All things defense

[Die Hard]

8 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Meh, he just doesn’t play fast. Hoping for the best. But the language about his rehab suggests he’s not there yet. And this is year 3 of Chase. Running out of time.

[Est.1974]

Chase is the odd man out for me when talking DL retention. In fact I’d let him play 2023 without taking the option up, I don’t see how you can risk that when it guarantees for injury.

 

Get Payne locked in, then see what return we can get on Sweat. I personally wouldn’t worry too much if he played out 2023 on his option too and we decided thereafter. He doesn’t appear to be a lockdown cornerstone of the future D to me.

 

Our interior DL strength is far superior to that on the Edge IMO. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Meh, he just doesn’t play fast. Hoping for the best. But the language about his rehab suggests he’s not there yet. And this is year 3 of Chase. Running out of time.

 

Running out of time?...He's 23. When/if he gets back to full health he can easily have a 7 year career of high level production ahead of him.

[Zim489]

Signing all 4 would be serious strain on the ability to build the rest of the Defense. A defense in this day and age should never go above 50% of the cap space. Still think its an utter mistake to sign Payne long term. Sweat plays a more vital position and is honestly better at his job than Payne is at his. Then you hope Chase gets back to form. 

 

The "but the cap is going up" will be included with contract negotiations. You wont be able to fit any more players under the cap. The %s will be the same with inflated numbers. Its a non factor. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Zim489

[veteranskinsfan]

Get rid of Wentz contract and then you have more flexibility in keeping who you want to keep long term.

[Renegade7]

9 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Get rid of Wentz contract and then you have more flexibility in keeping who you want to keep long term.

 

QBs aren't cheap, especially if they aren't on Rookie contracts.

 

We need to all be on same page any money we get back from cutting Wentz is already spent on his replacement, no eligible to be used elsewhere like the dline. 

[Zim489]

JA Cap space is currently 21 mil for 2023 estimated $225 mil cap. Roughly 9.3%. Lets assume Payne will be roughly the same % maybe 7% at the floor. Cam Jordan of the saints has the 7th highest cap hit in 2023 at 11% of the Cap. Lets put this across the entire line

 

JA 9%

Payne 7-8

Sweat 9-11

Chase 11.

 

Lets assume 35% of the Cap is going to the DLine. Leaving 15% to the rest of the defense.

 

IMO Horrid roster construction.

[Tress Is The Way]

45 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Compared to the videos from last week, he looks night and day different... hopefully he plays and flashes.

[Tress Is The Way]

14 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

JA Cap space is currently 21 mil for 2023 estimated $225 mil cap. Roughly 9.3%. Lets assume Payne will be roughly the same % maybe 7% at the floor. Cam Jordan of the saints has the 7th highest cap hit in 2023 at 11% of the Cap. Lets put this across the entire line

 

JA 9%

Payne 7-8

Sweat 9-11

Chase 11.

 

Lets assume 35% of the Cap is going to the DLine. Leaving 15% to the rest of the defense.

 

IMO Horrid roster construction.

You're assuming too much.

 

Yes JA is 9% of our cap in 2023, and if Payne gets a similar contract it, we MUST base it off of the cap space from allen this year.. so in reality Payne is only taking up about 4% of the cap in 2023 (JA 2022 cap space as per over the cap is 9.5 million which is around 4.4%)

 

Sweat is under contact in 2023 at 11.5.. which is 5%

 

Chase is under contact in 2023 at the same as Sweat so 5%

 

So you are looking at 23% of the cap to the D-line. Not 35%.  While still a little much with extensions and restructures I can see the team getting it to around 15 - 18% (currently it is at around 11% of the cap).

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

JA Cap space is currently 21 mil for 2023 estimated $225 mil cap. Roughly 9.3%. Lets assume Payne will be roughly the same % maybe 7% at the floor. Cam Jordan of the saints has the 7th highest cap hit in 2023 at 11% of the Cap. Lets put this across the entire line

 

JA 9%

Payne 7-8

Sweat 9-11

Chase 11.

 

Lets assume 35% of the Cap is going to the DLine. Leaving 15% to the rest of the defense.

