Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[The Consigliere]

56 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Watson has never sucked.  Brees had one good year in SD and one mediocre one the rest pretty much sucked.

 

You're not getting my point, though you're also not characterizing him fairly, he played like a snap as a rookie, was solid in his second year (compare his first year as starter to Manning's), injured his third year, and outstanding in his final year, then a FA. Yeah Watson wasn't that, agreed, but people had every reason to believe that Brees would be at bare minimum, a solid QB after '04.

 

Doesn't matter though, my point about Brees was that much like with Brees, if we get Watson, we get a guy entering his age 26 season. This isn't getting a broken down past it Boonell, or McNabb or hell Mariota as some have mentioned, like with Brees, this is a guy just starting to enter his prime, and likely to have at least a 5+ year career beyond that and more likely a longer one considering the protections in place for QB's these days. 

 

Whereas in '99 we were getting Brad Johnson in the middle/late middle of his career, Boonell at the Tail End, and McNabb at the washed up period (and heck Alex Smith also approaching the washed up section), we're getting Watson several years younger than any of those guys when we landed them (and in some cases, nearly a full decade younger).

 

It's a massive, orders of magnitude difference. It's also why a trade would make sense unlike with Stafford.

 

It's still not my first choice, I'd rather trade up for a QB for the rookie contract angle, but failing that, trading the farm for a legit QB is well worth it because he's a franchise QB, period, and like Brees 15 years ago, he's got a long career ahead of him. He's no stop gap like a Rivers last year or a Stafford would've been. 

 

As for Houston sucking w/Watson, that's simple. Totally incompetent ownership and F.O. lead by a totally incompetent coach wasted a giant pile of draft picks, and players on idiotic trades to the point where multiple drafts were bereft of assets, the defense was a wasteland and the offense had an OL that wasn't helpful, and an oft injured and largely broken down collection of assets on offense (David Johnson was done and sucked, Kahale Warring has missed most of his first two years, Will Fuller has never been healthy ever (which is probably why he got nailed for PED's), Cooks is a concussion away from retirement. I could go on and on. 

 

While the redskins roster is still a mess (OL graded out well, but is not something I'm trusting), he'd still have in house a legit #1 WR, a TE who finished top 10 in the league, an elite young RB, and a defense that was like Houston's a couple of years ago, but even better up front. The team would be at worst, an instant .500 caliber club, and a legit one, and not the faux-one we had this year, because we'd have the consistency at QB to prevent the roof from caving in on our heads like it usually has since Gibbs I ended. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Take a chance on Heinecke/Allen. Watson is a suicide mission.

 

I'd take a chance if I felt that's how Rivera felt about it.  But it seems clear that he doesn't and wants to upgrade.  I figured he and Scott Turner and Hurney and all the Carolina guys know Allen and Heinicke best.  And if they aren't sold, I am not sold.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Burgundy Yoda]

15 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I may well trade five 1sts for him, but not Chase Young and three 1sts.

 

I’d rather not include Sweat. But, mark my words, if we trade for him, I expect Sweat to be included. Outside of Chase, Sweat is probably our most valuable defensive player in a trade. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chase Young is at minimum worth 2 first rounders, but really much more. We have to remember that first rounders differ in value as well, he was the #2 pick and the best prospect in the draft. It really depends on the team we're trading with though, Houston could very likely have multiple years of top 3 picks, which may be pretty close in value. If someone like Kansas City calls up, they would need to offer 5 or 6 1sts at least. Their first rounders are basically high 2nd rounders. 

 

It's a big reason why I think Houston would be smart to ask for 4 or 5 1sts from us, while only asking 3 from the Jets and 4 from Miami. Simply put, you cannot meet the value of Deshaun Watson without gutting your team and future. Houston will probably get below value for him because Deshaun Watson really is worth 5 1sts but teams just can't meet those demands. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Koolblue13]

Lets trade 5 years of talent for a QB with 2 ACL surgeries that went 4-12 last year. Brilliant. 

 

We're not in the Watson talks thank god. That's a team ruining move.

 

Thank god the fans don't make these decisions, and hope that Snyder doesn't either. 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I was cool with Stafford. Fans claiming this was another over the hill retread were wrong, he has plenty left. But this idea of Matt Ryan, now that smells of another Donovan McNabb.  

 

If my math is right he'd be about 32 million on the cap.  And he's 36.  I much preferred Stafford.   I think he'd be a leg up over McNabb but to me he's not worth killing the cap over.  

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd take a chance if I felt that's how Rivera felt about it.  But it seems clear that he doesn't and wants to upgrade.  I figured he and Scott Turner and Hurney and all the Carolina guys know Allen and Heinicke best.  And if they aren't sold, I am not sold.

