Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Est.1974]

17 hours ago, dyst said:

Why do you feel we should give up a #1 pick for that guy?

 

Only way I give up the #19 pick for Darnold is for the Jets #1 pick next year otherwise we wait till he hits free agency.

the premise of that trade is more about us wanting to trade back from #19 anyway to add an extra pick or more, so it’s combining that desire with taking slightly less in return to get Darnold...if getting a look at Darnold in 2021 is something Rivera and Co want to do.

 

In reality, unless we make a higher profile trade, you probably have to sit with pick #19 and watch the draft unfold. Never know who may start falling into our path.

[Burgold]

If Wentz is worth a 2021 3rd and a 2022 2nd, then Darnold is worth a fifth rounder at best regardless of whether Wentz has an albatross of a contract and Darnold is still on his rookie deal.

[mistertim]

41 minutes ago, Burgold said:

If Wentz is worth a 2021 3rd and a 2022 2nd, then Darnold is worth a fifth rounder at best regardless of whether Wentz has an albatross of a contract and Darnold is still on his rookie deal.

 

Yeah I think the deal for Wentz threw some seriously cold water on what the Jets were probably hoping to get. I'd be pretty shocked if they got anything more than a 5th as well.

[Rex Tomb]

10 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I think the deal for Wentz threw some seriously cold water on what the Jets were probably hoping to get. I'd be pretty shocked if they got anything more than a 5th as well.

I wouldn't even do it for that.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I think the deal for Wentz threw some seriously cold water on what the Jets were probably hoping to get. I'd be pretty shocked if they got anything more than a 5th as well.

 

Still reading a 2nd and change.  Will see.  I hope it doesn't happen.

 

As I've said I like listening to Sheehan but the dude is insufferable on Darnold, caught up with two of his podcasts, in one he said a 2nd and change isn't enough for Darnold, saying he should go for a first rounder, then in the other podcast he said he doesn't want to overpay for any get at Qb and included Darnold in the mix saying he'd just give up a first but no more than that for him.  

 

On another note, caught up with a Donaldson interview with Ron and he touted different spots/players on the team then at the end unsolicited he said something like but it does in the end come all down to the QB.  And he didn't tout a single one on the roster, he just capped it like that.  He came off like he did in other interviews -- Qb is hot on the table. 

 

 

 

 

As Vacchiano writes, the recent Carson Wentz trade (which saw the quarterback traded for a third-round pick and a conditional second-round pick) shouldn’t have any impact on Darnold’s value. This isn’t much of a surprise; besides the shared position, the two players don’t share similar situations. Wentz was significantly more expensive than Darnold, and he’s also dealt with a long list of injuries. Darnold is significantly cheaper in 2021, although he hasn’t come close to matching Wentz’s on-field production.

“There are so many unknowns with Darnold,” a source told Vacchiano. “He’s got a ton of potential, but he’s also had three years to show it. You’re taking a chance that he’ll be better away from the Jets, that he’s not damaged goods. He probably will be good in a better situation.

“But then you’ve only got a year to figure him out before you have to pay him, too.”

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/02/jets-qb-sam-darnold-worth-second-round-pick

Edited February 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[bearrock]

I really can't believe that any GM would trade a second rounder or more for Sam Darnold.  I don't care how bad Gase is, when's the last time a QB who has stunk it up for his first 3 years suddenly turned it around in a different setting?  Occam's razor.  You can dig for all kind of exotic reasons as to why Darnold was bad in NY.  Most likely, Darnold just isn't very good.

[Est.1974]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

On another note, caught up with a Donaldson interview with Ron and he touted different spots/players on the team then at the end unsolicited he said something like but it does in the end come all down to the QB.  And he didn't tout a single one on the roster, he just capped it like that.  He came off like he did in other interviews -- Qb is hot on the table. 

Everything that Rivera has said since the end of the season in relation to the roster starts and ends with QB. I will continue to be amazed if we don’t eventually pull off a move to significantly upgrade. 

[Burgold]

If that's the case, SIP, I hope we are out of the Darnold auction. For me, the top bid is probably a fifth. Maybe you could convince me to add a 2022 third round chaser.

 

If that means we're out of the running, I'm fine with that. I don't think Darnold has shown enough to be worth a first or even a second. In a normal year, maybe he'd be worth a third based on potential, but I'd treat this as a buyer's market and bid low. If we lose out I don't think we lose much. The chance of him suddenly becoming an all pro franchise QB doesn't seem all that high especially here. Think about it, if we trade away heavy draft capital then it'll be harder to address oline and receiver. Heck, some think we need to look at running back, too. Darnold has proven he can't elevate a low talent squad so bringing him here only to provide him with a "low talent" squad makes little sense unless he's obtained for a fair (to us) price.

