How to fix the Democratic Party

[TheGreatBuzz]

34 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I believe you are underestimating what those first couple months are like, especially if one or both parents have to go back to work. 

 

Well I don't have personal experience with this so I will acknowledge that.  But this goes back to proper planning.  And yes, I get accidents happen.  But that goes back, at least partly, to an education issue.  And accidents should be the exception, not the rule.

 

37 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

is the rest of the developed world is ahead of us on this, if so many other countries can figure this out, why can't we?

 

I've never been much of a fan of "well other countries......." arguments.  The US is so unique that I think it becomes an apple and oranges argument.  But I'm not saying we can't figure it out, I'm saying I don't agree with the current proposals.

[The Evil Genius]

I would say Buzz, by nature (as in, because that's when people are most fertile and active), most people have kids when they can least afford it - when they are young and in their 20s and early 30s. Not sure anything can be done about that. 

 

Also as a fellow DINK, I have no problems with paid family leave and think it should be expanded. I just wish I could get the same for my own personal use. 😆

Edited November 5, 2021 by The Evil Genius

[The Evil Genius]

One might also argue that coming out of college without 100k+ in debt might make child expenses more affordable down the line. 

[Renegade7]

27 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Well I don't have personal experience with this so I will acknowledge that.  But this goes back to proper planning.  And yes, I get accidents happen.  But that goes back, at least partly, to an education issue.  And accidents should be the exception, not the rule.

 

Why do you keep coming back to this like this program is targeted towards people who aren't ready that didn't plan to have kids when they did?  PFL is targeted to people that want to have kids but don't feel they can afford to, a huge complaint of my generation.  You make this sound like a welfare queens situation.

 

27 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I've never been much of a fan of "well other countries......." arguments.  The US is so unique that I think it becomes an apple and oranges argument.  But I'm not saying we can't figure it out, I'm saying I don't agree with the current proposals.

 

When the rest of the world moves past you on things like education, universal health care, and paid family leave, the proper response shouldn't be American Exceptionalism.  To me, thats cop out to maintain status quo when status quo isn't working.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Renegade7

[TheGreatBuzz]

29 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Also as a fellow DINK, I have no problems with paid family leave and think it should be expanded. I just wish I could get the same for my own personal use. 😆

I would probably be more likely to support the program if there were some type of offset/benefit for those that don't have children.  Maybe a tax credit equal to what my pay would have been had I taken X weeks of parental leave?  Dunno, just pulled that one out of my ass.

 

18 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

One might also argue that coming out of college without 100k+ in debt might make child expenses more affordable down the line. 

One, yea the cost of college needs to be brought under control but that is for another thread.  Two, I think this also falls under planning.  If your debt (from college or whatever else) negativly affects you becoming a parent, then maybe hold off on becoming a parent for a bit.  Or work on otherwise improving your situation so that when becoming a parent, you are already in a position to maximize your quality as one.

 

22 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Why do you keep coming back to this like this program is targeted towards people who aren't ready that didn't plan to have kids when they did?  PFL is targeted to people that want to have kids but don't feel they can afford to, a huge complaint of my generation.  You make this sound like a welfare queens situation.

I didn't mean for it to sound that way and if it did, I apologize and would like to clarify it now.  My arguments are meant to include more than just welfare queens.

 

23 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

When the rest of the world moves past you on things like education, universal health care, and paid family leave, the proper response shouldn't be American Exceptionalism.  To me, thats cop out to maintain status quo when status quo isn't working.

And we have threads on those other topics which I have put my thoughts on over the last however many years.  And my response shouldn't be taken as American Exceptionalism.  Maybe American Uniqueness would be more appropriate?  But just because other countries are doing doesn't mean it is what I consider the right thing to do, for them or more importantly, for us.  After all, if all of the countries jumped off a bridge, I wouldn't suggest we did it too.  (See what I did there?) 

[tshile]

Yeah I’ve changed my mind watching this argument unfold. 
 

everyone, of means, is paying taxes for things they don’t want. I think our military budget is nonsense. There’s tons of things being done a way I don’t think they should be, or to benefit people that aren’t me, etc. 

