Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[The Consigliere]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:07 AM, Wyvern said:

For a team with so many areas needing to to be upgraded in quality, the rumors of Washington going all in with draft picks for Watson, or even a top-9 2021 draft pick QB, seems like more of that old "Future is Now" mindset that eventually gets the franchise in trouble.

 

Maybe, for the Rams....   their future IS now, and their giving up so many 1st founders can be justified as their strategy of having a real chance at winning a Super Bowl in the next couple of year before their window closes.

 

But Washington? ....I don't think the WFT FO should go overboard, and conclude that just because they made the playoffs this season, that it's now "Future is Now" time.  WFT barely backed into the playoffs, with a losing record, playing a 4th place schedule, and versus team that due to injuries, COVID, or internal troubles, weren't as strong as they normally would have been.  There were still lots of question-marks at some of the WFT's skill positions, the O-line, LBs, and even some of the defensive secondary. 

 

While the team has improved, at least from a team-mindset perspective, and some holes in the roster have been patched, it's far from a solid roster.  So instead of going all in on another quest for a 2021 top-tier Franchise QB, during a seller's market, maybe WFT can get by in 2021with a mix of accurate transition QBs, while the FO continues to  mitigate the impacts of all those Bruce Allen era decisions, and perhaps free up even more cap space to obtain/retain the quality players we really need to have for the team to continue improving.  Let's continue building the foundations before pursuing the prized centerpiece "franchise QB".  The better the supporting cast, the better the chances for having that franchise-level talent suiting up at QB for the WFT.

 

While I appreciate the mindset of Ron's team on how good the WFT is after this last season... I strongly feel that WFT's future still in the future, not in Jan. 2021, and that the FO going all in for another QB, now, would be premature.

 

 

For Stafford I agree. Doesn't make sense. He's seven years older than Watson for kick off next year (and I believe 32 or 33) has had some back issues, and he's not the kind of guy I'm totally sold will play into his late thirties like the Brady's/Brees' and Ben Roth's of the world have. I would not be shocked at all if he retired at 35 or 36.

 

Watson, as long as his body holds up from the running, could be good for 10+ more years. That's an all in that isn't stupid because whatever you give up will likely only impact about 1/3 or 1/4 of the time horizon assuming you hold onto him. You can build around a QB in his mid twenties, one entering their mid thirties is a much dicier proposition that I'd want no part of. 

 

So yeah, I agree w/you eval of the team, I don't think the team's elite, barring us landing an elite QB I expect us to win 5-7 and not sniff the playoffs next year (this happened in Rivera's Panther days too) and as such I'd have no interest in trading the farm for a QB we might only have for 2+ more years, but a guy like Watson whose probably only played 1/4 of his career? That is worth it because he's someone you can rebuild/retool around. 

On 1/31/2021 at 7:52 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

Ex-Houston sports reporter

 

 

 

2 1's, 1 2, and 1 3, and 2 defensive starters and it's a deal. 

On 1/31/2021 at 8:05 AM, mhd24 said:

 

 

 

That would be (from us):  2019 1st+2019 2nd+2020 1st+2020 2nd+Sweat+Payne.

 

I'm NOT trading THAT!

 

Say Carolina does it...

 

That would be #8+2019 2nd+2022 1st+2022 1st+Derrick Brown+Chinn

 

I don't see them doing that either.

 

The Jets/Dolphins are the only teams with the draft capital and desire to make the move IMO.

I am, but I'd swap out a 2 for a 3, and then I'd agree. Not a huge fan of the '22 class, so don't mind missing out on that (at least in terms of offensive weapons, not sure about OL). I'd ask for Kahale Warring with Watson too. 

[The Consigliere]

On 1/31/2021 at 8:23 AM, LetThePointsSoar said:

Hypothetically, if we could give 2 firsts, a 2nd, their pick of any QB on our roster and Montez Sweat for Houston to give us Watson, would you do it? 

 

I love Montez, but tell me where to sign. Periodt. 

 

As mentioned previously, I'd want to get a guy like Kahale Warring back. 

 

I also want to mention for the 90th time, this is why you don't take a DE with the 2nd pick in a draft featuring multiple franchise QB's, and why you do tank for QB's rather than earn meaningless wins, just so we can get beat in the playoffs (I'll grant that TUA is looking sketchy at best right now). 

