit on some high draft picks or a day three home run.  Paris Johnson Jr and a reliable center gets us there IMO.  PJJr = rookie starter at a tackle spot, play Cosmi at RG, keep Leno at LT for next season, give Roullier another shot on a reduced cap hit, but also bring in a second starting caliber center.  Either start the new guy if he's good enough and play Roullier at LG or vice versa.  Then the long term plan is to have PJJr take over at LT once Leno is no longer serviceable and probably play Cosmi at RT again.  Keep adding to the pipeline because most of your prospects will end up being Saahdiq Charles or Keith Ismael.

 

Mathis isn't going to be much of a replacement for Payne.  He's not even a full year younger than Payne and will basically be a rookie next season.  With Payne, this D's potential is special.  Relentless interior dominance setting the table for a bunch of other good players.  Without him, nobody looks as good.  The most hopeful outcome for Mathis is that he gets to good starter level by the time Allen starts to decline from age and Payne can no longer play 90% of our defensive snaps so we can keep a dominant interior push.  That's what the whole defense is predicated upon.  Losing Payne breaks this and it just can't happen.  We play the franchise tag game with him and hope we eventually get him signed, he's the most important player 25 and under on the roster.

[Warhead36]

Cosmi has some talent but I don't look at him as a cornerstone player and putting Chris freaking Paul in that discussion is absurd considering he hasn't played a down yet. 

 

I'm talking about young guys who have already proven they belong. Guys like Dotson, Robinson, Curl, Forrest, etc. We don't have anyone like that on our OL. Cosmi has been inconsistent at best. 

 

But yeah we definitely effed up with Payne. His biggest asset is just how durable and reliable he is. He plays every game and at a ridiculously high % of snaps. Even if his play the next four years drops off about 10-15%, he'd still be worth it because of just how much he's on the field. 

[Going Commando]

17 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Cosmi has some talent but I don't look at him as a cornerstone player and putting Chris freaking Paul in that discussion is absurd considering he hasn't played a down yet. 

 

I'm talking about young guys who have already proven they belong. Guys like Dotson, Robinson, Curl, Forrest, etc. We don't have anyone like that on our OL. Cosmi has been inconsistent at best. 

 

But yeah we definitely effed up with Payne. His biggest asset is just how durable and reliable he is. He plays every game and at a ridiculously high % of snaps. Even if his play the next four years drops off about 10-15%, he'd still be worth it because of just how much he's on the field. 

 

Cosmi has been in and out of the lineup due to injury, but when he plays he's a difference maker.  He has the special movement skills as a lineman to scheme around, and he's also been the only OL prospect we've taken that has played early and played well.  That means there will be a point in the next few years where he is our most veteran and best lineman and the natural leader of the group--unless we get some kind of stud prospect this year.  Failing that, he's a cornerstone.

 

Certainly I could be reaching with Paul, but I just think he's good.  Tyler Smith has been pretty good and a starting caliber player for Dallas, and I think Paul looked as good, if not better than him in the Ohio State game cut ups.  His first step is elite and his slide is fluid and balanced and he can redirect and mirror against fast counter rushers.  You can see from his jump sets how twitchy and explosive he is, and he ran a 4.89 40.  Those are some high end traits, and he also got rave reviews for his character/intelligence/leadership skills.  That makes him different than the other Day 3 OL prospects we've brought in to me.  I wouldn't hold the fact that he hasn't played yet against him because he's had vets who've been here in front him, and he needed time to get stronger in order to handle NFL power.

 

Just because they haven't played well this year doesn't mean we don't have worthy long term pieces on the OL.  Would you have said that we didn't have worthy long term pieces in the secondary when they were playing like trash last year?  Dudes like Curl, Forrest, and Juice emerged, and this is how a development plan is supposed to happen.  Cosmi and Paul are still on schedule with their development.  I think Cosmi is our RG of the future and Paul is our RT.

[Skinsinparadise]

His role now has required a different kind of grind — and a wider lens.

