Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 

Given what you're showing me in the burgle aisle, I'm pausing to glance one row over. Do we dare? Is Heinike our veggie burger?

 

Since Rivera brought Heinicke as his date to the party so to speak and he's the one who knew him for years, i am just not going to assume Rivera doesn't understand what he has in him.  So for Heinicke, i want whatever Rivera wants.  Rivera right now seems to be clearly telegraphing he thinks the QB spot isn't settled because Heinicke is in the fold.  Clearly he's looking for an upgrade. 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'm not sure what Rivera is thinking (which may mean you are correct.) So far, all we know for sure is that Washington has not done enough to swing a deal. They were supposedly in the Stafford chase, but bowed out of the auction.

 

According to everyone who covered the story, they didn't bow out.  they were outbid.  Rivera himself hasn't denied this. 

 

24 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The lack of moves or the unwillingness to pay a premium could be a sign that Rivera is looking for an upgrade, but doesn't want to overpay. It also could be a backhanded compliment to how he feels about Heinike. He may be saying I don't have to overpay because if I lose out I am okay rolling with the beer man.

 

 

Rivera has been pretty clear he's looking to upgrade at QB.  Every beat reporter has said they are poking at options at QB and its their top pursuit.  Rivera himself has said the same.  You don't look for a QB when you believe the answer is in house.  Now, they might not be able to get a QB at the price they are willing to pay and the options then might stay the way it is now.  But if they were satisfied with the status quo they have a funny way of showing it. 

 

Offering a first and a third for Stafford is a heavy haul.  The Rams just bid more.   Apparently so did Carolina.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

13 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'm not sure what Rivera is thinking (which may mean you are correct.) So far, all we know for sure is that Washington has not done enough to swing a deal. They were supposedly in the Stafford chase, but bowed out of the auction. Were they ever in the Wentz chase? Are they looking at Watson, Darnold, etc? The lack of moves or the unwillingness to pay a premium could be a sign that Rivera is looking for an upgrade, but doesn't want to overpay. It also could be a backhanded compliment to how he feels about Heinike. He may be saying I don't have to overpay because if I lose out I am okay rolling with the beer man.

 

Still, while I would love Heinicke (I think I spell his name differently every time) to be this generation's Warner or even Tom Brady IE unheralded guy whose feet fit Cinderella's slipper perfectly. Going into the season with him after 1.5 games is one heck of a risky dice toss.

 

I guess the biggest question is what do you think this team's ceiling is in 2021? If you think it's a team ready for a deep playoff run with the addition of a good QB then I think you do look harder at Mariotta and the others. If you think we're still missing a bunch of pieces and still building the culture, then it's tougher to justify giving up the assets and may be worth the risk of going with lesser known quantities.

 

Well Rivera has said himself multiple times that finding a franchise QB is one of their most important tasks right now. He's also done some hedging when asked about Heinicke. He certainly praised his performance vs TB but IIRC when asked about him being "the guy" he talked a bit about him potentially getting a chance but has also mentioned durability, a small sample size, as well as being able to play with nothing to lose vs consistently being good.

 

To me those two things taken together, along with them offering a 1st + for Stafford (assuming those reports are true), suggests to me that Rivera doesn't really see Heinicke as the guy. Or, more likely...he's open to it being possible, but he's certainly not banking on it. 

 

They gave him a modest 2 year contract so I have a feeling they're looking more at him as a potentially good backup. Though I'm guessing he'll get a chance to start...especially if we bring in some unheralded FA and/or draft a guy who may need development.

[Jumbo]

in general and simplistically in the now, i'd rather draft the right guy and build around him given how much 'new' is in the org now...why not really do it that way as this is the best shot we have had in a long time to do so with a solid 'new' base in coaching and defense and being minus bruce allen (tho dan will still dan somehow soemtime i'm sure)

[Burgold]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

 

They gave him a modest 2 year contract so I have a feeling they're looking more at him as a potentially good backup. Though I'm guessing he'll get a chance to start...especially if we bring in some unheralded FA and/or draft a guy who may need development.