 

every year i get a ton of push back on this, and then what do you see, our team make ridiculous trades for stop gap QB's. We nearly lost a giant pile of assets for a 33 year old QB with a back problem precisely because we didn't solve QB in last years draft, or tank for a QB in this years draft.

 

Do you guys like the idea of trading away gigantic piles of booty for old injury prone QB's, or half a decade of assets for Watson? Was Chase Young, or a pointless playoff run really worth that trade that almost happened? I sure as hell don't think so. Culture doesn't matter without a QB. Never has, and you can see that w/how the redskins are willing to trade nearly anything that isn't nailed down for a QB that isn't even a top 10 guy generally speaking (Stafford sometimes skirts around the edges inside and outside of top 10 quality).

 

QB's matter, you have to get them when you have the chance, or stupid like this can happen. 

 

[RWJ]

If RR and Co. give up a king's ransom for Watson, I'm not gonna like it.  They want 2 1st, 2 2nd and 2 D starters as you all probably well know by now.  He isn't worth it.  

[The Consigliere]

On 1/31/2021 at 8:39 AM, wilco_holland said:

But let's be honest...

 

Are we this close we need to go all in on a QB? If feel like not...

 

Depends. If it's Watson, sure, because he could be around for 10+ years. For Stafford? Hell no, we aren't contenders, and by the time he's done, that's when we might be, but wouldn't have the assets to make it so. You can turn over a roster 3-4x with a guy like Watson, a lot of career left if he stays healthy. Stafford's already on the second half of the back 9 of his career. Made no sense. 

[Jacoby6644]

Something else to keep in mind .... IF a deal with Houston were to be done, they also now become a QB needy team. IF Alex is HEALTHY and wants to continue playing, he could also be part of that deal. He is a good QB and with health on his side he could have a couple years to help aid in the development of QB that Houston drafts. 
Someone posted about patience will pay off here and I agree. Everyday that goes by in the standoff with Watson, the less Houston gets. If someone wants to throw the farm at them great. But with the no trade clause he can effectively punish them for as long as he likes. The key is to get him to want to come to WFT. If he doesn’t want to be here, doesn’t matter/mute point. 

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

As mentioned previously, I'd want to get a guy like Kahale Warring back. 

 

I also want to mention for the 90th time, this is why you don't take a DE with the 2nd pick in a draft featuring multiple franchise QB's, and why you do tank for QB's rather than earn meaningless wins, just so we can get beat in the playoffs (I'll grant that TUA is looking sketchy at best right now). 

 

every year i get a ton of push back on this, and then what do you see, our team make ridiculous trades for stop gap QB's. We nearly lost a giant pile of assets for a 33 year old QB with a back problem precisely because we didn't solve QB in last years draft, or tank for a QB in this years draft.

 

Do you guys like the idea of trading away gigantic piles of booty for old injury prone QB's, or half a decade of assets for Watson? Was Chase Young, or a pointless playoff run really worth that trade that almost happened? I sure as hell don't think so. Culture doesn't matter without a QB. Never has, and you can see that w/how the redskins are willing to trade nearly anything that isn't nailed down for a QB that isn't even a top 10 guy generally speaking (Stafford sometimes skirts around the edges inside and outside of top 10 quality).

 

QB's matter, you have to get them when you have the chance, or stupid like this can happen. 

 

 

 

If doing a draft of all players in the NFL with current contracts, where would you draft Chase Young?

[carex]

11 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

As mentioned previously, I'd want to get a guy like Kahale Warring back. 

 

I also want to mention for the 90th time, this is why you don't take a DE with the 2nd pick in a draft featuring multiple franchise QB's, and why you do tank for QB's rather than earn meaningless wins, just so we can get beat in the playoffs (I'll grant that TUA is looking sketchy at best right now). 

 

every year i get a ton of push back on this, and then what do you see, our team make ridiculous trades for stop gap QB's. We nearly lost a giant pile of assets for a 33 year old QB with a back problem precisely because we didn't solve QB in last years draft, or tank for a QB in this years draft.