 

society needs kids. 
 

you have two incomes and no dependents. 
 

And all of these benefits are available to you if you change your mind and have kids. You choose not to. Good for you, but your stance doesn’t align with what’s good for society. 
 

and it’s not a planning thing. The rest of us don’t want someone to have to plan to not have a job for 3-12 months just to have a kid; or to plan to not know if their job will be there when they can go back. That’s not a planning thing it’s a decency thing 

 

and it’s cute to say it doesn’t matter if other countries do it, and take about jumping off bridges, but those other countries that do it have significantly better metrics around things related to it than we do. And there’s research to back up the links between them all. And we need to be doing better in these categories. 
 

I was trying to be nice and have sympathy for people like you. But watching this argument unfold… ultimately most of your rationale for your stance is bad. 

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I would probably be more likely to support the program if there were some type of offset/benefit for those that don't have children.  Maybe a tax credit equal to what my pay would have been had I taken X weeks of parental leave?  Dunno, just pulled that one out of my ass.

 

You are trying too hard to make this "fair" to you instead of the people its targeted to.

 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

One, yea the cost of college needs to be brought under control but that is for another thread.  Two, I think this also falls under planning.  If your debt (from college or whatever else) negativly affects you becoming a parent, then maybe hold off on becoming a parent for a bit.  Or work on otherwise improving your situation so that when becoming a parent, you are already in a position to maximize your quality as one.

 

I have 6 figures in student loan debt. Are tou suggesting I should've waited until I paid it off first before having my daughter?  Completely underestimating the student loan crisis.

 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I didn't mean for it to sound that way and if it did, I apologize and would like to clarify it now.  My arguments are meant to include more than just welfare queens.

 

Its all good. Same time, this isnt the first time I've heard a conservative dislike a social safety net program because of possibly being taken advantage of and it won't be the last.  Why don't we drug test everyone applying for paid family leave while we're at it, just in case 😒

 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

And we have threads on those other topics which I have put my thoughts on over the last however many years.  And my response shouldn't be taken as American Exceptionalism.  Maybe American Uniqueness would be more appropriate? 

 

Tomatoe tomAtoe, Buzz

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

But just because other countries are doing doesn't mean it is what I consider the right thing to do, for them or more importantly, for us.  After all, if all of the countries jumped off a bridge, I wouldn't suggest we did it too.  (See what I did there?) 

 

This is really weak comparing something like paid family leave to jumping off a bridge because others are.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

31 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yeah I’ve changed my mind watching this argument unfold. 
 

everyone, of means, is paying taxes for things they don’t want. I think our military budget is nonsense. There’s tons of things being done a way I don’t think they should be, or to benefit people that aren’t me, etc. 

 

society needs kids. 
 

you have two incomes and no dependents. 
 

And all of these benefits are available to you if you change your mind and have kids. You choose not to. Good for you, but your stance doesn’t align with what’s good for society. 
 

and it’s not a planning thing. The rest of us don’t want someone to have to plan to not have a job for 3-12 months just to have a kid; or to plan to not know if their job will be there when they can go back. That’s not a planning thing it’s a decency thing 

 

and it’s cute to say it doesn’t matter if other countries do it, and take about jumping off bridges, but those other countries that do it have significantly better metrics around things related to it than we do. And there’s research to back up the links between them all. And we need to be doing better in these categories. 
 

I was trying to be nice and have sympathy for people like you. But watching this argument unfold… ultimately most of your rationale for your stance is bad. 

 

I honestly hadn't expected this conversation going on this long regarding this one issue otherwise I would make a more in-depth argument with other points and probably some stats.  But at the end of the day, this also isn't a topic I really care that much about.  I am against many of the proposals in their current form.  However, my level of caring is probably low enough that it would never even affect the way I vote.  Yes, I have an opinion on it but it is pretty small potatoes to me.  Much more important issues to address.  I'm just tired of getting the ****ty end of the stick because I don't have children.