The two-year contract is an interesting thing to me. It speaks both as a reward, a suggestion of faith, and like you said, a hierarchical statement. More, it speaks to the notion that neither Heinike or his agent thought he could get real QB money on the market. Still, the second year matters.

 

I suspect both of you are right. I think the operating assumption is Heinike can't do it, but they'll give him a shot to blow their minds. That's kind of where I am too. So many teams would have had to have been wrong about Heinike including Rivera's Panthers that's it's unlikely that all of a sudden he emerges. We've seen it happen. With Gannon, Brad Johnson. Both of those were bums most of their careers then had that one brilliant period of success. Mind you, Heinike's career has been several steps below Gannon and Brad Johnson. Heinike's been just trying to stay on a practice squad and keep his head above water. So, it's probable he's not the guy. It'd be crazy if it turned out he was.

 

Still, I don't want to break the bank or trade heavy assets for the guys available with the possible exception of Watson.

[88Comrade2000]

7 hours ago, Panninho said:

At this point I don't want Kaep. Not for any political reasons but because he has been out of the league for years. And it's not like he was setting the world on fire before. Why should we expect that he is an immediate upgrade over anyone we have when he hasn't been part of a QB room for years now?

 

I don't  think Kaep is really interested in playing football. He just wants that platform; so he can promote his social justice causes.

[86 Snyder]

4 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

my main stance is 'whatever, just refrain from thinking heinieke is an actual answer at qb' (  <sorry>...that hope is so representative of the eternal blinded desperation of so many wft fans) ) 

 

in general and simplistically in the now, i'd rather draft the right  guy and build around him given how much 'new' is in the org now...why not really do it that way as this is the best shot we have had in a long time to do so with a solid 'new' base in coaching and defense and being minus bruce allen (tho dan will still dan somehow soemtime i'm sure)

 

I think the traits he showed in that TB game are very real and clear the bar necessary to contend...I just have no faith he can stay healthy for any length of time.  Pocket presence, escapaibility, going through progressions, pushing the ball downfield at times, accuracy...he demonstrated all of those traits in a big time game.

 

Put it another way...if you guarantee me Heinickie is healthy for the next two years, he's my starting QB.  If a QB prospect I really like  is sitting there at 19 or wherever we pick next year I would still draft them, but I'm no longer scouring the veteran market, chasing guys like Stafford in a trade, or entertaining trading a bunch of picks to move up in the 1st for a QB.

 

That's really a bit of fantasy land though because everything about Taylor indicates he cannot hold up to the physicality.  

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The two-year contract is an interesting thing to me. It speaks both as a reward, a suggestion of faith, and like you said, a hierarchical statement. More, it speaks to the notion that neither Heinike or his agent thought he could get real QB money on the market. Still, the second year matters.

 

 

Yeah I think it was a good deal for both sides. A guy came in from off the street and played well and got himself back into the NFL for 2 years for some decent money and the team gets a pretty low cost guy who can either compete for the starting job, or be a good backup. Win-win.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, redrobert said:

So a 23 year old Vet in Sam Darnold for a 2nd Rounder or our early 3rd? 

4th Rounder would be the max.

[Jumbo]

<edit my lack of awareness---don't tell anyone>

[mistertim]

Why would anyone give up a 4th for Darnold? He looked almost as bad as Haskins and Haskins could barely get signed after being cut.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I know I come across as harsh on the Heinicke thing, but I actually am pretty close to where you are on it: if Rivera said "Yeah we think he's the guy" I'd be much more comfortable with rolling with him and trying to surround him with talent. I'd still be a bit worried about things like his durability, but Rivera and his people have forgotten more football than I know so I'd take their word for it.

 

For Fitz, yeah I do like watching him play, and he can get hot...and often in big games, you're right. So we could do worse. If we are indeed in that aisle, then he's probably a decent bet. But I can just see the game day threads now when Fitz is on a cold streak... "PICKPATRICK STRIKES AGAIN! YOU LOSER!" 

When I think about it, Fitz it the perfect guy to bring in as a bridge to Heiny, Allen or whoever the future is. Let Heiny and Allen compete in camp with a vet. Also, give Fitz a good defense, in the NFC East, with a good running game and he's gonna be an even better QB. I would love to see how we did with Fitz on the team....if Heiny wins he job and struggles in a game, who better to bring in then the hired gun? 

