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The Vaccine Thread


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For me, regardless of vaccination status, the mask and travel relaxations are part to blame for where we are now.  Delta, which didn’t originate in the US, is accounting for ~85% of all covid cases in the US.  It’s as easily transmitted from vaccinated as unvaccinated so I’m not sure cases would necessarily be down but severity of it would be from a hospitalization and death standpoint.

 

 It’s going to continue to mutate as long as people are infected until the world as a whole can be on the same timeline but it’s going to be challenging because of access in more of the 3rd world countries.

 

just my 2ce ts as I feel like we keep playing a blame game vs what can we do to improve situations where vaccines aren’t available as readily as they are here

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22 minutes ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

 

 

Geez!

I stated my lack of agenda, in the hope of trying to avoid these types of replies. I should've known better.😂😂

Having an agenda implies that I'm trying to push my beliefs on others, or am trying to sway or influence, and/or the way others think.  I half-heartedly had hoped that, in light of my tenure on the board and my lack of posting in any of the political threads, that I would get a pass.  Clearly that's not the case.   If one is gullible enough to change their beliefs,  based on posts that they read on a football teams message board,  then that's on them.

 

I stated "I firmly believe" that it was my own opinion, which I'm entitled to.  

 

 I'm not going to spend a great deal of time searching for "facts & figures, & scientific data", to justify my opinion.  It's my opinion, based on what I believe to be true.  I also believe that the "facts and figures" are only as good as the people entering them. Who is checking them? (that's a rhetorical question, BTW 😉)

I guess I don't take this message board stuff as seriously as others, and I respect too many of my ES brethren to argue, so I'll just back out this, as gracefully as possible, and wish everyone a good day.

Stay healthy,  my friends!

 

 

Posts like what? People asking you to support your opinion? You came to an opinion message board with an opinion, which is yes an agenda - which is totally OK. I did not call you any names, did not attack you personally. I simply asked you to support your opinion - which you did also phrase part of as a given fact that is not a given fact. 

 

But you are not willing to provide one shred of evidence to support your opinion? Nothing at all? Questioned once and you take a powder? C'mon, you can't be that thin skinned that someone simply asking for you to support your opinion/position runs you off? If you have an opinion - which is perfectly OK - there has to be some reason you got to where you believe that. On this board, you will be asked to provide data to support that position. It's not personal - but it will be asked. 


The problem with all these "opinions" without facts is that others hear it as fact and soon there is a web of misinformation. You are spreading something you heard somewhere that sounded like something you wanted to believe. It became fact for you. No research, no validation, no facts or data to support it or you would have gladly provided it when asked. 

 

And sorry, the entire ' data is only as good as who is entering them" is a cop out. Once you get to where you are willing to question any piece of data that does not fit your narrative no matter where it comes from (I look to the US Gov and scientific sources, not CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc) then you are free to create your own reality. That is where you get to proclaim you have an "opinion" but then frame it as fact - with the out later that you can say "Well I just said I firmly believe" to get you out of actually supporting that position. 

 

Leave, stay, post, don't post, that is obviously all up to you. But don't expect to throw some sort of "opinion" or "firm belief" out there, with a question attached to it (When are we going to address the elephant in the room?) with no data to support and not get called out on it. 

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15 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Posts like what? People asking you to support your opinion? You came to an opinion message board with an opinion, which is yes an agenda - which is totally OK. I did not call you any names, did not attack you personally. I simply asked you to support your opinion - which you did also phrase part of as a given fact that is not a given fact. 

 

But you are not willing to provide one shred of evidence to support your opinion? Nothing at all? Questioned once and you take a powder? C'mon, you can't be that thin skinned that someone simply asking for you to support your opinion/position runs you off? If you have an opinion - which is perfectly OK - there has to be some reason you got to where you believe that. On this board, you will be asked to provide data to support that position. It's not personal - but it will be asked. 


The problem with all these "opinions" without facts is that others hear it as fact and soon there is a web of misinformation. You are spreading something you heard somewhere that sounded like something you wanted to believe. It became fact for you. No research, no validation, no facts or data to support it or you would have gladly provided it when asked. 