 

Oh (and this ties to the american uniqueness I mentioned above), and I think you have a point on military spending as well as many other government budgets.  I think it should be scaled way back.  And those funds could be instead spent elsewhere.  But that would also require us to be comfortable with not being the world police (over generalization I know but you get my point) going forward and accept the things that come with that.

 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

You are trying too hard to make this "fair" to you instead of the people its targeted to.

 

So your point is that it shouldn't matter if it is fair to me because it isn't meant to be fair to me?

 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

have 6 figures in student loan debt. Are tou suggesting I should've waited until I paid it off first before having my daughter?  Completely underestimating the student loan crisis.

 

No.  Note I said, and have repeatedly said in the past, that college costs need to be gotten under control.  And I never said you should have it paid off.  I said you should have it under control, just like the rest of your finances, before deciding to procreate.  

 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Its all good. Same time, this isnt the first time I've heard a conservative dislike a social safety net program because of possibly being taken advantage of and it won't be the last.  Why don't we drug test everyone applying for paid family leave while we're at it, just in case 😒

 

I don't believe I made "being taken advantage of" in that context as one of my points.

 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This is really weak comparing something like paid family leave to jumping off a bridge because others are.  

 

So is saying we should do it because other countries are doing it.  Hence the "jumping off a bridge" comment.  It is often the parental retort to the justification of a child wanting to do something just because all of his/her friends are doing it.

 

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Tomatoe tomAtoe, Buzz

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

 

I'm going to be 100% honest and admit I don't have time to read that nor the desire to.  

 

Anyways, I have work to do.  I'll check back in a little while.

Edited November 5, 2021 by TheGreatBuzz

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

So your point is that it shouldn't matter if it is fair to me because it isn't meant to be fair to me?

 

No, you are trying to negotiate it down despite evidence presented to why it started at 12 weeks and no intent to have experience with what that 12 weeks is like.  It seems like the fair we are talking about is cost from a taxpayer perspective, not whats best or fair for families trying to have kids.  Of all the things our government "wastes money on" this is a hill you want to die on?

 

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

No.  Note I said, and have repeatedly said in the past, that college costs need to be gotten under control.  And I never said you should have it paid off.  I said you should have it under control, just like the rest of your finances, before deciding to procreate.  

 

Once this COVID suspension is over, folks will have to go back to making payments whether they can afford them or not.  Thats a huge chunk of money coming out that could be going to something also stupidly expensive like childcare.

 

A lot of people have accepted that they only pay enough on it to not have their paychecks deducted and will never be able to pay it off completely. There is no "getting it under control" for them.

 

We are playing with fire as a society allowing this many factors against having kids to rise up in this and future generations. Millenials need help, not pull yourself up by your bootstraps talk.

 

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I don't believe I made "being taken advantage of" in that context as one of my points.

 

Then why do you keep bringing up accidents and not planning as part of your uncomfortability with 12 weeks paid family leave?

 

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

So is saying we should do it because other countries are doing it.  Hence the "jumping off a bridge" comment.  It is often the parental retort to the justification of a child wanting to do something just because all of his/her friends are doing it.

 

No, thats what's thrown in our face when we see other countries doing something that makes sense and we should also be doing as well, reasonable demands as fellow tax payers.  Saying other countries are doing it is in context that its already being done and there are working example to reference to  and tweek here if need be.  

 

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I'm going to be 100% honest and admit I don't have time to read that nor the desire to.  

 

Anyways, I have work to do.  I'll check back in a little while.

 

Of course not.

[TheGreatBuzz]

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Of all the things our government "wastes money on" this is a hill you want to die on?

Considering I said it all actually is not really THAT important to me, I would say no, this topic is not the hill I want to die on.

 

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Once this COVID suspension is over, folks will have to go back to making payments whether they can afford them or not.  Thats a huge chunk of money coming out that could be going to something also stupidly expensive like childcare.

Then let’s go to the thread about fixing the cost of college thread.  Paid family leave is not a solution to that problem.  And if your finances are that tight, maybe it is not the right time to have a child.

