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WFT Branding Study (Part 2)


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43 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

@DCdangerous

 

On this we will just have to disagree.  For me, Warriors works because unlike Redskins a single group of people is not singled out.  Warriors is a name that is broadly applicable.  Warriors can be everyone and no one in particular, and that’s a good thing in this predicament we find ourselves in.  
 

Also, for gods sake WHO CARES that a NBA team is also called the Warriors?  Why is that at all relevant to this discussion about a team that plays in a different league?  Redwolves fans are also completely ignoring (or ignorant of) the fact that somebody already owns that trademark (Arkansas State) and doesn’t play nice when somebody else decides to use it...even a semi pro soccer team in Chattanooga. 
 

Also, on the other hand, like I’ve said I’m fine with Wolves by itself.  I will howl with the best of them if that’s the name.  I just don’t want Red in the name.  RED in the name sucks if it’s not Redskins...for me it’s that simple.  

Who cares? Golden State cares. They just applied for a bunch of TMs with a focus on the Warriors name. So don’t bank on them willing to share their TM nor allowing other teams applying for Warriors TM. 

 

As for Redwolves that also has a TM barrier. But this one guys has applied for a specified Redwolves TM recently. If there is no opposition from Arkansas State, that TM could be available for WSH to acquire. 

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99% of names have the potential for a trademark battle. I'm sure it would hurt a lot less to take on a college rather than a major league team tho.

 

That is not even the thing that bugs me the most about the warriors name however.

 

After living thru WFT and seeing what happens with a team in our own division when it comes to having the same name as another major brand, I would not be to pumped to have everyone in the media start calling us the Washington Football Warriors.

 

That can stay a NY Football Giants thing IMO.

 

I'm tired of Washington Football anything at this point. Club, Team, its all undesirable

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4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

99% of names have the potential for a trademark battle.

 

I'm tired of Washington Football anything at this point. Club, Team, its all undesirable


On these we agree, especially when you don’t have a plan in case your hand is forced..., but that’s in the past now and we are moving forward.

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5 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

After living thru WFT and seeing what happens with a team in our own division when it comes to having the same name as another major brand, I would not be to pumped to have everyone in the media start calling us the Washington Football Warriors.

 

That can stay a NY Football Giants thing IMO.

 

I'm tired of Washington Football anything at this point. Club, Team, its all undesirable

You are by yourself in this regard. I like WFW or WW...

so poo!

 

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I got used to the WFT name and went through a stage of hoping that they keep it. I now realise that from a marketing standpoint, it's a total non-starter.

 

I hate the whole cuddly toy wolf thing, but then again I'm a miserable old git so it wouldn't really be aimed at me. I guess young fans would love it and it could turn out to be marketing gold. With that acknowledged, I would still prefer a ferocious, aggressive representation if we went with a wolf theme.

 

My first choice is still Warriors. I think that it's a good, strong name, but maybe I'm being influenced too much by the fact that the film of the same name had a big impact on me in my youth.

 

Whatever the choice, I'm sure that after a while it will become more familiar and will end up sounding "right". Newer fans will probably regard the Redskins name in the same way that many of us do now with Boston Braves.

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8 hours ago, Painkiller said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_State_Red_Wolves_football
 

“A panel selecting the new nickname first narrowed the list down to twelve finalists: A's, Black Wolves, Red Wolves, Diamonds, Express, Mallards, Mustangs, Red Dragons, Red Storm, Ridge Runners, Ridge Riders and Thunderbirds.”

 

Good grief, no wonder they ended up with Red Wolves if this was this 12 name set of options.  
 

All make good collegiate names though.  

You referenced Wikipedia? Did you make these edits yourself or a friend?

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From the ranking poll I recently released:

Top 5 names ranked at #1 and their choices 2-5

1. Redwolves (221 #1 votes)
2. Warriors (117 #1 votes)
3. Wolves (53 #1 votes)
4. WFT (44 #1 votes)

5. Other (37 #1 votes)

ImageImage

Image

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image.png.61d79c0320a7091b6a31016ce70044d0.png

 

 

 

Edited by DCdangerous
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3 hours ago, ClaytoAli said:

You referenced Wikipedia? Did you make these edits yourself or a friend?

 

For what reason would somebody make this information fraudulent?  😄  Doesn't even make sense.  Maybe if you look you can dig up a more "worthy" source for the list of name options for Arkansas State University in 2008.  If you think I personally would go that far you are mistaken.  I don't need to stack the deck to make my case.    