His hours are longer, for one. The Mondays and Tuesdays he would typically have off, or at least be among his lighter days, are now his more arduous ones as he reviews film of the Commanders’ next opponent and helps with game-planning.

 

Defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio tasked Kerrigan with handling the protections each week ahead of games. He’s responsible for analyzing opposing offensive lines and relaying to players what tendencies to watch and what types of plays could result.

“Most of my film study as a player was based on a guy, a person that I was going against,” Kerrigan said. “Whereas now as a coach, you got to look at things through more of a schematic lens. … You see how it all fits together. You’re better with presnap motions and things like that, like, okay, when this team’s doing this motion, that’s typically been this play or they come out in this formation, and that leans heavy to this type of play. And you can see it develop a little clearer when you’re on the sidelines.”

 

Coupled with Zgonina, Washington’s D-line coaches bring 27 total years of experience in the trenches, with one an expert on the interior and the other a standout on the edge.

 

Although they differ in title and style — Zgonina was promoted in part because he was more of a vocal coach, and Kerrigan was regarded as more of a quiet leader during his playing days — the two have taken a collaborative approach in coaching the line.

“I’m always asking, ‘Where did your eyes go when this block came? Was it the hip? Was it the neck? Was it this or that?’’ Zgonina said of Kerrigan. “So, he’s sharpened me on it and he teaches those guys because it's second nature to him.”

 

Kerrigan has started to find his voice in the meeting rooms, but his attention to detail — a hallmark of his success as a player — has translated to his teachings. And Coach Ron Rivera believes it’s only resulted in more production from the line.

 

Montez Sweat, a fourth-year defensive end, has developed into one of the league’s top edge players, with seven sacks, 48 total pressures and 27 run-stops, according to Pro Football Focus.

“You see a little more of the discipline, a little more of the understanding,” Rivera said of Sweat. “When he's running certain line games or stunts, there's a little more patience. When you watch how he works so well with each one of the tackles too and there's a timing element that has to be done while they're doing those extra things. They're working on those things.”

Kerrigan cites his former linebacker coaches in Washington, Chad Grimm and Brian Baker, as two of the many who have influenced his own coaching style because of their emphasis on fundamentals and their broader understanding of the game. Kerrigan believes his game took off once he started to understand the bigger picture more clearly.

 

Grimm’s knowledge of formations and offensive tendencies helped Kerrigan think less and play faster. Baker’s attention to technique helped to refine Kerrigan’s skills as a pass-rusher.

“'I’m a big believer in being exact with your details,” he said.

When he played, the details for Kerrigan became all-consuming. His diet. His recovery schedule. His workouts. The hours of prioritizing football over everything else. The mental hurdle each day became more and more difficult to cross, and letting some of it go has been a “relief,” Kerrigan said. But the itch to compete never subsided.

“Being involved competitively is just really cool and rewarding, especially when you’re able to succeed,” he said. “And it’s really gratifying when you see a little tidbit of advice and just something you might have gone over for even just the briefest of moments in the meeting room applied in a grand way on Sunday. It’s pretty awesome.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/10/ryan-kerrigan-coaching-commanders/

[Skinsinparadise]

On 12/9/2022 at 7:55 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Same. He had a very similar season to Allen the year before, then spent the offseason at the top pass rusher camp. I wanted him signed as much if not more than Terry and knew his price was gonna jump.

 

People just like to label him as a run stuffer and that's only half true. He's the wrecking ball who creates the chaos.

 

Payne dooesn't really talk much so when he does it sticks with me.  He said this off season was a big one for him, he knew he wasn't what he wanted to be as a pass rusher and worked hard on improving that in the off season, specifically to finishing his pass rushes which he talked about.   In short, he worked on pass rushing moves with coaches and focused on upgrading that part of his game.  And he asked for help on the pass rushing front. 

 

And yeah some who know him during the off season said he really really really wants to get paid -- so he was uber motivated this off season and the contract year is likely bringing out his best.  I know some see contract year peak seasons as a red flag.  I typically don't unless there are character-hunger concenrs about said player -- and i don't think Payne has those concerns. 

