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WFT Branding Study (Part 2)


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3 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

For me Red Tails is a great name and it honors something cool. I seriously hope we go with this or just stay as the WFT. 

 

 

"Wow, the Giants really spanked those tails red today!"  "Hey how's that redtail doing after that ass whipping the Cowboys put on you?"    

 

Some names sound great until you consider them in practical application.  

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31 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

"Wow, the Giants really spanked those tails red today!"  "Hey how's that redtail doing after that ass whipping the Cowboys put on you?"    

 

Some names sound great until you consider them in practical application.  

I'm ok with all of this because it will get old after a while....no different then if you insert Redskins in those Cowboys jokes. "Red Tails bomb Cowboys" or "Eagles get shot down by Red Tails".....None of that stuff means anything compared to honoring the true Red Tails who fought for our country. The logo's would be cool and I think we'd attract a whole bunch of new fans because of the meaning behind the name. 

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1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

I'm ok with all of this because it will get old after a while....no different then if you insert Redskins in those Cowboys jokes. "Red Tails bomb Cowboys" or "Eagles get shot down by Red Tails".....None of that stuff means anything compared to honoring the true Red Tails who fought for our country. The logo's would be cool and I think we'd attract a whole bunch of new fans because of the meaning behind the name. 

 

My personal opinion, and that is all it is...the way forward is to honor everyone and not one specific group.  I agree, the Tuskegee Pilots were heroes, and deserve all the recognition they can get.  I just think things start to get dicey when you start naming sports teams after specific groups.  Some might think it trivializes what they went through, and what specifically does Redtails have to do with Washington D.C. and the surrounding areas?  


I guess for me after all the **** we had to put up with for years with the Redskins name controversy, all the arguments that were made pro and against, do we really want to go down the road of honoring specific groups again?  What is acceptable in 2021 may have a totally different meaning 50 years from now.  They want this name to last for 100 years.  I like Warriors because it's not group specific.  Yes it's been used, yes it's a very common sports name, but after what we just went through safe and common is fine with me.  Make the logos and branding cool.  Do something different with the look.  The possibilities are endless.    

 

I'm a lifelong fan.  Lived through the Gibbs I era, and remember watching all the great moments live.  My entire basement is a shrine dedicated to my love for this team.  For me, forcing a name if for no other reason to allow us to keep HTTR, or wholesale change of the fight song lyrics just to keep the same music is dishonoring the past.  The color scheme is the same, and that is the tie that binds.  I think trying to make the old traditions fit in new ways just rubs salt in the wound.  I'd rather just start fresh and make new traditions.   

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For me, Red Wolves is my favorite. It’s completely benign and would be easy to make really cool without offending anyone.

 

I like Red Tails but I worry it would lead to controversy. For example, if some members of the Tuskegee Airmen or their families objected to it, etc.

 

I also like Warriors, which I would market as U.S. Armed Forces specifically, as you could honor the Red Tails and all other groups. Some really neat tie ins with the Pentagon and military units in the DMV like USMC drill team, or stealing some cool Seal Team 6 motifs (HQ is VA). There could be controversy from anti-war or pacifist groups.

 

My only real vehement dislike is I want nothing American Indian/ Native American/ Tribal related, as it would defeat the purpose for me of changing the name and mascot, since it would still likely offend portions of the Tribal community.

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3 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

My only real vehement dislike is I want nothing American Indian/ Native American/ Tribal related, as it would defeat the purpose for me of changing the name and mascot, since it would still likely offend portions of the Tribal community.

 

That's the main reason I want RedWolves, BECAUSE of its native american connotations. Look up the Marvel Superhero "Red Wolf." He was originally dressed in burgundy and gold, too. 

 

I became a fan of the team BECAUSE I love the NA connections. I think RW could be a great way to have some subtle connection to that for those who want to interpret it that way, but nothing that would offend. Although you never know in this day and age. 

 

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1 minute ago, Dissident2 said:

 

That's the main reason I want RedWolves, BECAUSE of its native american connotations. Look up the Marvel Superhero "Red Wolf." He was originally dressed in burgundy and gold, too. 

 

I became a fan of the team BECAUSE I love the NA connections. I think RW could be a great way to have some subtle connection to that for those who want to interpret it that way, but nothing that would offend. Although you never know in this day and age. 

