Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Chicago and Dallas and Las Vegas all on Russell Wilson's list but not his hometown team.  We have fallen far.  Kind of reminds me of the Carmelo Anthony situation where consideration for his wife's career led him to waste his prime on a crap team in New York.

His wife is from Texas and Chicago and Vegas are undoubtedly better and more fun cities to live in than Washington D.C.

 

Plus Wilson cares a ton about his personal brand and its harder to build that brand up when you're playing on a team with literally no name.

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

And I'll add its not even just raw rushing totals for me...its escapability within the pocket and being able to extend plays and go off script at minimum.  Actual rushing ability beyond the line of scrimmage is a bonus, but at least be able to work that pocket for me.

 

The other end of the spectrum is a guy like Jalen Hurts.  He's a terrific scrambler and does all you want in that department, but he can't really support a high level passing game.  He's too inaccurate and struggles reading defenses.  Lamar falls short on some of this stuff too but his athleticism and pure rushing ability are off the charts and provide adequate compensation to beat  back his short comings.  Hurts does not have that kind of ability.

 

You really need some combination of traits if you're going to make it as a starting NFL qb.  

Honestly I think one of the biggest things for me is hard work. Its what drew Haskins out of my support system. Its why I rooted for guys like Gus over Heath or Campbell over Colt or a bunch of other stories. We know Brady has the hard work. And if we are to look at Jones's picture, its not an ode to hard work. Maybe its we shouldn't be expecting every QB to have a six pack and muscles everywhere, but do we really expect a dough boy to be our next QB? He doesn't look like a guy who lives football to me. Maybe thats just short sided, but thats not a picture I'd want to see and think "he's our next QB". 

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

I don't know if this is even possible to do this year and suppose they could do something similar maybe using a guy like Scherff (tag/trade) but interesting.

 

 

 

After Mahomes, Watson, Allen, and kinda Baker hit in '17 and '18, and Kyler, Burrow and Herbert hit in '19 and '20, following uneven at best, horrible at worst QB production from the '12-'16 classes barring Luck, and Wilson, I just don't think that's possible. If you want to move up from outside the blue chip zone and the second tier zone, that's just not gonna cut it. I think any franchise that thinks of themselves as holding draft capital that can get a top 4 guy this year, is going to want the sun and moon to move out as low as 19. That's why my offers always included Chase Young, which I know isn't happening. I dont think you can make it inside the top 5 without Young, and if you aren't offering Young, it's gonna be 3+ firsts type nightmare again. 

[mistertim]

8 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I'm just providing data, what your eyes reveal may be different than the numbers show. I see offenses that called for a ton more rollouts than what Alabama runs. Jones didn't need to add mobility to his game whatsoever, his line blocked fantastic for him all season, and when he did get pressured, he moved around the pocket with ease. Why run around like a chicken with your head cut off if you can make the throws and deliver them to open receivers? I think you might be underestimating his athletic ability a touch though. 

 

You can't sit here and tell me that if Tom Brady came into the league in 2021 that he wouldn't be successful because he isn't mobile, I will argue against that every single time. Mobility is nothing but a plus, it is not a trait that a QB HAS to have and never will be for the quarterback position. It definitely helps buy time in the pocket but sometimes mobility can also lead to QBs taking a ton of unnecessary sacks because sometimes they want to play hero ball and avoid the pocket. That's a completely different topic though.

 

I think all we're seeing QBs groomed to be faster now, and more of them coming out are focusing on foot-speed than they used to, I just see it as a trend. It's a positive trend though, but it doesn't mean Mac Jones won't succeed in the NFL. 

 

Let's not bring Brady into this please. He's a complete outlier in the modern NFL and it's because he's literally the greatest to QB to ever play the game. The only other elite QB right now who is a pure pocket passer and not very mobile is Brees. But he's also a future 1st ballot HoFer and another one of the best to play the game (about about to retire). The other elite QBs in the league have mobility, the ability to make off-schedule throws, etc. 

 

As far as Mac Jones, he has a few strikes against him for the modern day NFL. He doesn't have much mobility at all, he's not very good at making off schedule plays, and he has a pretty weak arm. He has some good traits: very accurate in the short an intermediate (accuracy isn't bad on deep throws but his arm strength puts limitations on it), very good footwork and mechanics, seems to scan the field pretty well and go through progressions well.

 

But as a 1st round pick, having the latter traits may not be enough to make up for completely lacking in the former ones.

Edited February 26, 2021 by mistertim

[Going Commando]

43 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

His wife is from Texas and Chicago and Vegas are undoubtedly better and more fun cities to live in than Washington D.C.