 

 

[JoggingGod]

11 minutes ago, Burgold said:

but I'd treat this as a buyer's market and bid low.

Excuse me? This is absolutely a seller’s market. Many teams need a QB and a few teams are going to be left out.

[Number 44]

39 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Everything that Rivera has said since the end of the season in relation to the roster starts and ends with QB. I will continue to be amazed if we don’t eventually pull off a move to significantly upgrade. 

Upgrade, yes.  Darnold?  No.

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Still reading a 2nd and change.  Will see.  I hope it doesn't happen.

 

As I've said I like listening to Sheehan but the dude is insufferable on Darnold, caught up with two of his podcasts, in one he said a 2nd and change isn't enough for Darnold, saying he should go for a first rounder, then in the other podcast he said he doesn't want to overpay for any get at Qb and included Darnold in the mix saying he'd just give up a first but no more than that for him.  

 

On another note, caught up with a Donaldson interview with Ron and he touted different spots/players on the team then at the end unsolicited he said something like but it does in the end come all down to the QB.  And he didn't tout a single one on the roster, he just capped it like that.  He came off like he did in other interviews -- Qb is hot on the table. 

 

 

 

 

As Vacchiano writes, the recent Carson Wentz trade (which saw the quarterback traded for a third-round pick and a conditional second-round pick) shouldn’t have any impact on Darnold’s value. This isn’t much of a surprise; besides the shared position, the two players don’t share similar situations. Wentz was significantly more expensive than Darnold, and he’s also dealt with a long list of injuries. Darnold is significantly cheaper in 2021, although he hasn’t come close to matching Wentz’s on-field production.

“There are so many unknowns with Darnold,” a source told Vacchiano. “He’s got a ton of potential, but he’s also had three years to show it. You’re taking a chance that he’ll be better away from the Jets, that he’s not damaged goods. He probably will be good in a better situation.

“But then you’ve only got a year to figure him out before you have to pay him, too.”

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/02/jets-qb-sam-darnold-worth-second-round-pick

 

Nobody is going to give a 2nd for Darnold I believe. As far as the contract, that's true as far as it goes. But he's also in the last year of it so you'll hope to get a really quick idea of just how good or bad he is because you'll then have to really quickly decide how you're going to handle that going forward.

 

Obviously it's super easy if one of two things happen:

1) He goes out and lays an egg and is horrible. Easy decision. You either let him walk or consider picking up his 5th year option if he at least showed some flashes.

2) He goes out and absolutely kills it and you know he's your guy. Easy decision. You extend him with a nice new deal.

 

I think the worst area to be in is if he ends up being improved and pretty decent, but not great. Then you have to decide if you think he could potentially be your answer if he continues to improve. Then you have to decide how to represent that in a new contract. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by mistertim

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, bearrock said:

I really can't believe that any GM would trade a second rounder or more for Sam Darnold.  I don't care how bad Gase is, when's the last time a QB who has stunk it up for his first 3 years suddenly turned it around in a different setting?  Occam's razor.  You can dig for all kind of exotic reasons as to why Darnold was bad in NY.  Most likely, Darnold just isn't very good.

Exactly. If you're good, it doesn't matter who the coach is. Watson excelled under doofus Bill o'Brien. Herbert was outstanding under idiot Anthony Lynn.

 

Gase is a terrible coach but Darnold himself was also very much a problem. Their offense looked much better when Flacco took over.

[Burgold]

2 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

Excuse me? This is absolutely a seller’s market. Many teams need a QB and a few teams are going to be left out.

I would not treat the Darnold market as a seller's market. I would set a price and go in with the assumption that the Jets want to replace Darnold and need to offramp the player and try to acquire him on the cheap. If I can get him on the cheap that's okay. If it turns out that it's a seller's market and there's an auction for him and a premium to be paid... I'm out.

 

He's worth a cheap price as a reclamation project. He's not worth a premium as a known quantity. If he was worth a premium why in the world would the Jets want to get rid of him?

[RWJ]

Just posting this.  That's all

 

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1363549301671153666?s=20

[madden lot]

The media irritates me. They and the jets no it won't get a first for sam McDonalds 

[Burgold]

31 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Just posting this.  That's all

 

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1363549301671153666?s=20

What a crap trade. Why on Earth would Washington give the Jets a second plus a fifth for a one year rental on Darnold instead of getting Marriota for a third?

 

I'd laugh at the Jets if that's what they are thinking.

 

... And their trade of Daron Payne for a second and change is even worse. Why would we do that? Trade our productive first rounder on a rookie deal at a discount? And pick up someone else's garbage for basically the same price? Blech!

Edited February 21, 2021 by Burgold

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Still reading a 2nd and change.  Will see.  I hope it doesn't happen.