 

Do you guys like the idea of trading away gigantic piles of booty for old injury prone QB's, or half a decade of assets for Watson? Was Chase Young, or a pointless playoff run really worth that trade that almost happened? I sure as hell don't think so. Culture doesn't matter without a QB. Never has, and you can see that w/how the redskins are willing to trade nearly anything that isn't nailed down for a QB that isn't even a top 10 guy generally speaking (Stafford sometimes skirts around the edges inside and outside of top 10 quality).

 

QB's matter, you have to get them when you have the chance, or stupid like this can happen. 

 

 

our team hasn't made a ridiculous trade, in recent years we've traded away a third and Kendall Fuller, who we then got back I might add for an old QB.  And I'd rather have Chase

 

I might add, we have just seen one recent top pick QB traded for a much older one. And 2 teams have moved on from their franchise QB in a year we drafted a DL and there was a franchise QB still available but I see you in here making the ridiculous call to rip on Chase Young over choosing Tua and Herbert, despite them not actually doing anything yet(and Tua's already being talked about as a trade piece) when you could be ripping on Da'Ron Payne over Lamar Jackson

Edited February 1, 2021 by carex

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

An Allen thesis would require one to ask what is the gap between #15 QB and #22 and how does cost factor into the overall equation. Top half of the league QB isn’t a cut off point of average to above play for the QB position and is nuanced. For example, Allen being in the same scheme for years and having a defense that’s potentially ascending to elite status has increased value for Washington. Allen on the open market would have much less value is my position. 
 

With that said, Im not even a huge Allen supporter, but believe he displayed enough command of the offense to be average.  Still a question whether he can be trusted to manage games consistently, which is a huge knock. Like you said, the staff would know best if he was trending in direction of having the ability to consistently manage games. 

 

I am sort of in the PFF school when it comes to QBs.  They are economical and value driven as heck position by position.  i don't always agree with them on that front but i'll give them that they are methodical.  For example, they think the secondary these days trumps the value of the D line (I disagree).  They almost always believe in trading down in the draft because more beats less (I somteimes agree but sometimes don't on that point).  They don't believe in taking a RB high in the draft or spending much on the position.  And a host of other theories.

 

But to them the gloves are off at QB.  If I recall you agree as do I as does PFF that a franchise QB is the be all and end all as to becoming a consistent winner.  PFF isn't in the build a big time roster and a game manager will help you win the SB camp -- they don't buy that.  They are into doing whatever it takes to get the big time QB.  They don't think the QB position is overstated -- to them they think its if anything understated.    They believe you got to keep swinging hard for one until you get one.  I am somewhat in the same camp.

 

As for the value of a good QB versus an average QB with an extra player or two of supporting cast with the cost difference.  I'd probably go with the former over the later.    It depends on the price for a good QB.  But just in general within reason I don't want an average to below average QB.  I genuinely think you got like a 5% shot tops to win a SB like that.  If my goal though is 9-7, then what the heck a dude like Kyle Allen can do it.  But my sights are bigger than that.  I do think we'd have more of a fighting chance in the playoffs with someone like Carr versus Kyle Allen. 

[Number 44]

16 minutes ago, RWJ said:

They want 2 1st, 2 2nd and 2 D starters as you all probably well know by now.

I've seen that mentioned, but I question its validity.  The official word from the Texans is that Watson is their quarterback and they are not shopping him.  Seems odd that they would state what they want in a Watson trade, while simultaneously stating that they aren't planning to trade him.  Perhaps the price you quoted is a guess from someone in the media.  Or perhaps they are really publicly releasing two opposing statements of their position, but I would tend to doubt that.

[RichmondRedskin88]

43 minutes ago, RWJ said:

If RR and Co. give up a king's ransom for Watson, I'm not gonna like it.  They want 2 1st, 2 2nd and 2 D starters as you all probably well know by now.  He isn't worth it.  

They can “want” whatever but when your player is ready to sit the season are you really gonna let his value plunge and let other teams move on until they no longer need him?  Right now they can get great value but soon as QB spots fill that value drops especially if it’s a disgruntled player sitting out. 

[CjSuAvE22]

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

This is so ****ing silly to read dude. These “whiners”  are just fans like you who want to see the team get better. We can disagree in here without infantalizing the opposing viewpoint I think. 