 

Plus Wilson cares a ton about his personal brand and its harder to build that brand up when you're playing on a team with literally no name.

 

If he actually wants to chase Brady, then he'll go where the roster is right, not where it's fun to live or where his wife wants to be.

[Jericho]

On 2/24/2021 at 6:06 PM, kingdaddy said:

I saw a report today that Atlanta is doing due diligence on every QB as a possible smoke screen to make other teams think they're going QB when they likely are going offensive line. They have no line whatsoever according to the report and they are gonna roll with Ryan for now while he's under that massive contract that can't be moved. Based on this article I believe Atlanta will be willing to trade back for more picks. Who knows?

Be careful of what you read online. Atlanta's entire offensive line in 2020 were former first rounders. All five guys. Doesn't necessarily mean they are all good or will even be back in 2021. Nor does it preclude them from drafting another one. But it's not exactly need number one.

[skinny21]

5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

If he actually wants to chase Brady, then he'll go where the roster is right, not where it's fun to live or where his wife wants to be.

Yeah, who knows how Russ views the WFT roster, but I think that PFF guy from the last page was spot on - this is a good landing spot for Wilson.  Of course, we need receiver help, but I don’t see that as much of a hurdle as we should be able to land at least a pretty good starting receiver in FA (and McLaurin, Thomas and Gibson/McKissick are really nice pieces to work with).  Pretty solid oline and a good D (that’s not far from being a great), coupled with a positive coaching staff.  Dan Snyder though... he’s a heck of an anchor, and maybe more so to a guy that rooted for this team.

On a related note, I wonder how much making the playoffs and the game against the Bucs might have changed the perception of the team (unfortunate that our vaunted D got demolished though).

[markmills67]

The Cowboys will get Wilson, then we will no doubt break the bank to get Prescott. 

[Conn]

Fellas please see reason I beg you. There’s still time 

 

 

[Darth Tater]

Thing is, Baker threw only one more TD than ints in year 2. Many Cleveland watchers thought maybe he was another in new Cleveland's long line of QB busts.

[86 Snyder]

3 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Fellas please see reason I beg you. There’s still time 

 

 

 

OMG it gets worse...he really is Varsity Blues 

 

[Busch1724]

Wilson isn't getting traded. Seattle would take on something like a 58 million dollar cap hit. He's staying put unless he redoes his deal quickly,. The team won't do that because they'd have to convert some non-guaranteed salary to guaranteed to lower his cap hit. They'll sit on him if anything like the Texans appear to be willing to do. 

[ODU AGGIE]

10 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

His first read is always open, clean pocket every throw, isn't mobile, can't play off schedule.  He throws a nice ball, that's it.  He's not a leader, zero presence off the field.  This look like a good NFL quarterback to you?  It's not Varsity Blues FFS.

 

 

Looks like Sonny Jurgensen to me.

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah, this is not a good stat. Baker Mayfield had 1082 rushing yards in college. Josh Allen had 767. Running was clearly a part of their game. And it helped them in their development as a QB, we've noted on Allen how he was different from Haskins for just this ability, he could and would run for the first down so many times in games where he didn't think he could make the throw. Not everybody needs to be Cam Newton or Michael Vick to be a good QB but Jones has 42 yards 0.8 yards per attempt. Thats not something I want to build around. It'd be different if his other metrics were off the charts or something but we're talking about a guy at Ala freakin Bama who had the Heisman Trophy winner as his number 1 target, who received over half of the passes from Jones, and as accurate as Jones is, its not like he has a Stafford arm or even a Haskins arm. So really what does he have? Weight room? nah? Film study? I mean he only has 556 attempts so he doesn't have the experience seeing a lot of different defenses, particularly facing the same players or coach a second time after having watched them adjust to him. So I don't see what the big deal with him is. Maybe he'd be somebody I'd look at in the 3rd or 4th, but why is he any better than Greg McElroy? 

 

 

Maybe it wasn't the best point, Baker Mayfield doesn't even average 10 rushing yards a game in the NFL. It all really depends on the offense they're in. 

 

I'm not advocating for Mac Jones, I'm just saying strict pocket passers are still going to come into the NFL and be successful. Ben Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rivers are old as **** or all but retired, they were just recently successful though. 

 

Knocking on Jones because of the talent he was surrounded by is a weak argument. Always will be. I really don't want to dive further into this but I'll say Jones has NFL accuracy compared to McElroy and that was noticeable from game 1.