 

Perhaps they're not, but I think they should be. What Heinecke showed us wasn't normal. He showed an understanding of the offense, innate pro QB instincts, competitive drive and was fundamentally sound. I think if he gets a good weight training regimen ymwe can win with him. Same with Allen.

 

Some prices are just too steep to pay. 

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

The only thing about this is that those were the exact words that Ron used as to why he was going to play Allen over Haskins. So why not just go with Allen in this scenario? I know there are injury concerns but I feel like we're coming into 2021 with a blackjack hand, say we're sitting on 16. Its not a definite winning position but its something we can play with. Coming into the 2020 season, it was more like we had an A and a 3, which is really nothing and we were going to be looking for a hit, which in this case was the need for more players. Now that we have a better hand we aren't really looking for a whole new set of players, just a few pieces here and there. And what's more is that we showed that we can win with the pieces we have.

 

So a 16 in Blackjack isn't always going to win you a hand, but if we just stayed there, there's a chance your opponent will have a 14 and ask for a hit and get a Jack and bust. Or they can just have worse cards than us. Thing is Heinicke and Allen showed they could play and put up decent numbers. Gibson, Thomas, McClaurin, and Sims all showed they could play with these guys. So I don't think we are in a dire situation like we need a hit from the dealer. It'd be nice if we landed that perfect peice, but I'd hate to see us abandon the path we already started to pave. 

I think we agree, no need to panic...that's why  think RR, if he can't get Watson, is gonna bring in a vet regardless, he can't watch his  QB's go down or play poorly without a vet in the QB room. If we move on from Alex, we need a vet who knows the league and can step in if needed, like Alex had to.  I seriously hope it's not Dalton but if it is then I get it. I'd prefer Fitzmagic of all the vets who could be available. Fitzmagic, Heiny, Allen, rookie is enough to win the East and win in the playoffs if the defense is improved and an iimpact WR is added. If you give Fitzmagic TMac and ARob he is gonna get the ball to them without question...add in the dumps to McKissic and Gibson and we have a dangerous offense.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by kingdaddy

[Est.1974]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If my math is right he'd be about 32 million on the cap.  And he's 36.  I much preferred Stafford.   I think he'd be a leg up over McNabb but to me he's not worth killing the cap over.  

are you referring to Ryan there, think his salary is 23mil in 2021 then in 2022 its a similar number inclusive of a roster bonus. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

are you referring to Ryan there, think his salary is 23mil in 2021 then in 2022 its a similar number inclusive of a roster bonus. 

2021: 23m

2022: 23.75m

2023: 28m

[RichmondRedskin88]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lets trade 5 years of talent for a QB with 2 ACL surgeries that went 4-12 last year. Brilliant. 

 

We're not in the Watson talks thank god. That's a team ruining move.

 

Thank god the fans don't make these decisions, and hope that Snyder doesn't either. 

No five years of talent is crazy.  But if we pulled 3 firsts I think you can justify it.  Obviously you have to give him talent at WR and a line to protect him but Watson takes you from a 7-9 division winner to a contender.  Assuming you don’t hand over a bunch of players too. Trading one D linemen wouldn’t kill us.  I wouldn’t give up Chase though.

Edited February 2, 2021 by RichmondRedskin88

[mhd24]

I am 100 percent opposed to trading for Watson.  Its too much of a risk, especially for a guy with ACL injuries on both legs.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Perhaps they're not, but I think they should be. What Heinecke showed us wasn't normal. He showed an understanding of the offense, innate pro QB instincts, competitive drive and was fundamentally sound. I think if he gets a good weight training regimen ymwe can win with him. Same with Allen.

 

Some prices are just too steep to pay. 

 

As for Heinicke, a couple of beat reporters have said they heard that some in the building are concerned about his durability.  He's barely played in the NFL and in that short sample looks very injury prone.  He seems to have a small frame where he might not hold up over a season ala Colt McCoy.  He has played 2 full games in the NFL.  One game where he was really bad and one game where he was really good. 

 

Kyle Allen looked good in a short sample this season.  He started well in the previous Carolina season but finished poorly and ended up ranked dead last by PFF.

 

I see the merits of both guys.  It's also not hard to play devil's advocate with either player.    If they aren't sold on these guys as being QB1, then I trust it.   They are the ones who brought both QBs to DC and go back with both guys.  They see them in practice. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Fields is interesting, I legitimately feel like he could drop because of the Ohio State stigma. He reminds me of Dak, he doesn't have the ball placement of some of these other top tier QBs, but really he's a great fit for 2021 NFL offenses and beyond. He's by no means a perfect QB, he likes to hold onto the ball too long and has some issues reading defenses but he doesn't have the lack of work ethic that Haskins had. 