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15 hours ago, Painkiller said:

If you have to work that hard to convince people to get on board...

Nobody is working harder in this thread than you me boy. A true Washington Warrior if there ever has been one. Adorable 

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10 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

99% of names have the potential for a trademark battle. I'm sure it would hurt a lot less to take on a college rather than a major league team tho.

 

That is not even the thing that bugs me the most about the warriors name however.

 

After living thru WFT and seeing what happens with a team in our own division when it comes to having the same name as another major brand, I would not be to pumped to have everyone in the media start calling us the Washington Football Warriors.

 

That can stay a NY Football Giants thing IMO.

 

I'm tired of Washington Football anything at this point. Club, Team, its all undesirable

 

I believe this anomaly in the NY name is due to the fact that many many years ago NY had both a football and baseball team both called the Giants. Pretty common back in the day. Boston had the Braves (football and baseball). The football team moved to DC and the baseball team moved to Atlanta. The baseball Giants moved to San Francisco.

So I dont think our team will be referred to as the Washington Football Warriors. 

1. Warriors

2. Redwolves

3. Sentinels

Prefer the 60's color scheme throwbacks with darker burgundy and true gold but the current colors are cool too. Warriors / Sentinels can have a Spartan style spear on the helmet with a yellow ribbon hanging down. 

HTTR 

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The thing about “Wolves” is that the Redwolves camp still likes it and the Anti-Redwolves camp doesn’t seem to mind it. Also, the Warriors people get their alliteration. As long as the logo wasn’t a corny wolf but something cool, it would be popular amongst most people. 
 

The folklore of Native Americans returning as wolves after they pass also adds a very cool element of the old name passing on and returning as a wolf. 

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15 hours ago, Painkiller said:


I don’t believe that at all. Warriors does not have to be any one group, in fact, I believe that a strength of that name is that it is ambiguous...unless a specific style of Warrior is chosen. 

 

To me, the "ambiguous" nature of the name is its WEAKNESS. If we were still in a place where we could get away with having a spear logo or even the SAME LOGO we always had, then I'm more than down with Warriors. But we will never have any NA themes again, at least nothing overt. Obviously NA culture doesn't have sole claim to the word "Warriors" (even though that's what everyone would immediately think if that name was chosen), so that brings up a new problem. What do you use to represent a Warrior? That Spartan helmet thing? Then it gets way too specific. We're Greek warriors now? An American soldier? Then it gets too political, too nationalistic for many. A simple W? Then it's boring as all hell. The marketing possibilities with "Warriors," in this climate, are virtually NIL. They are not choosing that name for a variety of reasons. That's just one of many. 

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12 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

They are not choosing that name for a variety of reasons. That's just one of many. 

 

Sounds like you know something a lot of us don't...pray tell.  

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Somewhere out there is a Red Wolf that is catching some feels, and is probably scared to come out of its cave, because of all the attention being thrust upon the species. Better yet, the wolf is honored to be part of an NFL brand, but some Karen from PETA feels sorry for the wolf, and is making signs to stand in front of the stadium. “Don’t objectify the Wolf”. “Wolves have feelings too”. 

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1 hour ago, Wayne_Millner said:

The thing about “Wolves” is that the Redwolves camp still likes it and the Anti-Redwolves camp doesn’t seem to mind it. Also, the Warriors people get their alliteration. As long as the logo wasn’t a corny wolf but something cool, it would be popular amongst most people. 
 

The folklore of Native Americans returning as wolves after they pass also adds a very cool element of the old name passing on and returning as a wolf. 

 

I disagree with nothing you just said.  100%

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1 minute ago, Painkiller said:

 

I disagree with nothing you just said.  100%

But everyone has their own degree of "corny". For example. PK like that Wolves logo he showed, but many people consider that SUPER-corny.

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1 hour ago, bentskin said:

I believe this anomaly in the NY name is due to the fact that many many years ago NY had both a football and baseball team both called the Giants.

 

Even if that was an occurrence in the past it is not the case now, yet the naming convention still persists. If we adopt a name that is currently used by any other major franchise, especially a popular one, there is little to stop the continued practice.

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21 minutes ago, DCdangerous said:

But everyone has their own degree of "corny". For example. PK like that Wolves logo he showed, but many people consider that SUPER-corny.


For the record, that logo would be the centerpiece of my man-cave.  I would question the judgment of anyone who finds that logo corny.  