 

IMO Horrid roster construction.

 

Right now, without Payne, about 22% of the 2023 cap is allocated to the DLine. Allen takes up the most at 9.5%

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Ahh yes…the glorious salary cap discussion. Riveting. 😆

 

Jamin Davis is scratching the surface. DeFo/St. Juste/Kurl are the kind of players I love. Those kids are gonna be a pretty solid unit for a while.

 

Excited to see Chase Young get some reps. I’m still hopeful for him. Seems like a good dude. I hope it works out for him.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Die Hard said:

Meh, he just doesn’t play fast. Hoping for the best. But the language about his rehab suggests he’s not there yet. And this is year 3 of Chase. Running out of time.

 

I’m not saying this to be negative, but people tend to forget that we don’t really have official measurables on Young bc he was such a slam dunk prospect that he didn’t do the workouts. We don’t actually know how much of a freak he is or isn’t, and there’s a huge correlation between measurables and production at EDGE.  It’s a position where supreme athleticism actually does matter. It’s not the end-all be-all, I’m just pointing out that we never really knew exactly what kind of prospect we were drafting outside of his tape. 

[Est.1974]

41 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

JA Cap space is currently 21 mil for 2023 estimated $225 mil cap. Roughly 9.3%. Lets assume Payne will be roughly the same % maybe 7% at the floor. Cam Jordan of the saints has the 7th highest cap hit in 2023 at 11% of the Cap. Lets put this across the entire line

 

JA 9%

Payne 7-8

Sweat 9-11

Chase 11.

 

Lets assume 35% of the Cap is going to the DLine. Leaving 15% to the rest of the defense.

 

IMO Horrid roster construction.

In the year Jon Allen signing his extension his cap number ended up around 7m, so less than 4% off the estimated cap for next year. In year 2 not much more. Payne will drop a 30mil signing bonus so the cap impact will really start to hit in 2025. The cap discussion is overblown as the deals won’t all peak at once.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

 

Lets assume 35% of the Cap is going to the DLine. Leaving 15% to the rest of the defense.

 

IMO Horrid roster construction.

 

Curious, didn't Giants do something similar for their Super Bowl runs with Eli?

 

If I remember correctly, they didn't hide their formula as being dline heavy defense from a money and draft pick resource standpoint, then at some point in the end it all finally backfired (but that dline did prevent the only 19-0 team from ever happening).

[CapsSkins]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He'd be the odd man out for me too.  But if possible I want all 4.  Is it doable?  I don't know.  But I do know the cap is supposed to soar soon.   

 

I don't see why we couldn't re-sign everyone and trade one of them if the cap becomes an issue. Keep 'em as long as you can and sell high / get value if you need to lose one of them.

[NoCalMike]

Usually coming back from an injury like this you don't get your initial burst back (also the mental trust to use your surgically prepared knee) until you've played a handful of games.  Chase Young is on his own timeline here outside of what the team is currently doing.  With 7 games to go, I think it is reasonable to hope for a 100% Chase Young for the final 2-3 games, but acting like we are getting Chase Young at full-go on Sunday (or whenever he returns) is wishful thinking.

[Die Hard]

44 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

I’m not saying this to be negative, but people tend to forget that we don’t really have official measurables on Young bc he was such a slam dunk prospect that he didn’t do the workouts. We don’t actually know how much of a freak he is or isn’t, and there’s a huge correlation between measurables and production at EDGE.  It’s a position where supreme athleticism actually does matter. It’s not the end-all be-all, I’m just pointing out that we never really knew exactly what kind of prospect we were drafting outside of his tape. 

Just based on what I heard… his first step was supposed to be transcendent.

 

And coming from Ohio state, he was tabbed as better than the Bosas (ie. from a technical aspect).  
 

And I have only seen an incredible first step once…. last preseason against the Pats.

 

Hes a stout player…. but he’s not quick twitch at all. He doesn’t bend. And he still is under developed in moves and counter moves.

 

I just don’t see anything special about him.

 

 

[JSSkinz]

I like that Ron told JP we're going to retain Payne, he said it's gonna be hard but we're going to get it done. 