 

I mentioned during the camp period that Logan Paulsen who said he watched Payne in previous camps but in this one he looked very hungry, determinded in a way he's not seen previously.  He had the eye of the tiger so to speak.

 

I get the point about Allen but he already had breakthrough seasons as a pass rusher both at Alabama and in the pros.  Yeah the one season where his sacks were down yet PFF lauded him anyway because of all the pressures he had was on point but it wasn't a slow burn for Allen as to putting up sack numbers.  

 

My point is Payne wasn't this level good in the past IMO as he is this season.   This season is a breakout season for him.   I don't think he was as good as a pass rusher in the past and now its simply that the sack numbers just happening to be coming for him.  In my view, he's taken his game up a notch this season -- he himself says the same -- so on that front that's what has me optimistic about him.  I think Payne has found a new gear and that spells good things. 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

I wish Montez was as smart as Kerrigan and had his mind for the game.  If he did, he would be one of the best defensive players in the league.  He'd be a perennial All Pro, because his physical ability to dominate is off the charts, and his toughness, durability, and willingness to play within the scheme are all there.  He just doesn't have that elite extra step that comes from playing the game with superior anticipation because you can see every thing coming and convert a bunch of those rep wins into game changing plays.

[Going Commando]

The Raiders have the best WR and RB in the league, and a good QB and LT.  Then on defense have the best edge, plus another really dynamic one who used to be the top player at the position, and absolute bruiser at ILB in Perryman.  How is this team three games under .500?   How tf is this team not scoring 30 points a game with all that talent on offense?  Some of their losses are so bad.  It's one thing to lose to the Titans or Chiefs, but losing to the Jags and Colts and a Rams team that was utterly spent and getting shut out by the Saints?  This has to be a unique level of underachievement.  I could understand if they were crushed by injuries like the Chargers, but they've been healthy.  I think Josh McDaniels just isn't that good of a coach.

[Skinsinparadise]

Catching up to some posts here.  Chris Paul as I've mentioned in other threads has been lauded by the D line in practice according to Keim.

 

Scherff wasn't offered a contract if I recall right by the previous FO.  This FO tried to bring him back, offering him the most money in the league for guard, Scherff turned it down.  Mayhew who is a quiet dude actually was outright feisty talking about it.  Some beat guys who seemed to be in the know said Scherff liked Rivera but he wanted out -- he is a laid back midwestern type and this franchise is about drama, drama, drama.  

 

Payne from what I've heard is a laid back type too.   You can see that a little on display in his hang time interview with Tress Way.  Chill dude who loves candles among other things.  So hopefully like Scherff he doesn't want to leave.  If Dan indeed sells I think that will be a game changer as to keeping players and getting players to come. 

[IrepDC]

Neither Payne nor Sweat have hit their peak. Both are still developing and can potentially take another big leap. I have always asserted that DL peak in their late 20s early 30s unlike skill positions. The DL is like the opposite of RB; who generally peak early out the gate and then fall off. 

 

With that in mind, I kept saying to extend them before the next big leap. Even now, I don't think they're even close to done growing. They're still children in football years. Getting them all to a 2nd contract would lead to us having an all-time historic DL in my opinion.

[philibusters]

8 hours ago, Going Commando said:

The Raiders have the best WR and RB in the league, and a good QB and LT.  Then on defense have the best edge, plus another really dynamic one who used to be the top player at the position, and absolute bruiser at ILB in Perryman.  How is this team three games under .500?   How tf is this team not scoring 30 points a game with all that talent on offense?  Some of their losses are so bad.  It's one thing to lose to the Titans or Chiefs, but losing to the Jags and Colts and a Rams team that was utterly spent and getting shut out by the Saints?  This has to be a unique level of underachievement.  I could understand if they were crushed by injuries like the Chargers, but they've been healthy.  I think Josh McDaniels just isn't that good of a coach.

 

Analysts last year called the LA Rams the stars and scrubs approach.  The Rams last year were an example of when it works well.  3 or 4 absolute studs on each side of the ball, then the rest of the guys are just cheap starters where the front office is just trying to get value-basically find cheap servcieable starters.  Plus that receiving corps hasn't been healthy.  Two of the three stars in it (Renfrow and Waller) have struggled with injuries this year.