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1 hour ago, Painkiller said:

 

Sounds like you know something a lot of us don't...pray tell.  

Just a strong gut feeling. They are not going to choose something that could be so easily tied right back into NA themes. I think I shared way back in this thread an article that came out where the writer was talking about how they "could not" choose Warriors. "Warriors" is a name that's always been out there as an alternative, but it was there in the past as a way to easily change the name without changing anything else (aside from the fight song.)

 

And that's another strike against warriors. You can't sing "Hail to the Warriors." Just try it right now wherever you are. It just doesn't work. Those three-syllables are problematic. Nor can you sing "Hail to the Wolves." You need a two-syllable name for that song to continue, and rest assured, no matter what people may think about it, if Redwolves is chosen, people are going to be singing, "Hail to the Redwolves." 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

Just a strong gut feeling. They are not going to choose something that could be so easily tied right back into NA themes. I think I shared way back in this thread an article that came out where the writer was talking about how they "could not" choose Warriors. "Warriors" is a name that's always been out there as an alternative, but it was there in the past as a way to easily change the name without changing anything else (aside from the fight song.)

 

And that's another strike against warriors. You can't sing "Hail to the Warriors." Just try it right now wherever you are. It just doesn't work. Those three-syllables are problematic. Nor can you sing "Hail to the Wolves." You need a two-syllable name for that song to continue, and rest assured, no matter what people may think about it, if Redwolves is chosen, people are going to be singing, "Hail to the Redwolves." 

 

 

 

 

If you go back over this thread you will see multiple times where I have argued the opposite of everything you just argued lol, and that’s cool.  In America we can disagree and still be respectful. 
 

I think you could use “Hail to the Warriors” with only the slightest of tweaks to the lyrics.  I have demonstrated that in this very thread.  I have a musical background.  I know it could work.
 

I believe I remember the article you were referring to, but that was written with the expectation and attitude that we would only change the name to Warriors. The logo and everything else would remain. Those of us who have paid attention know that won’t work.  However, Warriors of a different ilk or with no direct imagery to Native Americans...what’s wrong with that?  Native Americans don’t have a monopoly on the concept of Warriors.  

 

To play devils advocate, how is a non-descript Warrior logo anymore a throwback to the old name than the Point made by @Wayne_Millnerthat Wolves have a cultural and spiritual connection to Native Americans when they die?   

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51 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

If you go back over this thread you will see multiple times where I have argued the opposite of everything you just argued lol, and that’s cool.  In America we can disagree and still be respectful. 

 Lol, yes, I am quite aware of that. Especially the "multiple" part. And I am cool with all that. It's a fun debate. 

 

 

Quote

I believe I remember the article you were referring to, but that was written with the expectation and attitude that we would only change the name to Warriors. The logo and everything else would remain. 

 

 

I originally wrote you were wrong about that, that it was written AFTER they announced the NA imagery was leaving, but I was wrong. That article did come out before that announcement. However, it did also say this: 

 

"But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the team jettisons all Native American imagery and still chooses Warriors. Sorry, that won’t work either: Some Washington fans would see it as an invitation to continue dressing up as play Indians — more white guys in war paint." To be clear, I think this was a generally lazy article and don't necessarily agree with everything in it, but ... NA imagery or not, there are problems with "Warriors" that are still there for NAs who didn't like "Redskin." That's a big strike against "Warriors."  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2020/07/08/washington-new-nfl-team-name-warriors-is-non-starter/5389663002/

 

Quote

I think you could use “Hail to the Warriors” with only the slightest of tweaks to the lyrics.  I have demonstrated that in this very thread.  I have a musical background.  I know it could work.

 

Sure, you can "make it work," but it in no way feels comfortable. I'm a longtime musician myself. It's a huge pet peeve of mine when people try to write "new lyrics" to existing songs and the lyrics just don't rhythmically fit. You see that on message boards all the time: someone tries to fit what they think are "funny" lyrics into a well-known song as a way to comment on some current event, and the words just have no natural flow at all. That's the case here. Yes, you can "make it work" the same way you can duct tape a broken table leg to make the table "work," but that doesn't mean it's a good, natural solution. The fight song would disappear if we go with "Warriors." People would try to force it, but it wouldn't work for long. Eventually they'd either stop singing it altogether or just go back to "Redskins."  Being able to sing "Redwolves" in there would make the latter far less likely. Especially if the team starts winning. 