 

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Then why do you keep bringing up accidents and not planning as part of your uncomfortability with 12 weeks paid family leave?

Because I figured accidents would be the response to me saying people should plan better.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by TheGreatBuzz

[PartyPosse]

Can we for once not have a pedo in office?

[China]

GOP Megadonor Announces Plans to Fundraise for Joe Manchin

 

Sen. Joe Manchin’s efforts to winnow down key parts of Joe Biden’s agenda appear to have earned him clout with a like-minded constituency: Republican billionaires.

 

In a Wednesday morning interview with CNBC, Home Depot co-founder Ken Langone said that he plans to raise money for the West Virginia Democrat’s 2024 reelection campaign.

 

“I’m going to have one of the biggest fundraisers I’ve ever had for him,” Langone told CNBC. “He’s special. He’s precious. He’s a great American.”

 

Langone is one of the GOP’s most prominent rainmakers, famous for pouring money into Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, he has also contributed to some Democrats in the past, including former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (N.Y.).

 

Manchin’s campaign and Senate office did not respond to requests for comment.

 

Manchin has also received public praise from Nelson Peltz, a billionaire investor, who previously hosted fundraisers for Donald Trump in his Florida home.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[China]

Cornyn says he 'would be surprised' if GOP tries to unseat Sinema in 2024

 

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said he "would be surprised if Republicans tried to unseat" Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) when she comes up for reelection in 2024, according to Politico.

Politico added that Senate Minority Whip John Thune (R-S.D.) has repeatedly asked Sinema to join the GOP.

 

But later on Wednesday, the Texas senator seemed to soften his stance. 

 

“I probably got out over my skis a little bit…what I was thinking about was the fact that she enjoys pretty favorable ratings among Republicans in her state,” Cornyn said, according to a tweet from NBC's Frank Thorp.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[visionary]

 

I haven’t been paying attention to political news much, but what the hell is going on?

 

 

[@DCGoldPants]

Dems have no clear message and it can be felt. Biden is fine, but not great. He's just kind of there. Harris is invisible. Dem leadership on the hill is old and uneffective. Even with the infrastructure stuff. They are going to get lapped by GOPers taking credit for **** they voted against. Watch.

 

 

[The Sisko]

On 11/4/2021 at 8:45 AM, Jabbyrwock said:

I don't look at it from the perspective of the workers involved. Rather, to me, its about the child.  Secure attachment, to both parents, has been clearly shown to be beneficial later in life, and lack of any attachment hugely detrimental.  Just like we group invest to ensure all children have access to education in their formative years, I think all of us chipping in together to make sure a strong bond between parents and children exists from the get go is a worthwhile investment.

Funny how the so called right to life party loves to twist arms to get babies born but then fight for them to be neglected once they're here. But then that is what Jesus would do, so I guess it's a principled stance.

 

On 11/4/2021 at 7:33 PM, Hersh said:

 

Maybe this topic would be better in it's own thread, but I've reached the point where I think this country should split in two. I don't see the GOP ever coming back from where they are now.

They wanted out in the civil war but now they'd never allow it. Someone's got to pay for their "freedom" and guess who's on the hook? Blue states.

 

On 11/5/2021 at 10:08 AM, TheGreatBuzz said:

...And remember that people who decide not to have children already pay for many things related to raising productive members of society.  As for this proposal, I think doing the paid portion of the leave as a no-interest, government-backed loan to cover your pay check while you take FMLA could be a potential compromise solution.  But, as a general statement not only directed at paid parental leave, I'm tired of paying for things for people who either failed to plan properly or didn't take necessary precautions.   

I think there's something that's been left out of this discussion, namely that paid family leave isn't only for people that had a baby. It's also about those of use that save other taxpayers thousands of dollars every year by taking care of our elderly family members at home, at the expense of our own careers, backs, knees, etc. Additionally, we also saved you a bunch of money by adopting a daughter. Had she continued on the trajectory the devil's system had her on, it would have cost a hell of a lot of money to the taxpayer not only to keep her in a group home until she was 18, but also the costs to deal with all of the stuff that invariably happens to those kids when they age out, i.e. prison, homelessness, poverty, mental health issues, etc. OTOH, I suppose you're right, that my mother-in-law should have planned to not have dementia and our daughter should have had the forethought to choose better biological parents to be born to.