[Die Hard]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Running out of time?...He's 23. When/if he gets back to full health he can easily have a 7 year career of high level production ahead of him.

For sure. Just not with the Commanders. He had 7 sacks his rookie year. He had 1 last year. He’s not going to produce this year (more than likely). 
 

Doesn’t the team have to decide this off-season if they’re going to pick up his 5th year option? Based on what? 10 or so sacks in 3 years?!?

 

He has to explode next year, his 4th season… to get an extension from this team. Otherwise, are you really going to commit $20M/year to him???? What’s he even worth right now?

 

 

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

Signing all 4 would be serious strain on the ability to build the rest of the Defense. A defense in this day and age should never go above 50% of the cap space. Still think its an utter mistake to sign Payne long term. Sweat plays a more vital position and is honestly better at his job than Payne is at his. Then you hope Chase gets back to form. 

 

The "but the cap is going up" will be included with contract negotiations. You wont be able to fit any more players under the cap. The %s will be the same with inflated numbers. Its a non factor. 

Buffalo, Philly, Miami, SF, and Cincy all spend more on defense than offense.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

For sure. Just not with the Commanders. He had 7 sacks his rookie year. He had 1 last year. He’s not going to produce this year (more than likely). 
 

Doesn’t the team have to decide this off-season if they’re going to pick up his 5th year option? Based on what? 10 or so sacks in 3 years?!?

 

He has to explode next year, his 4th season… to get an extension from this team. Otherwise, are you really going to commit $20M/year to him???? What’s he even worth right now?

 

 

 

 

Oh, you mean the team is running out of time, not Chase...that's true.

[Dark Acre]

Start Heinecke, pay Sweat.

 

Everysinglepersonhere, without a doubt, wants to see Taylor Heinecke starting at QB in the NFC Championship with a dominant defensive line of Sweat-Payne-Allen-Young.

 

And I don't mean you want to see the team in the NFC Championship.  Everyone here wants Taylor to be able to do it because, admit it, you want Taylor Heinecke to succeed, because he makes us feel good.  And I think the team rallies around him for the same reason.

 

And do you really want to see Montez Sweat spend the rest of his career in Pro-Bowl consideration, every year, for another team?

 

Taylor Heinecke is the key to keeping that line.  There's nobody at QB we're going to get next year who will be worth more than keeping that line together (assuming Chase has sufficiently recovered), and you *can* win with Heinecke.  He's limited, but he's limited in the same, single way:  he doesn't have an arm.  You can compensate for that and win -- or he wouldn't be able to put mutliple wins together.

 

Sweat's gonna blow up big.  Keep him.  Root for Heiny.

[NoVaSkins21]

Allen and Payne were drafted a year apart.  It would make sense to keep them together for the sake of chemistry and continuity

[Zim489]

30 minutes ago, Dark Acre said:

wants to see Taylor Heinecke starting at QB in the NFC Championship

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Dark Acre said:

Start Heinecke, pay Sweat.

 

Everysinglepersonhere, without a doubt, wants to see Taylor Heinecke starting at QB in the NFC Championship with a dominant defensive line of Sweat-Payne-Allen-Young.

 

And I don't mean you want to see the team in the NFC Championship.  Everyone here wants Taylor to be able to do it because, admit it, you want Taylor Heinecke to succeed, because he makes us feel good.  And I think the team rallies around him for the same reason.

 

And do you really want to see Montez Sweat spend the rest of his career in Pro-Bowl consideration, every year, for another team?

 

Taylor Heinecke is the key to keeping that line.  There's nobody at QB we're going to get next year who will be worth more than keeping that line together (assuming Chase has sufficiently recovered), and you *can* win with Heinecke.  He's limited, but he's limited in the same, single way:  he doesn't have an arm.  You can compensate for that and win -- or he wouldn't be able to put mutliple wins together.

 

Sweat's gonna blow up big.  Keep him.  Root for Heiny.

 

I was with you until I realized you were actually advocating for moving forward next year with Heinicke as the starter. lol no thanks, I’m good.