 

The Native American activists who fought to have the name changed spoke about cultural appropriation.  The Redskins were the low-hanging fruit and the obvious main target.  Now that the name is gone, everybody else is being targeted as well.  The Chiefs, Indians.. heck today Valparaiso University in Indiana announced it is changing from "The Crusaders" due to some groups using that word in a negative light.

 

If the Red Wolf is a sacred animal to Native Americans, we are just starting over with the same problem again.  The team itself has said there will be no Native American ties whatsoever in the new branding, as well it shouldn't be.  You don't eliminate one problem just to create a new one.  Any name that will immediately have rational and reasonable arguments made against it by an offended party should be off limits.

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30 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

The Native American activists who fought to have the name changed spoke about cultural appropriation.  The Redskins were the low-hanging fruit and the obvious main target.  Now that the name is gone, everybody else is being targeted as well.  The Chiefs, Indians.. heck today Valparaiso University in Indiana announced it is changing from "The Crusaders" due to some groups using that word in a negative light.

 

If the Red Wolf is a sacred animal to Native Americans, we are just starting over with the same problem again.  The team itself has said there will be no Native American ties whatsoever in the new branding, as well it shouldn't be.  You don't eliminate one problem just to create a new one.  Any name that will immediately have rational and reasonable arguments made against it by an offended party should be off limits.

 

Almost ALL animals were/are sacred to Native Americans. Eagles are sacred. Bears are sacred. Buffalos are sacred. There's nothing special about the Red Wolf in that regard. In fact, most people who are for the name probably have no idea about any NA ties, certainly not the Marvel character I referenced. Most just think it's a cool sounding name. I happen to agree, although I know others don't. There's not a single name I've heard that has more marketing and more fan-related possibilities, too. I think it would be fantastic. The fact that I can PERSONALLY tie it into NA symbology is just extra juice for me as far as wanting that name, but I seriously doubt you're going to have NA leaders coming out and denouncing "RedWolves" because it's "a sacred animal to us." What they probably WILL do is complain that it's too close to "Redskins." That's not an argument I think would have a ton of traction. Nor should it, imo. 

 

I've already heard far more complaints for "Warriors" from NAs saying that with that name it would be obvious we were intending to preserve ties with NA history. 

 

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if I had a vote it would be against the names of both Red Wolves and Red Tails. That goes for Red Sharks, Red Riders, Red Beans, Red Ink, etc.  Why have to include a color?  Why not something straightforward  like Wolves or Sharks or Warriors, etc., and then let the marketeers play with color themes they want. 

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2 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

I've already heard far more complaints for "Warriors" from NAs saying that with that name it would be obvious we were intending to preserve ties with NA history. 

 

 

Well if there is no Native American imagery with a Warriors rebranding, there are no ties to the past.  Warriors doesn't work for us if you keep the old logo/themes, which is originally what they thought we were going to do, and why they had a problem with that name.  Warriors with a totally new logo is fine.  There were Native American Warriors for sure, but they don't have a monopoly on that word.  Every group since the beginning of human history has had Warriors.  Warrior also mean anyone who is fighting a battle of any kind.  A Warrior is a soldier, but it also doesn't have to be a soldier.  I suppose you could also make the same argument for animals, i.e. Red Wolf, but I don't like that name for other reasons I've already mentioned.           

Just now, Wyvern said:

if I had a vote it would be against the names of both Red Wolves and Red Tails. That goes for Red Sharks, Red Riders, Red Beans, Red Ink, etc.  Why have to include a color?  Why not something straightforward  like Wolves or Sharks or Warriors, etc., and then let the marketeers play with color themes they want. 

I think the main reason people want to keep the color allows the fans to keep HTTR, etc.  I think that's a very poor reason to choose a name.  "R" or "red" anything just for the sake of keeping an acronym is silly...in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Painkiller said:

 

Well if there is no Native American imagery with a Warriors rebranding, there are no ties to the past.  Warriors doesn't work for us if you keep the old logo/themes, which is originally what they thought we were going to do, and why they had a problem with that name.  Warriors with a totally new logo is fine.  There were Native American Warriors for sure, but they don't have a monopoly on that word.  Every group since the beginning of human history has had Warriors.  Warrior also mean anyone who is fighting a battle of any kind.  A Warrior is a soldier, but it also doesn't have to be a soldier.  I suppose you could also make the same argument for animals, i.e. Red Wolf, but I don't like that name for other reasons I've already mentioned.           