My use of verbiage was poor, but its frustrating to see peoples reactions about the situation of not acquiring a QB via trade being like "I've lost interest again in the team" when really its not like we are missing out on some massive colossal thing we happened to be in the running and lost out on Stafford its not so much a big deal.

[redskinsrmylyfe]

6 hours ago, Mooka said:

 

This is Landon's 7th season and Matt's 5th, coming off an achilles injury and a torn biceps. Thats a massive difference between Payne (4th season) and Curl (2nd) with no significant injuries still on rookie contracts. 

 

Collins is trade bait. Have to dump his contract or outright release him.

Yeah you're right big difference in Four Seasons and five seasons. Who wants a top 5 quarterback anyways?😀

[Est.1974]

5 hours ago, mhd24 said:

According to Breer, Carolina offered their first (#8) and Detroit passed!  I think Detroit did that because they wanted best for Stafford.  Carolina is in no position to win now.

Its been said Stafford had no interest in Carolina. Seems like he wanted LA and Holmes was willing to roll the dice on Goff. Perfect storm for both teams.

 

[Simmsy]

12 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

They can “want” whatever but when your player is ready to sit the season are you really gonna let his value plunge and let other teams move on until they no longer need him?  Right now they can get great value but soon as QB spots fill that value drops especially if it’s a disgruntled player sitting out. 

Like we did with Trent? I don't know anything about the Texans FO, but it sounds like they could be just as incompetent as ours has been over the past several years.

[RichmondRedskin88]

8 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

Like we did with Trent? I don't know anything about the Texans FO, but it sounds like they could be just as incompetent as ours has been over the past several years.

Perfect example.  I was gonna use that actually.  You can’t sit on NFL talent.  It’s like one commentator said about Haskins.  The NFL keeps moving.  It’s always changing.  You may have a diamond that everyone wants but if you wait to make a deal that diamond gets less shiny very quickly and eventually no one wants your diamond because they already found theirs because they got tired of waiting. Especially when they know that diamond wants to leave and you are refusing the move.   They have no leverage (That no trade clause where he can refuse puts them at his mercy.) and they need understand that.  We didn’t have leverage and should have cut our losses.  Texans have to do the same or they will miss out on major compensation. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by RichmondRedskin88

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

If RR and Co. give up a king's ransom for Watson, I'm not gonna like it.  They want 2 1st, 2 2nd and 2 D starters as you all probably well know by now.  He isn't worth it.  

When I see trade proposals like that I always think about how that's 6 players we give up for 1....what happens if our 1 guy gets injured, like what just happened to Dak? And the way Watson runs you'd think he'll get hurt at some point. I know that's a kind of scared way to think and you can't think that way with all of the injuries in the NFL...Hell, we played 4 QB's this year alone. 

[RichmondRedskin88]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

When I see trade proposals like that I always think about how that's 6 players we give up for 1....what happens if our 1 guy gets injured, like what just happened to Dak? And the way Watson runs you'd think he'll get hurt at some point. I know that's a kind of scared way to think and you can't think that way with all of the injuries in the NFL...Hell, we played 4 QB's this year alone. 

I mean he’s not Lamar.  He’s a pocket passer that can run.  He just needs a o line and WRs.  Basically what Houston wouldn’t give him. And traded away the good ones they had. Even JJ Watt went off weeks ago at a press conference and it was clear he was done and he loves Houston. 

[CjSuAvE22]

at this juncture Dak is growing on me if he becomes a free agent, we dont give up any picks and he can play seems to have a good knowledge of the game just needs a cole beasly (dude gives me PTSD from watching him torch us on 3rd down still) type that he can trust on 3rd and 4....How much would it cost i would say if we we can get him between 28-32 million on a 4 year deal seems fine to me...but probably will cost more

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I echo the comments here that 2 1s and 2 2s and 2 players is just too much.

 

Because right now you need a legit WR2, MLB, OLB, CB, RG, FS, TE, LT ...

 

Now not all of those are glaring holes. Two of them are addressed by re-signing Scherff and Darby. But beyond that, the other positions are immediate and long-term holes. Unless you get supremely lucky ... LT and WR typically require 1st and 2nd round picks to get legit starters. If you trade away multiple 1s and 2s, you are going to have a hard time finding internal talent there, and we all know that it's tough to bring in ohter team's talent and not overpay / get a return on value.