 

And sorry, the entire ' data is only as good as who is entering them" is a cop out. Once you get to where you are willing to question any piece of data that does not fit your narrative no matter where it comes from (I look to the US Gov and scientific sources, not CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc) then you are free to create your own reality. That is where you get to proclaim you have an "opinion" but then frame it as fact - with the out later that you can say "Well I just said I firmly believe" to get you out of actually supporting that position. 

 

Leave, stay, post, don't post, that is obviously all up to you. But don't expect to throw some sort of "opinion" or "firm belief" out there, with a question attached to it (When are we going to address the elephant in the room?) with no data to support and not get called out on it. 

I'm not thin-skinned, just lazy😁

I don't care enough to spend time perusing the internet to justify anything. 

I know that you didn't attack me and, if you did,  I'm okay with that.

If my posts cause people call me out,  great!   If posts cause people to react with thoughtful posts of their own, that's great too!

I just don't take this message board stuff as seriously as others.  

 

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It’s easier to blame poor people crossing the border than admit that people who share your political opinions (and lack of interest in fact finding) are the ones causing the current wave of the pandemic. 
 

Can’t be the millions of dumb assholes in this country who take pride in anti-social behavior. It’s the darn brown people. 
 

🤡🤡🤡

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1 minute ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

I'm not thin-skinned, just lazy😁

I don't care enough to spend time perusing the internet to justify anything. 

If my posts cause people call me out,  great!   If posts cause people to react with thoughtful posts of their own, that's great too!

I just don't take this message board stuff as seriously as others.  

 

 

You are missing the point. It's not that people take it more or less serious. But if you make a statement you should be able to support it. I don't care so much what you say here but I do care what you carry with you to circles that do not question. What I do take serious is the spread of misinformation. And to be fair we all do it sometimes. But you being "lazy" could literally cost someone's life. If you think that is being overly dramatic then you really do not understand the seriousness of Covid. 

 

Take the time to get fully educated before forming that opinion. The time is well worth it. I hope you find that time. The life you save may be your own - I mean that from a Covid/illness standpoint. 

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46 minutes ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

 

 

Geez!

I stated my lack of agenda, in the hope of trying to avoid these types of replies. I should've known better.😂😂

 

 

To be fair, it's almost impossible for anyone to have absolutely no "agenda", whether left, right or center...assuming that word is taken to mean some pre-existing belief or ideology that they're willing to introduce into a discussion.

 

Pretty much everyone has some sort of belief system or agenda, but where the variations occur is in how objectively they're willing to view those beliefs and whether or not they're willing to change or at least reexamine them when given new facts or evidence.

 

So honestly, whenever I see someone start off with "I have no agenda" it doesn't sit all that well because it usually means almost exactly the opposite, but the person is trying to feign being "unbiased" in order to add some sort of preemptive credibility to the agenda they almost always end up pushing.

 

As @goskins10noted, it's absolutely ok to have an agenda. It's just nice to see a person back it up with what the evidence for their agenda is.

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1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

You are missing the point. It's not that people take it more or less serious. But if you make a statement you should be able to support it. I don't care so much what you say here but I do care what you carry with you to circles that do not question. What I do take serious is the spread of misinformation. And to be fair we all do it sometimes. But you being "lazy" could literally cost someone's life. If you think that is being overly dramatic then you really do not understand the seriousness of Covid. 

 

Take the time to get fully educated before forming that opinion. The time is well worth it. I hope you find that time. The life you save may be your own - I mean that from a Covid/illness standpoint. 

My circles are bright enough to think for themselves.

I stated in my OP that we're fully vaccinated and wear masks, so I'm not sure that I understand the "life you save may be your own" statement, but, it's all good.  I respect your opinion and  enjoy the dialogue in this thread. I usually lurk in it, and rarely post. Now I know why😎

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

To be fair, it's almost impossible for anyone to have absolutely no "agenda", whether left, right or center...assuming that word is taken to mean some pre-existing belief or ideology that they're willing to introduce into a discussion.

 

Pretty much everyone has some sort of belief system or agenda, but where the variations occur is in how objectively they're willing to view those beliefs and whether or not they're willing to change or at least reexamine them when given new facts or evidence.

 

So honestly, whenever I see someone start off with "I have no agenda" it doesn't sit all that well because it usually means almost exactly the opposite, but the person is trying to feign being "unbiased" in order to add some sort of preemptive credibility to the agenda they almost always end up pushing.