Just now, mistertim said:

Why would anyone give up a 4th for Darnold? He looked almost as bad as Haskins and Haskins could barely get signed after being cut.

Exactly.....especially if our coaches believe we have in-house answers who are better. No way Darnold would've played as well against Tampa as Heiny did in our playoff game. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I think the move to make, ultimately, is to either roll with what we have + a vet tire-kick (Mariota being really the only one that intrigues me) ....

 

Or trade up. I know we have a lot of folks to compete with to get up for a QB. But I would be targeting the Falcons at #4 or the Lions at #7. See how the draft plays out at the top and how the QB shuffle works itself out this off-season.

 

The teams that are absolutely locks to go QB in the draft if something doesnt settle out beforehand are:

- Jags, Jets, Panthers, Patriots, Bears, WFT

 

So maybe you can convince the Falcons to trade off #4 for a bunch of picks. I have to think Miami opts to stay in the Top 10 if they trade down. Atlanta is in a position to create cap space so maybe they'd prefer to add picks this year at lower value and load up in 2022.

 

I would consider offering the Falcons #19, #74 and 2022 #1 and try and grab FIelds or Lance there. Of course, you could roll the dice and see if Atlanta passes on QB and Fields/Lance slide further. If the draft goes Lawrence, Wilson, Chase, Sewell, Slater, Waddle/Smith ... you gotta go up and get that 7th pick. Might cost a bit less. But I would think Panthers Broncos go QB-QB at 8/9 in that scenario.

Edited February 19, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[clskinsfan]

11 hours ago, Sacks &#x27;n&#x27; Stuff said:

Fitzpatrick only makes sense to me as a placeholder if we draft a QB high this year.

Or if you think Heineken can develop into a solid starter. That has kind of been Fitzpatricks MO. Placeholder while your kid gets his feet under him. 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am definitely in the Fitzpatrick camp.  Sorry for using all these meat references but for some reason its the best analogy that hits me to this even though I don't really eat much meat. 😀

 

We got the steak aisle.  We got the burger aisle.  If we can't get the steak then we got no choice but to go to the burger aisle.  and my favorites on that front would be in order Mariota, Fitzpatrick, Winston.  I'd be happy for different reasons with any of the three.  And its not because i am pretending a burger is steak.  But heck if that ends up the hand dealt, then I have certain ones i like within that category.

 

As for Fitzpatrick, I've watched him a bunch.  I was at the game, 2 years back, when we had control of it with Rosen in the game -- Fitz comes in in the 4th quarter and comes back and likely would have beat us if it weren't for their weird 2 point attempt at the end of the game to try to win it.   I watched the one last year where they were losing to the Raiders, they bench Tua, bring in Fitz and he mounted a crazy comeback.  The dude has plenty of faults but he's a good leader, teammate and is clutch.

 

He's graded better by PFF and by a good margin over Trubisky, Dalton, Darnold, etc.  He does throw picks but its not always crazy/insane.  It may feel that way because they tend to come in waves with him.  He'd have like 2 games back to back with multiple picks.  He's a streaky player and is aggressive.

 

But if we aren't going to fine dining restaurants and going with fast food.  He IMO is one of the better fast food bets.  i'd take a mobile Alex Smith over Fitzpatrick.  But I'd easily take Fitzpatrick over the current immobile/injury prone Alex. 

 

 

 

What QB would be a steakburger? Now, I want either a steak or burger. 

[86 Snyder]

39 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

in general and simplistically in the now, i'd rather draft the right guy and build around him given how much 'new' is in the org now...why not really do it that way as this is the best shot we have had in a long time to do so with a solid 'new' base in coaching and defense and being minus bruce allen (tho dan will still dan somehow soemtime i'm sure)

 

Not trying to quarrel with the mods or anything but I'm not sure how we can have a discussion about the direction to take with QB next season without some overlapping discussion about the QBs already on the roster.  This thread has discussed just about every QB in the league at this point lol.  