 

So if you trade 2021 and 2022 1st and a 2021 and 2022 2nd in addition to, say, Daron Payne and Montez Sweat, you may have the resources to backfill Payne, but suddenly you now add DE to your list of needs, which is another position that typically requires high-end picks to address.

 

Unless you can land Dak for free in Free Agency or have Lance or Fields fall down enough that you can target them in a trade-up, I am pretty much all-in on the team-build philosophy.

 

Use the 1/2/3/3 this year to get LT, WR, TE, LB ... sign a veteran/cheap/prove-it FS and a solid WR (Davis, Samuel?) ... keep some of the cap space to roll over into next year.

 

Figure out QB next year. And at that point, have very few holes to fill and give up picks if you must.

 

One more year of drafting and developing before we sell the farm for a QB.

[BruceAllenIsFootballGenius]

This is what would get Watson trade done

 

19th pick, 51st pick, 22’ 1st, 22’ 2nd, 23’ 1st, and Daron Payne

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

1 minute ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

at this juncture Dak is growing on me if he becomes a free agent, we dont give up any picks and he can play seems to have a good knowledge of the game just needs a cole beasly (dude gives me PTSD from watching him torch us on 3rd down still) type that he can trust on 3rd and 4....How much would it cost i would say if we we can get him between 28-32 million on a 4 year deal seems fine to me...but probably will cost more

 

I'm all-in on Dak. He doesn't cost draft capital if he hit FA. He probably WANTS to come here to spite Dallas. We could probably sign him to a 5 year $190m deal and still add 1 premier FA at WR (Curtis Samuel?) before heading into the draft to fill LT, WR, TE, LB, FS, etc.

 

And you have the cap flexibility that it won't cripple you. With $133m, $177m, $240m free over the next 3 yeras after 2021, you can absorb that high cap hit and have flexibility, especially if you continue to draft well (and prioritize keeping draft picks).

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

at this juncture Dak is growing on me if he becomes a free agent, we dont give up any picks and he can play seems to have a good knowledge of the game just needs a cole beasly (dude gives me PTSD from watching him torch us on 3rd down still) type that he can trust on 3rd and 4....How much would it cost i would say if we we can get him between 28-32 million on a 4 year deal seems fine to me...but probably will cost more

 

Dak is a huge gamble as well. The guy is coming off of a compound fracture and dislocation of his ankle. That's an absolutely devastating injury. Nobody knows whether he'll even be the same guy after he comes back. I don't get why people keep throwing Dak's name around as if he's just some FA who we'd have to pay big bucks to. He's a FA who can't even walk right now.

 

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Ok but even then the Browns had to use the #1 overall pick to get their QB. You want us to suck that bad again? I'm kinda over going 3-13. Hell I'm over going 7-9.

I'd rather go 2-14 and get to pick a blue chip QB prospect than be stuck around 8-8 for the next 5 years.

Edited February 1, 2021 by mistertim

[JamesMadisonSkins]

3 minutes ago, BruceAllenIsFootballGenius said:

This is what would get Watson trade done

 

19th pick, 51st pick, 22’ 1st, 22’ 2nd, 23’ 1st, and Daron Payne

 

 

Yep. And that would be pretty crippling. Not because you lose Daron Payne, but because you lose 5 "premier" picks to replace him and fill other holes. I'd rather gamble on a revitalization of Marcus Mariota or Sam Darnold while building a powerhouse team around them and taking mid-round fliers until we find someone that doesn't lose us games.

[Renegade7]

Ionnidas and Curl should be the two players we offer with the picks.  Theres no way Houston takes Collins contract from us, wishful thinking.

[kingdaddy]

2 minutes ago, BruceAllenIsFootballGenius said:

This is what would get Watson trade done

 

19th pick, 51st pick, 22’ 1st, 22’ 2nd, 23’ 1st, and Daron Payne

 

 

I think Houston is gonna want Kameron Curl and Sweat...plus two 1sts and a 2nd. No question about it they ask for Sweat if they know we won't trade Chase Young. Then, Curl makes sense if they think he's as good as we all do. Losing Sweat and Curl would be very difficult to overcome on defense in my opinion...but I'd bet everything they'd ask for Montez Sweat and I'll bet we'd include him if the deal was right.