 

 

Quote

To play devils advocate, how is a non-descript Warrior logo anymore a throwback to the old name than the Point made by @Wayne_Millnerthat Wolves have a cultural and spiritual connection to Native Americans when they die?   

 

Again, a "nondescript" logo by definition is incredibly problematic from a branding perspective (what I do for a living) in cases like this. Sure, if something has been around for decades upon decades, like "The Browns," there's marketing benefits simply from the tradition involved and the history there (even though it still absolutely sucks). But no new team today is going to choose "Browns" with basically no logo whatsoever. So then, like I said before, you have to figure out what is going to represent "Warrior" to your fanbase, and that's where the problems really accelerate, because just about anything could be a problem with that name from a visual perspective. Like I said before, if you could keep the old logo and imagery, it would be a MUCH smoother fit. But we can't, and so it isn't. 

 

You don't have any of those issues at all with "Redwolves." It's clear, it's distinct, it represents the whole "Wolves" vibe while remaining unique, etc. Yes, people can SAY it has NA ties and force those ties into the name if they choose to, but I think it would take a MUCH bigger reach for someone to complain about "Redwolves" or even "Wolves" from that perspective vs. the complaint that Warriors is simply a way to preserve the whole concept of a "Brave" or Indian fighter that the original name suggested. 

Edited by Dissident2
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And this is the last thing I'm going to post on this topic for awhile, as I think we've gotten to the point where things are just getting repeated over and over. But for those who are good with or prefer the more generic "Wolves," I submit this video called "Red Wolf Resilience" that depicts how vital it is to get the word out about this species and should give some indication of the opportunities to truly do something GREAT that would present themselves with an NFL team adopting this name. Choosing "Warriors," "Red Hogs," "Sentinels," etc., etc. won't accomplish anything of this magnitude. This could be something utterly unique in the league or in any sport: having a name that actually helps to restore a species of a uniquely American animal that desperately needs help. Yes, that would require action beyond just choosing the name, but I'm confident/hopeful that would happen. If you can watch this video and still say, "Nah, I'd rather just go with 'Wolves,' " then, I just don't get you, (wo)man. This actually gets me excited and passionate, and is about the only thing I can think of right now that would enable me to really feel pride in this team considering the owner we seem to be stuck with for the foreseeable future. This choice has absolutely everything: ties to the area, ties to our NA history that are subtle enough to fly under the radar, marketing opportunities galore AND a legitimate environmental cause attached that should make people proud to be a part of. It's got to be Redwolves. 

 

 

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@Dissident2

 

For the record again, I agree that the article is lazy.  I think the biggest reach is definitely the idea that caucasians will still show up to the stadium in full headdress...which is ridiculous because they were a small minority of fans when the name was Redskins.  I think most rational people would understand that no longer fits.  I’m quite certain if they get the rebrand wrong Redskins jerseys will still be prevalent on the stadium for years to come.  The key is to pick something that makes people not want to do that at all and get on board with the new duds.  
 

As for the fight song...we can discuss the musical semantics of it all day but the reality is “Hail to the Redskins” is probably going to be retired as well.  I don’t see the organization making a revamped version an official part of the new brand.  I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

I still think another problem is picking any name with Red in it, not just Redwolves.  I think the best strategy would be to go with a name that doesn’t use Red.  Washington Wolves works just fine for me.  I’m willing to admit the younger crowd at least from what I have seen would more likely gravitate towards the Wolves marketing aspects.  Once the decision is made it’s made and I will live with it, even if it’s Redwolves.  I will just call them the Wolves.

And I agree it’s probably time to step back for a while and see how things play out.  I’ve said my bit. 

Edited by Painkiller
Clarification on fight song
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8 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

 

Stars aligning level of unique and cool in terms of branding

 

On top of that we have the National Zoo in our backyard. They already have global efforts when it comes to animal conservation. With the teams financial input, you can partner with them and really push the narrative and it could all start with the Red Wolf success story. If you want to really brand, don't be a animal team, be THE animal team.

 

I used to love those team off season activities where you got to go to six flags with the players. You can have the same thing with the zoo moving forward. Not just having fun, but building awareness and learning. Win/Win. That is building an identity and a culture. One everyone can actively participate in and not just admire, while having fun to boot.

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@Dissident2I watched the video and the last thing I will say is I think it’s a very noble cause.  I think if we go with Wolves (as the grey Wolf is also endangered) we could make that a central aspect of the community outreach and marketing. 

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