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[mistertim]

17 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Or if you think Heineken can develop into a solid starter. That has kind of been Fitzpatricks MO. Placeholder while your kid gets his feet under him. 

 

This may be a bit semantic...but Heinicke is going to be 28 next season. He's not what I'd call a kid in football terms. A kid would be a guy we draft IMO. I could certainly see Fitz in that role. Especially if we managed to get someone like Lance who's gifted but raw for the NFL game (I'm guessing we'd probably have to trade up into the top 10 for him, but not top 5 like the other top guys).

Edited February 19, 2021 by mistertim

[Jumbo]

19 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Not trying to quarrel with the mods or anything but I'm not sure how we can have a discussion about the direction to take with QB next season without some overlapping discussion about the QBs already on the roster.  This thread has discussed just about every QB in the league at this point lol.  

 

 

 

just carry on as you were--consider it my bad; having not read the stadium for a bit, i went by thread titles and board rules (existing heinieke thread) when posting and missing how pervasive the henineie discussion was in here already  and yeh, tit would be hard to for many to avoid (i could do it easy )

 

all good  

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

What QB would be a steakburger? Now, I want either a steak or burger. 

 

Probably this dude but it sounds like he's not for sale.  Closer to steak than burger but IMO somewhere in between. 

 

 

 

 

 

[PartyPosse]

I assume a QB decision will have to have been made before the draft. It’s a huge risk, especially if they’re targeting someone early.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

If this is their strategy they'd be pretty foolish. Teams will be set and less teams will get into a bidding fray for him. Why do you think they would wait that long to make him available?

They don't want to lose him. So, they will wait it out and hope he changes his mind. I think a trade right before the season is unlikely because they wouldn't get much. If he were available; there would be teams that would trade for him, even at that late date. 2022 seems more likely. Why would Houston do that, either a right before the season or 22; it's Houston. They are that incompetent.

[ExoDus84]

35 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Why would anyone give up a 4th for Darnold? He looked almost as bad as Haskins and Haskins could barely get signed after being cut.

 

All I want next season is for Darnold and Haskins to play each other as the starting QB's. No offense to Tom Brady, but that would show us what stud quarterbacking really looks like.

[Thinking Skins]

I wonder if the stories we're hearing about Lance and Fields are in any way similar to how we heard stories about Haskins. According to Jay, Dan had his mind made up on Haskins 6 months before the draft. I wonder if the same is true for Lance or Fields. Both of these are QBs I like, though Fields more than Lance. I feel like Lance could turn into this year's version of a Jackson or RG3 or a Vick or a Vince Young, more athletic and more of a runner than a passer right now. But I think Fields could be more of a Prescott or Watson or into the mold of the more athletic QB who can create plays with both his arm and his legs. But the problem I have with both these guys is their experience. 

 

But I really wonder if Dan has already told Ron that we're drafting these guys if they're there at 19 or if they're working on trade ups to certain spots in the draft if one of them drops. Its weird listening to that Jay interview and then thinking about these "reports" coming out about the park right now. I really wonder what they're trying to tell us. 

[wit33]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

ok, thanks, no problem, its part of the reason why I asked if it was directed at me before I responded. 
 

 

“Appreciate you”  being the mature one in this stand-off and squashing it. My bad, once again. 

 

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

lol, I can think of two pretty big points that you were wrong on that you've argued with me for some time.  but who's counting?  😉
 

 

Woah... which two points would this be? 
 

I feel a conversation cannon balling into a pool of nuances, layers, timing, and motives. 
 

But hey, it’s the off season, perfect time to engage. 

 

[clskinsfan]

16 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This may be a bit semantic...but Heinicke is going to be 28 next season. He's not what I'd call a kid in football terms. A kid would be a guy we draft IMO. I could certainly see Fitz in that role. Especially if we managed to get someone like Lance who's gifted but raw for the NFL game (I'm guessing we'd probably have to trade up into the top 10 for him, but not top 5 like the other top guys).

He is a kid in football life though. The guy only has only started 2 games. And has less than 100 career pass attempts. He could use a season under someone like Fitz.