 

McElroy only threw 20 TDs at Alabama his senior season. Yet, let's compare him to someone who threw for 41 TDs. They aren't even close to the same player dude. There's no way McElroy could make the throws Jones did last season. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Chump Bailey]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Ronnie Perkins is someone I can regularly get in R3 or 4 as a DE. But there's some big boards that have him going late 1st / early 2nd. So again, you can pretty much choose whatever simulator you want to get the results you seek. I have just found the functionality and quality of draft boards on TDN to be the best, with the exception of Trey Lance falling.

 

Seeing where Ronnie goes will be most interesting for me. Putting my junior GM cap on, Ronnie, Oweh and Tryon are in a separate tier apart from the others among a very deep group. Not night and day but IMO these guys have elite projection potential. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Let's not bring Brady into this please. He's a complete outlier in the modern NFL and it's because he's literally the greatest to QB to ever play the game. The only other elite QB right now who is a pure pocket passer and not very mobile is Brees. But he's also a future 1st ballot HoFer and another one of the best to play the game (about about to retire). The other elite QBs in the league have mobility, the ability to make off-schedule throws, etc. 

 

As far as Mac Jones, he has a few strikes against him for the modern day NFL. He doesn't have much mobility at all, he's not very good at making off schedule plays, and he has a pretty weak arm. He has some good traits: very accurate in the short an intermediate (accuracy isn't bad on deep throws but his arm strength puts limitations on it), very good footwork and mechanics, seems to scan the field pretty well and go through progressions well.

 

But as a 1st round pick, having the latter traits may not be enough to make up for completely lacking in the former ones.

Okay then I'll go with Kirk Cousins, Matt Ryan, Phil Rivers,  Jimmy G, Jared Goff. None of them are hall of famers but they've had what you could call successful careers without being the most mobile QBs. Still doing it through the 2020-2021 season.

 

I mean I think it's hard for a pocket passers to become an elite QB, your chances drop off significantly if you don't have the correct velocity, spin on the football, and of course mobility. 

 

I dont love him but if Chris Simms said he's a top 10 prospect I'm going to listen based off of his track record and put some serious weight on that. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Maybe it wasn't the best point, Baker Mayfield doesn't even average 10 rushing yards a game in the NFL. It all really depends on the offense they're in. 

 

I'm not advocating for Mac Jones, I'm just saying strict pocket passers are still going to come into the NFL and be successful still. Ben Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rivers are old as **** or all but retired, they were just recently successful though. 

 

Knocking on Jones because of the talent he was surrounded by is a weak argument. Always will be. I really don't want to dive further into this but I'll say Jones has NFL accuracy compared to McElroy and that was noticeable from game 1.

 

I love how people bring up Greg McElroy and compare him to Mac Jones. McElroy only threw 20 TDs at Alabama his senior season. Yet, let's compare him to someone who threw for 41 TDs. They aren't even close to the same player dude. There's no way McElroy could make the throws Jones did last season. 

McElroy isn't a good comparison to Jones except for experience (or lack of it). I've been saying that Jones is nothing but this year's version of Haskins to me and that's not a reason to hate him but just like I didn't want to trade up for Haskins (didn't mind staying where we were and picking him), I don't want to trade up for Jones. But this year is different from 2019 since we have Allen and Heinekin who look like better guys at the healm than an injured Smith, Colt and Case. So QB is not the pressing need it was in 2019. I just think Jones is a 2nd or third round pick. If he's there cool, we can take a shot on him. But what about him makes him a top tier QB? an elite arm? haven't heard that? Accuracy? I've heard he has it, but nothing spectacular? Intelligence? Haven't heard that one either and he seems to depend on Smith a lot. Work ethic? Not judging by that picture? So what is it? 

 

Maybe Jones can be a Sam Bradford without the arm, but he was injured a heck of a lot. Will he be another Winston? Well, he was a busted first overall pick. Who else was in college and looked like Jones? Will Grier? David Carr? Kirk Cousins? Tom Brady? 

 

I just don't see a lot of guys with his resume coming into the league and looking good. If you don't like McElroy, how about David Fales. What about Brandon Weeden? AJ McCarron? Cody Kessler? There have been a bunch of accurate QBs in college who were immobile and unable to adapt to the pros. And most of them were accurate over a longer period of time. Sure Jones has some hype about him right now, but I'm not convinced about him in any way. 