 

As I've said I like listening to Sheehan but the dude is insufferable on Darnold, caught up with two of his podcasts, in one he said a 2nd and change isn't enough for Darnold, saying he should go for a first rounder, then in the other podcast he said he doesn't want to overpay for any get at Qb and included Darnold in the mix saying he'd just give up a first but no more than that for him.  

 

On another note, caught up with a Donaldson interview with Ron and he touted different spots/players on the team then at the end unsolicited he said something like but it does in the end come all down to the QB.  And he didn't tout a single one on the roster, he just capped it like that.  He came off like he did in other interviews -- Qb is hot on the table. 

 

 

 

 

As Vacchiano writes, the recent Carson Wentz trade (which saw the quarterback traded for a third-round pick and a conditional second-round pick) shouldn’t have any impact on Darnold’s value. This isn’t much of a surprise; besides the shared position, the two players don’t share similar situations. Wentz was significantly more expensive than Darnold, and he’s also dealt with a long list of injuries. Darnold is significantly cheaper in 2021, although he hasn’t come close to matching Wentz’s on-field production.

“There are so many unknowns with Darnold,” a source told Vacchiano. “He’s got a ton of potential, but he’s also had three years to show it. You’re taking a chance that he’ll be better away from the Jets, that he’s not damaged goods. He probably will be good in a better situation.

“But then you’ve only got a year to figure him out before you have to pay him, too.”

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/02/jets-qb-sam-darnold-worth-second-round-pick

Strange, I feel the tweet is completely backwards and way off, but maybe it’s me. The Wentz deal financially is overall a positive one for Colts. Wentz is at the very least projects to be average with an unlimited ceiling and is contract for under $25 million for next 3 seasons and Colts can get out any time without any dead cap after next season. 
 

Darnold, he’s not under contract past this season and no history of consistent average QB play to lean on as a floor. The expectations for both guys are completely different heading into next year. No way anyone feels Wentz is a higher risk than Darnold. 
 

On Sheehan, his opinion on Darnold is as unprepared as I’ve witnessed him be in my years of listening to him. He’s usually a radio personality that provides more substance to such an aggressive position. You can’t say to give up a first round pick and not have anything to back it up. 
 

To add, Cooley has become much softer and is now heavily influenced by Sheehan, which is a bummer. He often just agrees, but it does seem Cooley is close to motivating himself to take a closer look at Darnold and have some ammunition to fire back at Sheehan.  

Edited February 21, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Strange, I feel the tweet is completely backwards and way off, but maybe it’s me. The Wentz deal financially is overall a positive one for Colts. Wentz is at the very least projects to be average with an unlimited ceiling and is contract for under $25 million for next 3 seasons and Colts can get out any time without any dead cap after next season. 
 

Darnold, he’s not under contract past this season and no history of consistent average QB play to lean on as a floor. The expectations for both guys are completely different heading into next year. No way anyone feels Wentz is a higher risk than Darnold. 
 

On Sheehan, his opinion on Darnold is as unprepared as I’ve witnessed him be in my years of listening to him. He’s usually a radio personality that provides more substance to such an aggressive position. You can’t say to give up a first round pick and not have anything to back it up. 
 

To add, Cooley has become much softer and is now heavily influenced by Sheehan, which is a bummer. He often just agrees, but it does seem Cooley is close to motivating himself to take a closer look at Darnold and have some ammunition to fire back at Sheehan.  

 

I like Sheehan from the context of he's entertaining and I like that he's still a genuine fan.  I've heard Finlay and Standig seperately in interviews say  they were once fans but not so much anymore.  Sheehan seems genuinely invested in this teams success so I like that.

 

I don't mind Sheehan or anyone have a different point than mine but he's so enthusiastic about Darnold you'd figure he'd sell it but he doesn't dive much into details.  Cooley in a recent podcast repeated the infamous Darnold comment about seeing ghosts (when he was miked up) and was having a lousy game.   Then Cooley suggested Darnold might be soft so Sheehan goes if you think he's soft than you shouldn't want him so Cooley backtracked and said its not necesssarily what he thought but others might.   But I still haven't heard Cooley say he watched a few games and here is his conclusion.  I respect Cooley a lot on that front (film reviews) so if he dived into Darnold and actually sold him after that, it would make me feel better about it if they chased him. 

 

I went back and rewatched three Darnold USC games to re-familiarize myself in what I and mock drafter types liked about Darnold before the draft.  I recall liking Darnold but not loving him, then.  I liked Mayfield better than him.  I didn't watch Josh Allen but i recall Cooley thouight Allen was the best QB in that class.  And Cooley was right.  Everyone gets some wrong including Cooley but he has IMO a good eye. 