 

No arguments here, and I personally would be OK with Warriors, although it's not my top choice obviously. But there's already been stuff written about people who think this would not satisfy the "no NA references." 

 

I remember this quote from last year by Erik Brady: 

"But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the team jettisons all Native American imagery and still chooses Warriors. Sorry, that won’t work either: Some Washington fans would see it as an invitation to continue dressing up as play Indians — more white guys in war paint. That’s because Warriors, as a mascot in sports, has a long history of employing Native American tropes."

 

Again, I say that's taking things too far, but people would still be complaining. 

 

Where the Red Wolf thing differs is just what you said ... it's a legitimate animal that's actually native to the area. Just as NAs shouldn't have a monopoly on "Warriors," that shouldn't come into play when choosing an animal name either. Whether or not people think that's a good name is another story.  

 

I guess we'll see ... 

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1 hour ago, Dissident2 said:

 

I remember this quote from last year by Erik Brady: 

"But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the team jettisons all Native American imagery and still chooses Warriors. Sorry, that won’t work either: Some Washington fans would see it as an invitation to continue dressing up as play Indians — more white guys in war paint. That’s because Warriors, as a mascot in sports, has a long history of employing Native American tropes."

 

Again, I say that's taking things too far, but people would still be complaining. 

 

I definitely agree that an argument like that doesn't satisfy my rational and reasonable argument standard, lol.  Anybody who legitimately tries to argue that point has jumped the shark, especially if the new logo and branding has zero references to Native Americans. 

 

Also, if they don't think that for decades some people are going to choose to wear Redskins gear into the stadium they are sadly mistaken, jerseys, hats, gloves, coats, etc.  I've been to the stadium for numerous games, the headdress crowd were very few and far between to start with.  Now they would just look stupid.           

 

 

28 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

That's an absolutely absurd leap. 

a lot of people thought this whole thing was absurd...but here we are. 

 

If there was a chance that the same people that had a problem with Redskins have a problem with Redwolves I would absolutely steer clear of that name.  

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9 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

I definitely agree that an argument like that doesn't satisfy my rational and reasonable argument standard, lol.  Anybody who legitimately tries to argue that point has jumped the shark, especially if the new logo and branding has zero references to Native Americans. 

 

Also, if they don't think that for decades some people are going to choose to wear Redskins gear into the stadium they are sadly mistaken, jerseys, hats, gloves, coats, etc.  I've been to the stadium for numerous games, the headdress crowd were very few and far between to start with.  Now they would just look stupid.           

 

 

a lot of people thought this whole thing was absurd...but here we are. 

 

If there was a chance that the same people that had a problem with Redskins have a problem with Redwolves I would absolutely steer clear of that name.  

Would you look at a table of native Americans at Applebees and say "hello redskins"? No, of course not.

 

Is that remotely similar to saying "what's the native wolf to this area?" and someone saying "red wolf?

 

Is Grey Wolf offensive? Is yellow or black skin? 

 

Just stop.

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I’m also fine with WFT for another year but will be really disappointed if they make that the final name. It’s just a lame cop out. It’s also still really awkward to describe your fandom. No one will say I’m a Washington Football Team fan and  “I’m a Washington fan.” is confusing as hell.

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2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Would you look at a table of native Americans at Applebees and say "hello redskins"? No, of course not.

 

Is that remotely similar to saying "what's the native wolf to this area?" and someone saying "red wolf?

 

Is Grey Wolf offensive? Is yellow or black skin? 

 

Just stop.

 

For question 1, no of course not.  I wouldn't have done that when the team was called Redskins.

  

Given what we just went through, I think it is totally fair to ensure that the next name does not cause anyone reasonable offense.  You don't want to name the team Redwolves, and then a day later find somebody you didn't bother to ask writing a piece in the U.S.A. Today about why it's also a bad choice because X,Y, and Z.  The Red Wolf at one time was native to this area.  Not anymore, and there are barely any left.  I think trying to tie a Red Wolf in as the "native wolf" to this area is also a very large reach.

 

I can see that you are totally sold on that name for whatever reason...that's cool.  I'd personally just rather go with Wolves and have the logo be a red wolf.   

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Painkiller said:

 

For question 1, no of course not.  I wouldn't have done that when the team was called Redskins.