[RWJ]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've posted a ton on him on the draft thread, positive and negative.  More positive than negative. Relatively speaking I am pro Mac Jones since I wouldn't hate it if they drafted him.   He's hard to evaluate as I've said before because he gets bailed out on contested throws and his contested throw accuracy and attempts (as PFF charted) is mediocre and doesn't nearly match Burrow on that count.  But his accuracy with throws in the flat is laser sharp, almost perfect on that front, love how he manipulates safeties with his body language/eyes.  I think his footwork in the pocket as for navigating pressure is good.  My pause about him is he doesn't have any special traits -- arm strength is just OK, and he's not a make throws off script kind of guy either.

 

Mike Lombardi made a point recently about Mac is he might not last in the NFL because he looks like a rare college athlete who doesn't look like he likes to hit the weight room.  The picture that someone posted here of him with his shirt off brings that home to me.   Lombardi implied its not a good sign when an athlete doesn't like to work out.   Maybe if he hits the gym though he could improve his arm strength?  But yeah to me Lombardi is right, he doesn't look like a dude who lifts weights. 

 

I liked Tua in college but the Miami version definitely came off to me super conservative with the ball -- short stuff.   Darnold looked the same to me when I rewatched him recently.  And Alex we know doesn't push the ball down the field much.  Kirk had a crap defense and at times had no choice but to push the ball down the field.  Cam's numbers which were mediocre surprised me, I thought he'd be closer to the bottom.  Fitzpatrick, top 10.  Don't love Fitz but he's my fav of the FA options. 

SIP, respectfully I didn't respond back to you with criticism.  I don't believe you did as well.  I understand how you feel about Mac and you understand how I feel about Mac.  Yes, Mac is in for a somewhat rude awakening when he gets to the NFL.  RR and staff will school him on getting into shape, if they like him and are able to draft him.  Another team; another coaching staff it will be interesting to see how things play out.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Burgundy Yoda said:

Okay then I'll go with Kirk Cousins, Matt Ryan, Phil Rivers,  Jimmy G, Jared Goff. None of them are hall of famers but they've had what you could call successful years without being the most mobile QBs. Still doing it through the 2020-2021 season.

 

I mean I think it's hard for a pocket passers to become an elite QB, your chances drop off significantly if you don't have the correct velocity, spin on the football, and of course mobility. 

 

I dont love him but if Chris Simms said he's a top 10 prospect I'm going to listen based off of his track record and put some serious weight on that. 

Cousins had 1128 attempts in college. 

Ryan had 1347

Rivers had 1710

Jimmy G had 1668

Goff had 1568

 

Compare that to Jones and his measley 556. Not saying attempts is the end all be all, but for a pocket passer it seems like its a big part of them learning the game. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

McElroy isn't a good comparison to Jones except for experience (or lack of it). I've been saying that Jones is nothing but this year's version of Haskins to me and that's not a reason to hate him but just like I didn't want to trade up for Haskins (didn't mind staying where we were and picking him), I don't want to trade up for Jones. But this year is different from 2019 since we have Allen and Heinekin who look like better guys at the healm than an injured Smith, Colt and Case. So QB is not the pressing need it was in 2019. I just think Jones is a 2nd or third round pick. If he's there cool, we can take a shot on him. But what about him makes him a top tier QB? an elite arm? haven't heard that? Accuracy? I've heard he has it, but nothing spectacular? Intelligence? Haven't heard that one either and he seems to depend on Smith a lot. Work ethic? Not judging by that picture? So what is it? 

 

Maybe Jones can be a Sam Bradford without the arm, but he was injured a heck of a lot. Will he be another Winston? Well, he was a busted first overall pick. Who else was in college and looked like Jones? Will Grier? David Carr? Kirk Cousins? Tom Brady? 

 

I just don't see a lot of guys with his resume coming into the league and looking good. If you don't like McElroy, how about David Fales. What about Brandon Weeden? AJ McCarron? Cody Kessler? There have been a bunch of accurate QBs in college who were immobile and unable to adapt to the pros. And most of them were accurate over a longer period of time. Sure Jones has some hype about him right now, but I'm not convinced about him in any way. 

Haskins was a chump from the beginning, he would throw a screen passes to McLaurin or Campbell that would go for a 60-70 yard TD and get credit for the completion, touchdown, and yardage when all he did was throw it to a superstar behind the LOS. The very next play he'd throw to a wide open target 25 yards down the field with nobody around him, but the pass would be incredibly off target causing that WR to get tackled after 25 yards instead of it being a TD. That was what I saw with Haskins, wild inaccuracy. I saw a live arm, but accuracy that was off and a system that played to his strengths. There's probably a lot of minor things regular people that watch QBs aren't picking up on with Jones. Honestly, I couldn't even tell you what it was, it has to be intangibles, and some other trait that translates. 