 

The Raiders are an example of what that approach doesn't work all that well.  Your studs don't play at an elite enough level (though they are good) and the some of your other starters are not serviceable and you have holes on the O-line and other spots.

 

This year the Rams are example of what happens with that approach when the stars in the "stars and scrubs" approach take a disproportionate amount of injuries (though their serviceable starters have also taken a lot of injuries--they have just been injured a lot this year after good injury luck the past two years).

Edited December 11, 2022 by philibusters

[wit33]

23 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Analysts last year called the LA Rams the stars and scrubs approach.  The Rams last year were an example of when it works well.  3 or 4 absolute studs on each side of the ball, then the rest of the guys are just cheap starters where the front office is just trying to get value-basically find cheap servcieable starters.  Plus that receiving corps hasn't been healthy.  Two of the three stars in it (Renfrow and Waller) have struggled with injuries this year.

 

The Raiders are an example of what that approach doesn't work all that well.  Your studs don't play at an elite enough level (though they are good) and the some of your other starters are not serviceable and you have holes on the O-line and other spots.

 

This year the Rams are example of what happens with that approach when the stars in the "stars and scrubs" approach take a disproportionate amount of injuries (though their serviceable starters have also taken a lot of injuries--they have just been injured a lot this year after good injury luck the past two years).

 

 

Not sure if familiar with the stock market, I barely am myself and pretty much talking out of my @@$ a bit. 
 

I relate it to “random walk theory” some refer to with the stock market. The NFL behaves in a very similar way. Institutional money equals Mahomes and Josh Allen and the rest of the league is retail investors. 

[philibusters]

11 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Not sure if familiar with the stock market, I barely am myself and pretty much talking out of my @@$ a bit. 
 

I relate it to “random walk theory” some refer to with the stock market. The NFL behaves in a very similar way. Institutional money equals Mahomes and Josh Allen and the rest of the league is retail investors. 

 

I think better players and better coaching have a decent size role in teams getting better or worse over time, but on a year to year basis there is some randomness.  I think the Vikings are a very similar team to last year, but last year they were 8-9, this year 10-3.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 12/9/2022 at 7:38 AM, Going Commando said:

It's insane we have two IDLs near the top of that list.

 

We ****ed up so damn bad by not getting a Payne extension done at the same time as McLauren's.  We figured out that Terry was a key building block and signed him early but couldn't do the same with Daron?  I was begging for that to happen because I knew we were making the exact same mistake we made with Scherff in the spring and summer of 2020.  Now he's going to be at least 50% more expensive and we're going to have to play the franchise tag game with him and ruin his morale and then eventually have to replace him with a far lesser player.

 

There's a huge difference between the two. Terry has always worked his ass off developing areas he could improve. Supposedly this was the first off-season Daron was that gungho.

 

If he had that longterm contract in February, would he have tried as hard and as determined to grow in the off-season?

[tmandoug1]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:24 PM, Stone Cold said:

We’re ol depth and credible qb play away on offense.  I wouldn’t dismiss our talent based on what 4 does running the offense.  We can get ol talent thru the mid late rounds, udfa and fa.  What we can’t do is get a game wrecker to add to a budding top tier defense cheaply unless we draft one.  I’m looking impact from a player drafted in round 1.  Someone that can come in day 1 and make a difference.  A linebacker with no pressure to carry a defense but see ball chase ball would cement us as a perennial top 5 defense.  A chess piece for JDR to utilize all over in an aggressive manner.

Ol depth? You're kidding right? You have to have a starting O line before you even start talking about depth. 

 

We can get ol talent thru the mid late rounds, udfa and fa.

 

I feel like your kidding and I got a hook.  I missed the joke somehow! Right.....right?

[Koolblue13]

After watching the Eagles and 49ers yesterday, our defense doesn't feel so special. 

 

Maybe if we had any kind of offense it be different.