 

My take rewatching some Darnold USC games he comes off at times like a baller because he's good at dodging pressure in the pocket, readjusting his feet (something Haskins struggled with) on the move and making at times ballsy highlight type plays.  He's not fast.  He's not a runner.   But he is great at rolling in the pocket and making something happen.  You could also see the bad decision making easily, too.  He makes some real dumb decisions as to throwing into coverage.   He can make some real beauty throws on out routes and darts on the move.   But his touch isn't always there and his accuracy isn't laser sharp.  

 

As for what's different in college versus the pros for him?  IMHO, its in college he played with moxie as for stretching the field.  He looked like a dude who might have turnover issues in the pros but also would move the ball down the field.  So sort of like a Ryan Fitzpatrick, but not as accurate, but with a stronger arm and better movement in the pocket.  The pro version of Darnold from what i saw is a dude who doesn't play with confidence/moxie and makes safer throws yet still has enough boneheaded decisions to throw away a game.  So the combination to me is "meh"

 

If teams think they can rehab him, I am guessing its something like this:  Gase might have turned him into a game manager type which wasn't his game in college, bring out more of his USC moxie, don't worry about making mistakes.  Let it fly more.  The mistakes are happening with the conservative play anyway.  Darnold comes off as a baller with the Jets still from the context of making plays when the pocket breaks down but otherwise he doesn't seem to play with moxie.   

 

In short, I'd guess some teams might think a fresh scene and good coaching might help rebuild his confidence and then surround him with weapons.  Watching his USC games (unlike the Jets) the overriding vibe I get is he's going to give his receivers chances and will require them to make contested catches so you better get dudes who do that well.    Same feeling I have if they get Ryan Fitzpatrick.  But back to Darnold, I think you got to build his confidence back and perhaps have him just ride with the gun slinger style of USC versus the game manager with the Jets.   I don't think you can coach the turnovers out of him, it seems inherent in his game, and the Jets made him play more conservatively and yet he still has issues with turnovers then IMO its just who he is.  You got to live with it and accentuate his strengths. 

 

So none of this means I want Darnold.  i don't.  The main reason why is I think QBs who make poor decisions routinely aren't really seeing the field well.  I got the same impression when I watched Rosen.  It's not that Rosen and Darnold are just being aggressive and stuff happens, that I could live with, its that they have these throws that make you shake your head as to what are they thinking?  

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, bearrock said:

I really can't believe that any GM would trade a second rounder or more for Sam Darnold.  I don't care how bad Gase is, when's the last time a QB who has stunk it up for his first 3 years suddenly turned it around in a different setting?  Occam's razor.  You can dig for all kind of exotic reasons as to why Darnold was bad in NY.  Most likely, Darnold just isn't very good.

I would also add that unless you have a QB whisperer/talent analyst with the rep and lineage of an Andy Reid, you probably won't pull that talent out (if it was there in the first place).

[actorguy1]

Perhaps having Ken Zampese as QB coach makes them confident they can turn Darnold around, but I'm certainly not in favor of it. 

[Darth Tater]

The only risk the Colts took on with the Wentz deal is the downside. If you trade that much for Darnold, you are taking on the downside risk and the upside risk.

[Number 44]

We already have four quarterbacks that are better than Darnold.  Doing nothing is preferable to trading anything whatsoever for Darnold.

[RWJ]

29 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Perhaps having Ken Zampese as QB coach makes them confident they can turn Darnold around, but I'm certainly not in favor of it. 

That's the only thing I can think of.   Zampese see's something in him but he's got to convince Turner and most especially RR.

[fearlessNelms]

Although the reports and rumors are all interesting to read, I'm not giving much thought to any of them when it comes to what QB we might be trading for or looking to get by trading up in the draft. This new regime we have is not going to tip their hand to any media people or anybody else- no matter how locked in they think they are to the Football Team.

 

If one of the most incompetent front offices ever in Bruce Allen and company were able to keep the surprise trades of Donovan McNabb and Alex Smith to Washington quiet until it they went down, then I strongly feel that Rivera and his guys will absolutely not let anything leak. So, the more I hear about us trading for guys like Darnold and Mariota, the less I believe that that's what will actually happen.

 

I have my thoughts on some guys I'd like to see us go after- Minshew being one of them. But whatever we do, I'm confident that Rivera and our front office have a real plan for the QB position and will be extremely quiet and patient in executing it. 

[Darth Tater]

44 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Perhaps having Ken Zampese as QB coach makes them confident they can turn Darnold around, but I'm certainly not in favor of it. 

Thing is, the closest successful project like that was probably Mike Holmgren with Steve Young over 30 years ago. Holmgren had been Young's QB coach in college and had multiple years to rehab Young.