 

I mean there's a few successful guys with Jones's skillset but they aren't superstars, they're just facilitators and they will always have their issues that prevent them from being an elite QB. If someone wants to make the argument that you can no longer be an elite QB in 2021, I wouldn't argue against it. My ceiling is I think good QBs can still come out that are pocket passers. 

 

None of those guys you're naming were considered 1st round prospects were they? I don't think they threw for 41 TDs and 4500 yards against an All-SEC schedule either. Consistency with production is huge, like sure, McElroy can make a few NFL style throws here and there but I can tell you that it wasn't nearly as consistent as Jones. 

33 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Cousins had 1128 attempts in college. 

Ryan had 1347

Rivers had 1710

Jimmy G had 1668

Goff had 1568

 

Compare that to Jones and his measley 556. Not saying attempts is the end all be all, but for a pocket passer it seems like its a big part of them learning the game. 

None of those guys had an OL even half as good as Alabama's. It's really as simple as that, why have someone who isn't a runner attempt to run the ball when he has plenty of time in the pocket? 

 

Edit: You must be talking about pass attempts now. That's a completely different argument than what I'm talking about. That's something that works against Mac Jones, but again I'm not here to defend him lol. Obviously you take that into consideration when scouting him, he doesn't have quite the experience you want. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Skinsinparadise]

How much does the QB situation impact free agency?

A lot. Not at all. Or, OK, maybe a little. It depends which agent you ask. As it searches for an upgrade, Washington, for now, has quarterbacks Alex Smith, Taylor Heinicke and Steven Montez under contract with Kyle Allen an exclusive rights free agent.

One agent was adamant he wouldn't send his clients into a situation like Washington's, feeling it could prevent them from building up statistics and earning another deal. That would especially be true if the player was coming on a one-year, prove-it deal where numbers equal more money the following year.

However, another agent, who also represents some wide receivers, said the quarterback situation wouldn't matter.

"For any player in free agency, money is always the No. 1 thing," the agent said. "If it's equal in pay, you go to your next criteria. For your last deal you might say I'll play with the best quarterback, but those guys have gotten their money already."

Another agent said if a guy hasn't played with a good quarterback, it might fuel his desire to get with one. But it was clear some quarterbacks would be undesirable.

"I don't think there's ever a cookie-cutter method," he said. "It depends on the player and his priorities."

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington/post/_/id/41059/from-curtis-samuel-to-draft-washington-has-options-to-add-speed-at-wr

[CommDownMan]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

How much does the QB situation impact free agency?

One agent was adamant he wouldn't send his clients into a situation like Washington's, feeling it could prevent them from building up statistics and earning another deal.

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington/post/_/id/41059/from-curtis-samuel-to-draft-washington-has-options-to-add-speed-at-wr

 

This is why I did my offseason exercise with defense heavy in FA and offense heavy in draft.

 

What LB or DB wouldn't want to play behind this DL.  Players should be begging to play with these guys.  They have agents say things like the above, but that should only be offense in my mind.

 

Najee was my hope at 19, get maybe OT in 2nd, 2 of WR/TE/QB in 3rd and see how things play out.  Offense it would be reasonable to at least match last year with better TOP and defense would be exciting. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, RWJ said:

SIP, respectfully I didn't respond back to you with criticism.  I don't believe you did as well.  I understand how you feel about Mac and you understand how I feel about Mac.  Yes, Mac is in for a somewhat rude awakening when he gets to the NFL.  RR and staff will school him on getting into shape, if they like him and are able to draft him.  Another team; another coaching staff it will be interesting to see how things play out.  

 

Unless the criteria for every player is they only got upside with no flaws, then I'd be considered critical of every player.    None of these guys are perfect prospects -- they all have weaknesses.  So I give my pro and con. 

 

As for Mac, I waffle on him.  50-50.  He's probably going on the weirdest ride among the draft prospects as far perception. He's gone from some say pro personnel guys like him better than mock drafters when the mock drafters had him pegged as a late first rounder-2nd rounder.  Now there is some vibe of the reverse -- he's the darling of some mock drafters but some like Albert Breer (who I trust as for buzz about the draft) saying a lot of the pro personnel guys he talks to has Jones rated as a 2nd rounder and they won't take him earlier than that.  So Jones' ride on draft day to me at least feels unpredictable. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Somehow the Cardinals being a terrible team at drafting keeps eluding my memory. Imagine if they didn't draft Murray lol.