 

I do like how his feet look on drop-backs and in the pocket. It's something that I believe is incredibly important. Does he drop-back cleanly and get into his position fast? Does it look like he has a feel for the game by how his feet (and body) bounce up and down going through his reads? For me, it's a yes on all those when I watched him. 

 

People will be against it because of the Ohio State stigma, but if we can get in front of Carolina I'd draft him. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[samy316]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Perhaps they're not, but I think they should be. What Heinecke showed us wasn't normal. He showed an understanding of the offense, innate pro QB instincts, competitive drive and was fundamentally sound. I think if he gets a good weight training regimen ymwe can win with him. Same with Allen.

 

Some prices are just too steep to pay. 

Sorry, but I don’t agree with that.  Heineicke has basically played about 5 quarters of football with next to zero scouting and film study done from the teams he played.  I agree that his performance was very impressive, but we shouldn’t just roll with him going into next year, and think that we can win the division.  What’s going to happen if Heinecke is the starter next year, and the league has had an offseason to study and game plan for him?

 

We wouldn’t be division favorites next year if we roll out with Heinecke and Allen.  We’d be looking at 7-9 at best, and who knows if that would be good enough to win the division next year.  I think we should either trade for Watson, or we should trade up into the top 10 to have a chance at Fields or Lance.  Our current QB situation is untenable at this point, and we would not be competing for anything meaningful if we stick with the status quo.

Edited February 2, 2021 by samy316

[86 Snyder]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't get the Landon Collin stuff, why would they want him?  overpaid SS coming off of a major injury

 

 

They arent a smart organization so Id definitely start with him in the offer.  Who knows.  

[Est.1974]

Well the Rams just phoned GB and said they wanted to trade for Rodgers.

 

If you want to get things moving, doesn’t someone just pick up the phone to the Texans.

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

2 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Sorry, but I don’t agree with that.  Heineicke has basically played about 5 quarters of football with next to zero scouting and film study done from the teams he played.  I agree that his performance was very impressive, but we shouldn’t just roll with him going into next year, and think that we can win the division.  What’s going to happen if Heinecke is the starter next year, and the league has had an offseason to study and game plan for him?

 

We wouldn’t be division favorites next year if we roll out with Heinecke and Allen.  We’d be looking at 7-9!at best, and who knows if that would be good enough to win the division next year.  I think we should either trade for Watson, or we should trade up into the top 10 to have a chance at Fields or Lance.  Our current QB situation is untenable at this point, and we would not be competing for anything meaningful if we stick with the status quo.

 

Well he showed that he can hit all 3 levels of a defense, can move in the pocket and throw on the run, and can make plays against the blitz. Sure, teams can get a better read on him, but that can work vice versa, with him getting a full NFL offseason under his belt.

 

Watson is a stud, but I just don't think anyone is worth 3 1st rounders + more. Its just too crippling. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

are you referring to Ryan there, think his salary is 23mil in 2021 then in 2022 its a similar number inclusive of a roster bonus. 

 

you are right.  

 

https://bloggingdirty.com/2021/01/06/matt-ryan-contract-trade/

 

If the Atlanta Falcons were to cut Matt Ryan before June 1st, they would have $49 Million in dead money and lose $9 Million in cap space. With the Falcons already in negative $24 million in cap space, this is an unlikely scenario.

The Atlanta Falcons could make Matt Ryan the June 1st cut they would save $17 Million in cap space but have $24 Million in dead money. This move could work but the Atlanta Falcons would have a total of $30 Million dead cap space and would have to make a lot more moves to get under the cap.

Trading Matt Ryan to start the offseason would not be likely. If the Atlanta Falcons traded Ryan before June 1st, they would lose $3 Million in dead cap space and have $44 Million in dead money. Many fans think this is a no brainer, but this would be a disaster for the Atlanta Falcons cap situation.

If the Atlanta Falcons traded Matt Ryan post-June 1st it would have the same cap figures as a June 1st cut. They would save $17 Million in cap space but would have $24 Million in dead money.

The only logical way to move on from Matt Ryan.

All these moves are not likely but there is one more move the Atlanta Falcons could execute but the backlash from fans would be catastrophic. They could dump Matt Ryan’s contract with a team like the Houston Texans did with Brock Osweiler’s contract.

During the 2017 NFL offseason, the Houston Texans dumped Osweiler’s contract to the Cleveland Browns but also give up a second-round pick. The only compensation the Texans received in return is a fourth-round pick and cap space.