  

Given what we just went through, I think it is totally fair to ensure that the next name does not cause anyone reasonable offense.  You don't want to name the team Redwolves, and then a day later find somebody you didn't bother to ask writing a piece in the U.S.A. Today about why it's also a bad choice because X,Y, and Z.  The Red Wolf at one time was native to this area.  Not anymore, and there are barely any left.  I think trying to tie a Red Wolf in as the "native wolf" to this area is also a very large reach.

 

I can see that you are totally sold on that name for whatever reason...that's cool.  I'd personally just rather go with Wolves and have the logo be a red wolf.   

 

 

 

They are native to the region and are trying to make a come back.

 

The reason they're going extinct is urban sprawl, so no one is going to give a **** and it's probably the only chance they have at being remembered after going extinct because of more track homes.

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17 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

I’m also fine with WFT for another year but will be really disappointed if they make that the final name. It’s just a lame cop out. It’s also still really awkward to describe your fandom. No one will say I’m a Washington Football Team fan and  “I’m a Washington fan.” is confusing as hell.

 

I agree, and for me there is no way they actually follow through with keeping that name.  From what I can tell, very very few people think that is the way to go long-term.  For the short term, sure I understand why.  You remove the controversy without having to rush a new brand, but this is no long-term answer.  

 

I don't see anyone wearing WFT gear.  I can't believe anyone seriously believes that's going to be their forever name.  

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5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Would you look at a table of native Americans at Applebees and say "hello redskins"? No, of course not.

 

 

But, you wouldn't do this with any other group of people, either.

 

I remember when Rivera was first asked about it, he said they wanted a name that honored Native Americans and there were a couple names he liked, but he didn't say what they were. He also mentioned at some point he had read a book on the American Indian. I think it was called " The Original All - Americans ", or something like that.

 

Whether that's still the case, I don't know 

 

I'm wondering if the name " Americans " had been considered.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

But, you wouldn't do this with any other group of people, either.

 

I remember when Rivera was first asked about it, he said they wanted a name that honored Native Americans and their were a couple names he liked, but he didn't say what they were. He also mentioned at some point he had read a book on the American Indian. I think it was called " The Original All - Americans ", or something like that.

 

Whether that's still the case, I don't know 

 

I'm wondering if the name " Americans " had been considered.

 

Since that time, and I can't remember where I read this, it was stated that there will be no Native American references made in the new brand.  I think I read that when it was first reported that the name was changing. 

 

I don't think you can have Native American references, because in addition to the name the argument was also cultural appropriation.  The people that had an issue with the name also had an issue with the whole idea of Native American imagery in Sports.  Hence, the Chiefs are now under fire.

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To go along with my earlier post where I was poking a bit of fun at Redtails....I try to think of a rebrand like this...which of these sounds most fitting.  I try to picture how the name will look and sound when compared to the other teams in the NFL.      
 

The Redwolves play the Lions in Detroit on Sunday.  
 

The Redtails host the Giants at Fed Ex Field on Monday night.  
 

The Warriors head to Dallas to play the Cowboys on Thanksgiving.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Painkiller said:

To go along with my earlier post where I was poking a bit of fun at Redtails....I try to think of a rebrand like this...which of these sounds most fitting.  I try to picture how the name will look and sound when compared to the other teams in the NFL.      
 

The Redwolves play the Lions in Detroit on Sunday.  
 

The Redtails host the Giants at Fed Ex Field on Monday night.  
 

The Warriors head to Dallas to play the Cowboys on Thanksgiving.

 

 

The Warriors still leaves some of that native american taste in the mouth, even though it wouldn't be angled that way.

 

We don't even talk about the genorcide of native americans in our history books. It's one of the most incredible white washings of recent history imaginable.

 

I think the Red part is good for the "R" on the helmet, where the feather can be a tail (which kind of sucks too for other reasons), but Wolves is great.

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12 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

Looking at the newer products pushed by fanatics/nfl shop. Seems that if there is a change, it's not soon. 

 

it was always going to be a two year thing.  Even Tennessee took a couple years to switch from the Oilers and they were planning on moving

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3 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

Looking at the newer products pushed by fanatics/nfl shop. Seems that if there is a change, it's not soon. 

The brand journey part of the official site states the new brand arrives in 2022.  Unless something happens to make things move more quickly they will be WFT for one more season.  I would like to see the new brand in place for 2021, but it probably won’t be ready yet.

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