 

As @goskins10noted, it's absolutely ok to have an agenda. It's just nice to see a person back it up with what the evidence for their agenda is.

Understood.

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9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

At this point, I think the 25,000 people that died of Covid in July in the US made us stronger as a species. 

 

And slightly increased the "percent of total population vaccinated" statistic.  

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For the border argument.  This is older but I think talks of concerns that skinsfan mentioned: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1259282

 

The issue I think that is presented is that they can’t be held for quarantine so they are released and continue to travel to their destinations through public transportation as the article mentions.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt we have much contact tracing available in these situations to determine what sort of overall effect it’s having but to say it’s not having an effect is ignoring one problem that will continue to be a problem if we don’t account for it (ie vaccinations requirements for non citizens, quarantining, etc)

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say what you what, i'll give skinsfan1311 for taking reasonable but hard blowback from several posters while maintaining a friendly 'we're all es'ers'  attitude

 

you don't often see that when that happens anymore

 

and just fyi skinsfan, i suspect part of that reaction was you or  anyone simply dropping a 'border crossing/immigrant crisis' matter in the thread (even tho i get how you felt it connected) as maybe someone who especially had that issue 'as an agenda'....it's a hot topic all on its own...but you never went near full-on frothing mode (happens sometimes here, esp the last 5 years) and ya held onto your comportment and that's cool :) 

 

that said, this is a forum where serious topic threads are populated with a lot of very above-average participants who routinely make having informed debate on a variety of complex topics (and on more than political matters) as much a part of their day as talking football and other fun stuff...we even have a dozen or so adults in here :) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, KAOSkins said:

Is that correlating deviant (or whatever the non-made up mathematical term is) of "if we didn't test so much, the numbers wouldn't be so high?"

 

Nah.  

 

It's "there's two ways to increase the "percent of total population that's vaccinated" statistic.  

 

1)  Increase the number of vaccinated.  

2)  Decrease the total population (without decreasing the number of vaccinated.)  

 

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1 hour ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

I'm not thin-skinned, just lazy😁

I don't care enough to spend time perusing the internet to justify anything. 

I know that you didn't attack me and, if you did,  I'm okay with that.

If my posts cause people call me out,  great!   If posts cause people to react with thoughtful posts of their own, that's great too!

I just don't take this message board stuff as seriously as others.  

 

 

You're not doing this right!  

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27 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

Unfortunately, I doubt we have much contact tracing available in these situations to determine what sort of overall effect it’s having but to say it’s not having an effect is ignoring one problem that will continue to be a problem if we don’t account for it (ie vaccinations requirements for non citizens, quarantining, etc)

 

I don't see anybody saying that it's having zero effect.  

 

OTOH, I see a lot of people trying to take discussions (and message board threads) about Covid, and responding with "let's talk about them immigrants."  

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48 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I don't see anybody saying that it's having zero effect.  

 

OTOH, I see a lot of people trying to take discussions (and message board threads) about Covid, and responding with "let's talk about them immigrants."  

I see your point but it can also be the other way where you see people not talking about it and say- “let’s talk about x or y or z”.  Just because it’s brought up doesn't mean it’s the only thing but is still worth calling out if it’s truly an open discussion and something that is having an effect unless we just want to ignore certain areas and only talk of select few.

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15 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

I see your point but it can also be the other way where you see people not talking about it and say- “let’s talk about x or y or z”.  Just because it’s brought up doesn't mean it’s the only thing but is still worth calling out if it’s truly an open discussion and something that is having an effect unless we just want to ignore certain areas and only talk of select few.


Depends on how it’s “called out”. 
 

“Does anyone think immigrants crossing the border unchecked is a COVID problem?” will tend to foster discussion on the topic.

 

”Why is everyone conveniently ignoring something that I believe is true but did no research on?” will tend to have the opposite effect.

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People just simply don't understand and don't wanna understand how viruses and vaccines work.  The idea that a vaccine isn't 100% effective in preventing someone from catching something means it "doesn't work".  That's those people that complain that vaccinated people are still catching covid.  They don't care about rates and hospitalizations or any of that.  The fact that you can even get it means the vaccine is worthless.  That's what we're up against. 

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