 

Please forgive the snark. It's not you personally. I'm just pretty tired of the personal responsibility trope that gets trotted out mostly by people being used by the wealthy to keep their taxes low while the ones caping for them are suffering.

Edited November 18, 2021 by The Sisko

[PartyPosse]

The dems have shot themselves in the foot time and time again me it’s almost a forgone conclusion that if Trump runs in 2024, he’ll probably win. 

[NoCalMike]

Very simple: Pass the legislation you campaign on. 

[The Sisko]

20 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Very simple: Pass the legislation you campaign on. 

Easier said than done when your representatives aren't ready to Seig Heil every time the party or Der Fuhrer says the sky is red or up is down. Dems are still trying to do things like it's business as usual. That's why I had little hope for Biden to be able to do anything of consequence. He was all about restoring the status quo instead of making structural changes to the system. "Hey, look people that hate us. We sent you some money and jobs. We know that's never made a difference in getting your support because all you care about is white supremacy, but we're going to keep doing it anyway."🙄

 

I never took Biden's election as anything other than a reprieve from the gallows for Democracy, not a full on rescue. We're still making preparations to get permanent residency in another country. I'd suggest y'all do the same.

[NoCalMike]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

Easier said than done when your representatives aren't ready to Seig Heil every time the party or Der Fuhrer says the sky is red or up is down. Dems are still trying to do things like it's business as usual. That's why I had little hope for Biden to be able to do anything of consequence. He was all about restoring the status quo instead of making structural changes to the system. "Hey, look people that hate us. We sent you some money and jobs. We know that's never made a difference in getting your support because all you care about is white supremacy, but we're going to keep doing it anyway."🙄

 

I never took Biden's election as anything other than a reprieve from the gallows for Democracy, not a full on rescue. We're still making preparations to get permanent residency in another country. I'd suggest y'all do the same.

 

Don't really disagree with any of that, I was just making the general point that the policy Democrats run on is usually popular and aligned with the majority of Americans, and following through with what they campaign on would probably help.

[Hersh]

23 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Very simple: Pass the legislation you campaign on. 

 

Then spend next year repeating over and over again everything in the bill. Every item should be in ads, Democrats voted for X, Republicans voted against it. Really localize it in every single Congressional district. Even deep red moron districts. Let them know. 

[@DCGoldPants]

I'd vote for Biden again 100 out 100 times, but I'm not liking the job he's doing so far. Infrastructure. Great job. We knew once it got through, that opponents of it would start taking credit because voters want to see their communities upgraded and fixed.

 

Everything else? Come on man. Get mad. Do something. We know you have two Dem Senators who will not help you get voter protection passed. So..... I'm asking. What can Biden do on the edges of this without Congress? What kind of Executive Orders? How can anything that looks like supressing votes in an election that sends anyone to Washington be considered a crime with serious punishment? I also require states to opt in or out for big funding and projects to their states if they are going to receive what a lot of GOP elected officals will take credit for. Slap my name on all that **** more than Trump would. 

 

If I'm Biden, I'm not thinking of running for a 2nd term. I'm also not announcing it. But knowing that I'm not running again, or worried about polling. I look to take all the heat that would directed at Dems. I don't worry about the high road. I look to put GOP leaders in the worst situations over and over and over again, and then openly called them out for always being in those situations. Be an asshole. it's ok. We know you aren't being one to citizens or media. 

[bearrock]

Realistically, I think US needs more parties.  At least 3, but ideally more to represent a broader spectrum of the political divide that would give parties some breathing room to compromise and work together on specific legislative priorities.

[tshile]

Ranked choice voting!!!

 

the only reasonable path away from extremism running 2 parties. 

[Larry]

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

Ranked choice voting!!!

 

the only reasonable path away from extremism running 2 parties. 

 

 

Proportional voting.