This move might be the only way to get rid of Matt Ryan’s contract for the 2021 season.

 

The best example of a team that would take on Matt Ryan’s contract is the San Francisco 49ers. The 49ers are currently projected to have $20 Million in cap space and can open another $24 Million in cap space by making Jimmy Garoppolo the June 1st cut.

Once Matt Ryan is on the 49ers, they could open another $14 Million in cap space by restructuring his contract. For this move to work, however, the Atlanta Falcons would need to send the 49ers draft capital just like the Texans did with the Browns.

[Burgundy Yoda]

4 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

They arent a smart organization so Id definitely start with him in the offer.  Who knows.  

They will surely look into why we want to trade Landon Collins and probably say "wow, that Kamren Curl guy is a stud, what about him?". Even the dumbest organization would do that lol. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

I wouldn't want to make a Ryan move, though if we were committed to this "two/three year window, got to go for it" mentality then a deal with Atlanta makes some sense. 

 

But I can't believe for a second that Atlanta has to pay somebody to take Ryan off their hands. That makes no sense. He's still a good to very good QB, depending on how much last year's struggles were because of the team and coaching around him (i'm pretty sure some of it was).

[justice98]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd take a chance if I felt that's how Rivera felt about it.  But it seems clear that he doesn't and wants to upgrade.  I figured he and Scott Turner and Hurney and all the Carolina guys know Allen and Heinicke best.  And if they aren't sold, I am not sold.

 

It took a QB catastrophe for them to call Heinicke to begin with.  

[wilco_holland]

Don't believe any draft interest in Feb till April. Just saying. 

 

But I do agree that we will bring in a veteran. To compete and have a solid stable plan. We don't need him to win games. 

[redskinss]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Heinicke, a couple of beat reporters have said they heard that some in the building are concerned about his durability.  He's barely played in the NFL and in that short sample looks very injury prone.  He seems to have a small frame where he might not hold up over a season ala Colt McCoy.  He has played 2 full games in the NFL.  One game where he was really bad and one game where he was really good. 

 

Kyle Allen looked good in a short sample this season.  He started well in the previous Carolina season but finished poorly and ended up ranked dead last by PFF.

 

I see the merits of both guys.  It's also not hard to play devil's advocate with either player.    If they aren't sold on these guys as being QB1, then I trust it.   They are the ones who brought both QBs to DC and go back with both guys.  They see them in practice. 

I agree with all of this and the concerns are valid, that's why I've been in the camp that wants to bring in a guy like Fitzpatrick or Dalton and let all three compete in training camp.

In my opinion this gives us so much more freedom everywhere else. 

We can go into the draft with a viable (albeit very questionable) quarterback room so if somebody we love falls we can pounce and get rid of one of the 3 we had going in or pup Allen if that's an option.

And we can use all the extra cap space and picks to fill out the roster and hopefully win with competent offense and a dominant defense. 

Think about how great a place this team would be in if that gamble paid off and heinicke was tearing it up next year verses how bad a situation we'd be in if it didn't and then think about the same best possible outcome verses worst possible if we give up massive assets for Watson or a rookie.

If Watson works out we could certainly be contenders but it's also possible we could struggle due to the lack of ability to fill out the rest of the roster, hence the 4 and 12 record of the Texans last year.

But if Watson doesn't work out for whatever reason, like a torn acl or an alex smith type injury and was never the same again that would be a total disaster after giving up so many assets to get him.

 

That's what I like about going with what's available in free agency or what falls to us in the draft, I think we have a decent stack of chips and a mediocre hand and I'm just not quite ready to push the whole stack into the center of the table just yet. 

 

I'd certainly be excited about the thought of getting Watson but pretty nervous too.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Matt Ryan is too costly for Atlanta to move, I think he'll be there for another year or two.

[CommDownMan]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

My immediate thought here was the same. No way this would leak out. Smoke screen type stuff.

 

Things like this make me wonder about Kyle Smith and other scouts going before the draft is over.  Seems like there wish list could get out.

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Here's why the Lions could make sense. We offer them #19, #74 and our 2022 1st round pick.

 

Lions go into 2022 and 2023 with 5 combined 1st round picks.

2022: DET, LAR, WFT

2023: DET, LAR

 

Granted, the LAR/WFT would likely be in the 2nd half of the draft but it would be enticing to them to have that sort of capital to make a future QB move if they want to kick the tires on Goff.

 

I'm wondering if they are tanking this year and prioritized future picks.  Meaning we could make it 2022 3rd over 74.  Value chart isn't the same, but it doesn't seem to be a factor for Goff/Stafford trade.  6 in the top 100 next year might be worth it and we get another piece this year.